LRL Finally Resolved - TFIC

[Kevo_DFX]

They are positive so the skeptics are on the negative side so they are the ones that are required to provide proof ..Art

Art,

You are wrong on this. I know it has been stated many times before, by EE, SWR, Ted, etc.; but just to reiterate:

It is the responsibility of the claimant to provide proof that their position is valid. The people that think LRL's are a fraud, do not have to prove anything. If I asserted that I had invented a bean that, when planted, would shoot a magical ladder up to heaven, it would be my responsibility to show proof that said bean actually existed and worked the way I described before expecting one dime from anyone for my magical bean.

From what I have seen (other than anecdotal evidence, which is not proof) the claimant(s) patently refuse to provide proof that LRL's work. That is why you have people challenging LRL and MFD "technology."

Regards,
Kevo

 

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[aarthrj3811]

~Kevo_DFX~
You are wrong on this. I know it has been stated many times before, by EE, SWR, Ted, etc.; but just to reiterate:

It is the responsibility of the claimant to provide proof that their position is valid. The people that think LRL's are a fraud, do not have to prove anything. If I asserted that I had invented a bean that, when planted, would shoot a magical ladder up to heaven, it would be my responsibility to show proof that said bean actually existed and worked the way I described before expecting one dime from anyone for my magical bean.

From what I have seen (other than anecdotal evidence, which is not proof) the claimant(s) patently refuse to provide proof that LRL's work. That is why you have people challenging LRL and MFD "technology."

You see that I do not think that you are correct..the claimant all state that every LRL and MFD’s made for treasure hunting are fraudulent. The claimants all state that anyone finding treasure with these devices are all liars. The claimants all state that all LRL’s and MFD’s are just dowsing rods. The claimants have not proved that any Manufacturer of LRL’s or MFD’s made for treasure hunters has been convicted of fraud by a jury..

The 67 Owner/Operators of LRL’s and MFD’s that have come on this board have only stated that they find treasure with their devices..We have ask which devices are fraudulent but all we get is all of them..

So please tell us why we are the claimants...Art

 

[aarthrj3811]

~SWR~I am truly sorry to hear that you had a stroke. I think you just cleared-up the big mystery of circular and illogical arguments... at least for me. I can now understand your repetitive postings of non-related links and comments. I can see now that the "us against them" attitude is justified, in your own mind... as you "battle" the anti-Fraudsters.

Thanks... after all of these years, for finally supplying some useful information.

Thank You SWR for you concerns...I have had a total of four stroke so far...I thank god every day for sparing me from any harm..the neurologist tell me that there is no damage except for a small flaw in my handwriting..as you can see there is no damage to my brain...Tough luck for you and the rest of my trolls..Art

 

[rwizard]

Thanks... after all of these years, for finally supplying some useful information.

Thank You SWR for you concerns...I have had a total of four stroke so far...I thank god every day for sparing me from any harm..the neurologist tell me that there is no damage except for a small flaw in my handwriting..as you can see there is no damage to my brain...Tough luck for you and the rest of my trolls..Art

Art,

Four strokes, wow. Don't sweat the handwriting, mine has been chicken scratch all my life, but that is why we have word processors. I'm truly glad you have survived all that. As for being tough luck for the trolls, we need you to stay around to spar with . Besides, we are friendly trolls with benign intent.

I guess our discussion has gotten a little side tracked, but that's okay. I'm still curious about your map dowsing, but we can talk about that another day.

I would like to share some thoughts with you, based on what little interchange we have had. I will try to approach this with the assumption that you are right, there is something to this, and that I am wrong, and obtuse to the things you rely on.

If there is anything happening in your LRL activities, I believe it is coming from you, not your gear. Perhaps it is skill and experience at work, perhaps it is some sort of unexplained and extraordinary perceptive ability, and maybe it is just dogged determination to succeed, combined with hard work.

But I do not believe your machines are doing anything, except perhaps giving you something to focus on, while you bring your own inner skills and efforts to bear. The need for a focus, or some sense of connectedness, can be well served with a willow branch, harvested for free. I hope you will give that a try next time, instead of giving your hard earned money to people who will smile, flatter you, and take large sums of money.

Consider this: Why should a tool you craft for yourself be any less effective than one they want money for? After all, if you are sensing the natural forces at work in the world, what better aid would there be than a simple, natural tool, selected by the guide of your own mind and heart, and carefully cut for the task by your own hand?

Wouldn't such a thing be more in tune with you and with nature than something hammered together by a stranger in a garage? Those who practice the Tarot will not even allow another person to handle their deck for fear of disrupting the sympathies created between them and the cards. How can something which reeks of the hot metals and chemicals which gave it birth be in tune with the delicate and subtle natural forces you believe are in play?

I'm not going to tell you your beliefs are wrong, you already know what I think, and I will never persuade you to think as I do. I'm just saying be true to the fundamental nature of your beliefs, and take the money grubbing middlemen out of the picture. I know you think I am ig-nor-ant (silly word filter) about the true nature of LRLs, and perhaps I am. But trust me in the things which I do know, which includes electronics. I am telling you as sincerely as I know how, the electronics in your LRLs are junk, and not contributing to you finding a thing. The magic, to the degree it exists, is in you, a creature of God's hand, not in your machines, which come from the hands of men, and men of doubtful character at that.

I wish you well, take care of yourself. I believe you indicated you were located in California, which is a long way from me. Unless you come out east to prospect I suppose I'll have to pass on your offer to try your machines - too bad, it could have been fun. Who knows, I might have ended up taking up LRLs and you might have sworn off of them forever . Yeah, probably not. Anyway, out of all the folks on your side of the fence, you were the only one with the guts to actually have a conversation, and I admire you for that.

Regards,
rwizard

Oh, wait, you're in Nevada - maybe you said something about prospecting in California? Oh well, you're still a long way off.

 

[rwizard]

One last thing, I just got off the phone with Salma Hayek, and she says while we are all an extraordinarily handsome group of folks, we're just not her type. It seems she prefers stamp collectors to detectorists and LRL'ers. Go figure.

 

[aarthrj3811]

If there is anything happening in your LRL activities, I believe it is coming from you, not your gear. Perhaps it is skill and experience at work, perhaps it is some sort of unexplained and extraordinary perceptive ability, and maybe it is just dogged determination to succeed combined with hard work.

I have spent hours practicing and testing with my devices.. I do use my experience and knowledge of where gold should be to get me in the area

But I do not believe your machines are doing anything, except perhaps giving you something to focus on, while you bring your own inner skills and efforts to bear. The need for a focus, or some sense of connectedness, can be well served with a willow branch, harvested for free. I hope you will give that a try next time, instead of giving your hard earned money to people who will smile, flatter you, and take large sums of money.

When using my device I do not think about what I am doing...I think about a movie I saw or the fun I have had a party...Any thing but what I am trying to accomplish. I am a fair dowser but with a set of Dowsing rods I can not get the information that the Ranger tell gives me..When I get out of the car I look at the terrain...I then set the device up..I set the distance, the depth that I am willing to walk and dig that day..then I do my search. I have my own set of searching rules that I always follow...an example is that if there were 100 bars of gold in an old mine or a natural cave I don’t want to know where they are..Why ..because I know I will not go into a cave or mine for any amount of gold.

Consider this: Why should a tool you craft for yourself be any less effective than one they want money for? After all, if you are sensing the natural forces at work in the world, what better aid would there be than a simple, natural tool, selected by the guide of your own mind and heart, and carefully cut for the task by your own hand.

I know that when I am using my Dowsing rods I am sensing the natural signals from the target. When using a LRL I am using the signal made by the LRL that goes to the target...Two different kinds of signals..An example would be..Stand on a natural singnal line with the rods closed. Lift a foot of the ground and the rods will open just like you just shut the power off..while standing on a signal line produced by a LRL and lift a foot and the rods will stay closed

Wouldn't such a thing be more in tune with you and with nature than something hammered together by a stranger in a garage? Those who practice the Tarot will not even allow another person to handle their deck for fear of disrupting the sympathies created between them and the cards. How can something which reeks of the hot metals and chemicals which gave it birth be in tune with the delicate and subtle natural forces you believe are in play?

I do not believe that there are any natural forces involed in using a LRL..

I'm not going to tell you your beliefs are wrong, you already know what I think, and I will never persuade you to think as I do. I'm just saying be true to the fundamental nature of your beliefs, and take the money grubbing middlemen out of the picture. I know you think I am ig-nor-ant (silly word filter) about the true nature of LRLs, and perhaps I am. But trust me in the things which I do know, which includes electronics. I am telling you as sincerely as I know how, the electronics in your LRLs are junk, and not contributing to you finding a thing. The magic, to the degree it exists, is in you, a creature of God's hand, not in your machines, which come from the hands of men, and men of doubtful character at that.

I wish you well, take care of yourself. I believe you indicated you were located in California, which is a long way from me. Unless you come out east to prospect I suppose I'll have to pass on your offer to try your machines - too bad, it could have been fun. Who knows, I might have ended up taking up LRLs and you might have sworn off of them forever . Yeah, probably not. Anyway, out of all the folks on your side of the fence, you were the only one with the guts to actually have a conversation, and I admire you for that.

I now live in Nevada..the money grubbing government chased me out of California...this is America and you can believe any thing that you want to..You are what I call a good skeptic..We can discuss the subject without ticking each other off..thank You ..Art

 

[Kevo_DFX]

Art,

I really didn't want to get in a discussion with you. Your inability to accept basic fundamental principles makes civil discourse impossible. Things like "burden of proof" and "double blind testing" are not up for debate, they are what they are. Yet you continue to argue about these, because the subject we should be discussing, LRL's, are nothing more than claptrap designed by thieves.

Even your own explanations don't make sense, in the same post! i.e:

When using my device I do not think about what I am doing...I think about a movie I saw or the fun I have had a party...Any thing but what I am trying to accomplish. I am a fair dowser but with a set of Dowsing rods I can not get the information that the Ranger tell gives me..When I get out of the car I look at the terrain...I then set the device up..I set the distance, the depth that I am willing to walk and dig that day..then I do my search. I have my own set of searching rules that I always follow...an example is that if there were 100 bars of gold in an old mine or a natural cave I don’t want to know where they are..Why ..because I know I will not go into a cave or mine for any amount of gold.

When using a LRL I am using the signal made by the LRL that goes to the target

If LRL's use a man-made signal, why the heck does it matter what you're thinking about, or if you "want" to find something or not. It's absolutely absurd. That's like me saying: "Before I start my day metal detecting, I say to my detector 'Honey, please, no pull-tabs today'"

I mean, come on.

*washing hands* I'm done. sheesh.

Kevo

 

[aarthrj3811]

If LRL's use a man-made signal, why the heck does it matter what you're thinking about, or if you "want" to find something or not. It's absolutely absurd. That's like me saying: "Before I start my day metal detecting, I say to my detector 'Honey, please, no pull-tabs today'"

I mean, come on.

*washing hands* I'm done. sheesh.

Kevo

Could it be that if you try to mental Dowse while using an electronic device you will be will always fail.

By the way Kevo..there are people who mental dowse using conventional metal detector and there are people who use conventional metal detectors to follow the signal lines produced by LRL’s..art

 

[EE THr]

Art---

If you "don't think about what you are doing," when "using any electronic device," that could be the very reason that your posts turn out the way they do.

Think about it.




...Just sayin'....

 

[aarthrj3811]

Art---

If you "don't think about what you are doing," when "using any electronic device," that could be the very reason that your posts turn out the way they do.
Think about it.
...Just sayin'....

Sorry EE that you do not understand what we are discussing
~Art~

When using my device I do not think about what I am doing...I think about a movie I saw or the fun I have had a party...Any thing but what I am trying to accomplish..

Valadation

 

[rwizard]

That's like me saying: "Before I start my day metal detecting, I say to my detector 'Honey, please, no pull-tabs today'"

Hmmm, maybe I should try that next time I go out to the beach!

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey rwizard..Those of us that have been around here for a long time see all the problems with conventional matal detectors and the solutions that some have come up with..Yes they are minor complains like having to dig 100’s of pull tabs to recover a gold ring.
There are people who take up to 2 years to find out how to use the one they own..It is no big deal but LRL users are not allowed to have any problems..Art

 

[rwizard]

I now live in Nevada..the money grubbing government chased me out of California...this is America and you can believe any thing that you want to..You are what I call a good skeptic..We can discuss the subject without ticking each other off..thank You ..Art

Yeah, the government, they're here to help you. I bet we can at least agree on some things in that arena. I've never been to Nevada. If I ever get myself a TDI maybe I'll come out there and we can have a MD vs. LRL contest .

You mentioned that you don't know much about electronics. But anybody who goes around doing the stuff you do must have an inquisitive mind, so I want to make you aware of something. MIT has made many courses available for free on the web. They cover a wide range of subjects, but science and electronics are among them. Some of them are pretty advanced topics, but they also have some introductory level stuff that would be good starting out. Next time the weather has you indoors (like the heat we have had here lately) you might enjoy watching some of the videos. (And yes, I'm trying to sneak up on you with my point of view, but I still think you might find it interesting to learn some electronics.)

Here is the link, and while you can donate if you want to, it is all free, as in "free beer": http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

Regards.

 

[rwizard]

Hey rwizard..Those of us that have been around here for a long time see all the problems with conventional matal detectors and the solutions that some have come up with..Yes they are minor complains like having to dig 100’s of pull tabs to recover a gold ring.
There are people who take up to 2 years to find out how to use the one they own..It is no big deal but LRL users are not allowed to have any problems..Art

Art,

I understand how you feel, and I know sometimes this seems to you like a Ford vs Chevy argument. But that is not what it is for those of us who raise an alarm about the nature of LRLs.

For us, it has nothing to do with metal detecting. It has to do with people being separated from their hard earned cash, and the fact that the "electronics" in an LRL have no purpose other than to persuade people that some science (knowledge) is behind the device. I wish we were geographically closer so that I could spend some time taking you through the specifics. The signal that you talk about going out from your LRL does not exist. If it is actually radiating a signal over a distance of many miles then an FCC type approval would be required. Depending on frequency and power, licensing might also be an issue. But those things aren't in play, because there is no signal of any consequence from the device.

We aren't knocking your choice of Chevy or Ford, we are trying to warn you that the dealer is selling you a car without an engine. That is what this is about.


As far as the limitations of metal detectors, no one denies there are limitations. But those limitations are imposed by physical laws, and those laws apply to any device, even LRLs.

If I had a way to project a uniform 11.7 Tesla magnetic field across the countryside and into the depths of the Earth, I could use NMRS (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy) and would then, in fact, be able to do much of what dealers claim for LRL. But that is physically not possible, and if it were, the unintended consequences would be horrific. (the Earth's magnetic field is only 31-58 µT, or 0.000003760683761 as strong)

Short of that, unless you want to theorize that there is some magical force at work which we do not perceive or understand, LRLs cannot work. And if we cannot perceive or understand such a force, how is it that a simple circuit can be designed to tap onto it?

Anyway, I didn't mean to revisit all of this, and I do realize you aren't persuaded by this. I would like you to know, however, that we aren't trying to say "our toys are better than your toys". It just isn't about that for us. If it feels that way to you, I can see why you get upset by the critical remarks about LRL. Many of us are used to working in environments where hard fought debate, testing of our theories, and critical review by our peers, are tools used to arrive at truth, and what seems like an effort to "Get it right" to us, probably feels like being mugged to you. For that I am sorry.

Thanks again for talking with us. I have enjoyed the exchange. I'll probably sign off now unless something requires a response. Again, my thanks.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey rwizard...I am not ignorant about electronics.. just behind about the current technology..The last things I worked on were call “flow through logic” on Reed Injection Molding Machines...To be honest I have never owned a piece of mining equipment that did not have a learning curve....Either I had to fix it or modify it so it would do what I wanted it too...When your working 30 miles from the nearest road you can not make any money when the equipment is not operating.. I had a new dredge one year with twin Honda engines...The engines would shut down by themselves but would start back up..It was driving me crazy..I had to determine when this problem started. It started after I had put more angle on the sluice..So I reduced the angle on the sluice and they ran good but were not catching all the gold...The problem was the low oil sensors. So I took them out and plugged the holes with wood..When the helicopter made it’s next fuel and supply delivery it brought me the proper plugs..That is how treasure hunting works...If you can not think on your feet you are not going to be successful..Art

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

----------------5th ------------- listening, sorry that I missed you Rwizard.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gallileo60]

As for truth, it was said that Man will never fly, we will never be able to go into outer space, anything heavier than water will not float. Just a few of truths that were not truths afterall. The only thing I can't give you is proof.
I could tell you all about these LRL 's and how they are supposed to work. I could also tell you how any metal detector works. If theory is all you want, then I suggest you buy a book that expalins it. I am not saying you all are not educated, just the opposite. I respect anyone who has gone through colledge and gotten a degree, and have many close friends who have BS, EE, and various other degrees. But having a specialized degree in one subject does not constitute knowing anything about another one. The ones who first discovered the secret, designed a device to work with it and have maintained that secret up until now. I don't know how they would react if they found out I was revealing their secret. All I need to do is establish how much you know before revealing their operation, thus the questions I need to ask pertain to earth sciences. Here is the first.Does the earth have a polarity,if so what is is it? rockhound

There is NO secret, we know what is inside of these devices, and it is pure 100 percent BS....Yes the Earth has polarity, it varies depending on location....How anyone in this day, and age can believe in these "magic" boxes, that can find ANYTHING you want them to is beyond me.....The only time they find money, is when some one takes their bill fold out, and buys one.....Testimonials do not mean jack.....

 

[aarthrj3811]

~gallileo60~

There is NO secret, we know what is inside of these devises, and it is pure 100 percent BS....Yes the Earth has polarity, it varies depending on location....How anyone in this day, and age can believe in these "magic" boxes, that can find ANYTHING you want them to is beyond me.....The only time they find money, is when some one takes their bill fold out, and buys one.....Testimonials do not mean jack.....

Gee Gallieo...That seems to be the same story we hear from a lot of Electronic people...In my opinion it looks like there are only about a 100 or so electronic people who know how to put all the coils and doodad’s in the proper order to find treasure. When it comes to the 100’s of Testimonials I see them as people who are enjoying the results from their devices and putting their experiences on the internet along with some of what they have found..Art

 

[gallileo60]

~gallileo60~

There is NO secret, we know what is inside of these devises, and it is pure 100 percent BS....Yes the Earth has polarity, it varies depending on location....How anyone in this day, and age can believe in these "magic" boxes, that can find ANYTHING you want them to is beyond me.....The only time they find money, is when some one takes their bill fold out, and buys one.....Testimonials do not mean jack.....

Gee Gallieo...That seems to be the same story we hear from a lot of Electronic people...In my opinion it looks like there are only about a 100 or so electronic people who know how to put all the coils and doodad’s in the proper order to find treasure. When it comes to the 100’s of Testimonials I see them as people who are enjoying the results from their devices and putting their experiences on the internet along with some of what they have found..Art

Hey Art, I don't have anything against tinkering, and making things..I also do not care how others spend their money, or how they hunt..I am merely stating my opinion, based on having seen photos of what is under the lid on these devices...I do not care what order you put parts together in a box like this, there is no way (Unless there is some secret force) that these things will find Gold, or much less Paper Money..That is ludicrous....Do you not believe that if such a thing were true the good ol government would not have milked every last bit of gold out of the ground...If anyone could ever give a rational explanation on how, and why these devices are able to find "ANYTHING" you want them to find, I would be glad to listen....It seems there are so many things that disrupt them..My Metal Detectors work great unless I am in, or around the field from hi tension lines, AND I know why....I know you only have to convince yourself, and not anyone else...I for one enjoy reading everyone of you guys post.....Every now, and then I just have to jump in, and stir the pot... HH.....Tom

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey Tom...There are thousands of LRL owner/users that have done more than look inside of the boxes..they have read the instructions and practiced how to use them..They have then went into the field and located and recovered treasure..100’s have posted their finds and how they recovered them on the internet. So non electronic people, Dowsers and non Dowsers will continue to purchase these devices and enjoy their hobby..Art