LUE MAP THEORY, MAYBE SOME CONTEXT

[mdog]

Does anybody know the places where LUE caches were said to be found? Thank you.

 

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[Randy Bradford]

Alleged locations revealed over the years:

Karl published a letter from Mary Lou Karsten Phillips in NPG Vol 11 No. 3 (Feb-May 1981) where the following locations are indicated (Karl prints this, does not dispute any of it)
*San Francisco Peak,
*Elizabethtown,
*Black Lake,
*Mora,
*Romeroville,
*"further north somewhere near Salida [CO]

Karl would confirm some of these in an Ask Exanimo column published in the April 1981 issue of Western Eastern Treasures:
*San Francisco Peak in Colorado,
*Black Lake
*Mora
*Carrizozo.

There is some confusion about the San Francisco Peak site, though he clarified to Boyd Jolley in the June 1991 issue of Treasure magazine noting the site was at "San Francisco Peak near San Francisco pass." [CO]. Also in the same issue, Karl notes (to Boyd Jolley): "The caches at Black Lake and south of Mora have been cleaned out. I know nothing about the cache area at Elizabethtown,...and how much has been removed from the area around San
Francisco is unknown to me."

In a letter to Larry Goddard, Karl wrote of a site SE of Trinidad [CO], noting he got "run out" of the site. He never published this one, perhaps because he was never able to confirm it on site.
In separate letters to Johnny Pounds, Milton Rose and Larry Goddard, Karl mentions San Luis Valley as a cache point for the LUE, he indicates he felt this was the area Patrick Donnell's father, Jim, was looking for the LUE. Karl mentions the recovery at San Francisco Peak being near San Luis Valley, so these in fact may be the same recovery site.

I have a letter here from Karl to Michael Paul Henson, I where he also mentions a recovery at Amaya, New Mexico.

Randy

 

[sdcfia]

Alleged locations revealed over the years:

Karl published a letter from Mary Lou Karsten Phillips in NPG Vol 11 No. 3 (Feb-May 1981) where the following locations are indicated (Karl prints this, does not dispute any of it)
*San Francisco Peak,
*Elizabethtown,
*Black Lake,
*Mora,
*Romeroville,
*"further north somewhere near Salida [CO]

Karl would confirm some of these in an Ask Exanimo column published in the April 1981 issue of Western Eastern Treasures:
*San Francisco Peak in Colorado,
*Black Lake
*Mora
*Carrizozo.

There is some confusion about the San Francisco Peak site, though he clarified to Boyd Jolley in the June 1991 issue of Treasure magazine noting the site was at "San Francisco Peak near San Francisco pass." [CO]. Also in the same issue, Karl notes (to Boyd Jolley): "The caches at Black Lake and south of Mora have been cleaned out. I know nothing about the cache area at Elizabethtown,...and how much has been removed from the area around San
Francisco is unknown to me."

In a letter to Larry Goddard, Karl wrote of a site SE of Trinidad [CO], noting he got "run out" of the site. He never published this one, perhaps because he was never able to confirm it on site.
In separate letters to Johnny Pounds, Milton Rose and Larry Goddard, Karl mentions San Luis Valley as a cache point for the LUE, he indicates he felt this was the area Patrick Donnell's father, Jim, was looking for the LUE. Karl mentions the recovery at San Francisco Peak being near San Luis Valley, so these in fact may be the same recovery site.

I have a letter here from Karl to Michael Paul Henson, I where he also mentions a recovery at Amaya, New Mexico.

Randy

Another full circle trip here.

For me, the primary problem with this treasure trove legend is the allegation of so many diverse locations/"recoveries" for one tale. Whether intentional or not, it smells strongly of disinformation. To what depth? Caveat emptor. By the way, for clarity, there is a Francisco Peak four miles north of Culebra Peak, and "Amaya" does not appear on any maps or place name databases in New Mexico. Sounds like a Hispanic name/surname.

If there is any truth at all to the original history - and "Karl"s knowledge of it - and if I were to spend time on a search, I would assume there is a single cache/hidden mine somewhere in the vicinity of the upper Pugatoire River watershed. Possibly a KGC site vis-a-vis the TOTVOS anomaly. The remainder of the list of "LUE" sites sounds like a mishmash of other separate tales or simply unadulterated BS.

Unfortunately, "Karl" was the primary pusher of the "LUE". "Karl" may have been a KGC asset, knowingly or not. To all who have solved the riddle and made recoveries - congratulations. For me, mdog's map work is a very interesting twist to the whole shebang.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Amaya came from a two-sided letter where the ink bled through and was my best guess...it may also refer to a ghost town...I'll try and crop that part of the letter and post it and see what folks think.

 

[Randy Bradford]

 

[sdcfia]

View attachment 2146398

He must have been referring to Francisco Peak in the Sangre de Cristos, just north of Culebra Peak. In fact, claiming it was in the San Luis Valley seems to indicate it was on the western slope.

It would take some personal inquiries to validate the following from ChatGPT (just sayin'):

"Yes, there was indeed a mining camp near Elizabethtown, New Mexico, called Anaya. Elizabethtown itself was a bustling mining town in the late 19th century due to the presence of gold mines in the area. Anaya was one of several smaller mining camps or settlements that sprang up in the vicinity as part of the mining boom."

 

[Randy Bradford]

You all might find this interesting as well:
This was part of a discussion thread on the LUE on another thread on Treasurenet. Originally posted by aw11mr2 at:

https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/lue-clue-the-obit-of-hardrock-hammond.520733/page-5#post-5786777

Hands down one of the best threads I've ever seen in terms of succinctly talking about the LUE locations.
* * * * * * *
I found a piece of information that might be coincidental or related to the LUE in The Treasure Hunter’s Manual, 7th Edition, Chapter VI, HOW. There is a story titled New Mexican $$$ provided as an example how to research a treasure project. The project begins in Las Vegas, New Mexico and continues north to an area west of Trinidad, Colorado. The treasure lead starts with a cave discovered by kids in 1899 near Tecelote Creek, west of Las Vegas, New Mexico. The cave contained old documents believed to be related to mission activities. The cave was later investigated and apparently enough gold was removed that the discoverers agreed “to not take any more gold from the cave unless it was needed, and it was never needed.” Based on this story, a group got together to investigate the tale. Their research indicated that there were several caves in the area and the site was likely on private property. The project moved on to research three potential mission sites.

1. “Near the old town of Las Colonas (on the Rio de La Vaco fork of the Pecos river)” , “. . . at the foot of El Barro Peak.”

2. “Near Guadalupita on the old Mora Grant (north of the present city of Mora).”

3. “Near the Colorado-New Mexico state line on the old Taos-Trinidad road.” The locations of the mission/church/town sites in this area were described in relation to the former town of Catskill (platted in 1890).
The former town of Catskill was situated at the end of the Denver Texas & Fort Worth railroad spur line from Trinidad, CO to the Canadian River in New Mexico.

The description of the payoff is what really interested me. Although the group found one of seven potential sites, they still recovered 390 ounces of gold nuggets and dust! Karl von Mueller mentions that one of the sites investigated might be related to the Rutledge or Bloomington, Nebraska treasure (money, gold ingots and nuggets) discussed in The Treasure Hunter’s Manual, 6th Edition.

Plotting these sites on a map shows a general north-south trend in the Sangre de Cristo Mountains and potential relationship with the Continental Divide in southwest New Mexico.

Near Salida, CO – Potential cache area (Randy Bradford’s Treasurenet.com forum post (Nov. 27, 2016): 1981 issue (Vol.? No.?) of National Prospector’s Gazette - May Lou Karsting Phillips to Karl von Mueller)

Former Spanish Fort in CO – Example of early Spanish occupation in Colorado. In the text that accompanies Historic Trail Map of Trinidad 1° x 2° Quadrangle, USGS Investigation Geologic Series I-2745 (Available online): “Fort Sangre de Cristo, Malagres Fort, built in 1819 by Governor Don Facundo Malagres about 3(?) miles northeast of Sangre de Cristo Pass.” Also see pages 30-32 of History of Upper Huerfano Valley by Jeannette F. Thach, Colorado Magazine, Vol. 38 No. 1, January 1961 (Available online).

West of Rye, CO – LUE Cave of Gold (PatrickD’s Treasurenet.com forum post): Possibly the nearest town to the Blue Lake cache near Greenhorn Mountain.

Near Conejos Peak, CO – Rock carving containing similar symbols found on the LUE map (Treasure of the Valley of Secrets, Deek Gladson, 1971)

Treasure of the Valley of Secrets – West of Trinidad, Colorado, near the headwater of Purgatoire River. I have no idea of the location and stuck a pin near the headwaters of the North fork of the Purgatoire River. (The Scarlet Shadow, Walter Hurt, 1907 and Treasure Hunter’s Manual #6, revised 1973)

San Francisco Peak, CO – Potential cache area (1981 NPG: May Lou Karsting Phillips to KvM) (Randy Bradford’s Treasurenet.com forum post (Nov. 27, 2016): Karl von Mueller in a 1981 issue (Vol.? No.?) of Western & Eastern Treasures magazine): Teasurenet member “Mdog” asked (Dec. 10, 2016) where San Francisco Peak was located. I couldn’t locate a Colorado peak, however, west of Trinidad, less than 13 miles apart from one another, are two San Francisco passes and a Francisco Peak.

San Francisco Pass – 9,150 feet. Trends north-south “From Bonita Canyon Branch of Vallejos Creek to North Fork of Vermejo River, Las Animas County.”
Location shown on Historic Trail Map of Trinidad 1° x 2° Quadrangle (Includes a pamphlet that accompany map), Glenn R. Scott, 2001, USGS Geologic Investigation Series I-274.
Lat. N37° 1’ 29.1” Long. W105° 5’ 56.5” (WGS84)

San Francisco Pass (Costilla Pass) – “Separates Ricardo Creek from San Francisco Creek, on Culebra Range of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains, Costilla County.”
Location shown on Historic Trail Map of Trinidad 1° x 2° Quadrangle, USGS Geologic Investigation Series I-2745.
Lat. N37° 1’ 20.7” Long. W105° 15’ 54.9” (WGS84)

Francisco Peak - Elevation: 13, 135 feet. Lat. N37° 10’ 56.05” Long. W105° 59’ 57.95” (WGS84)

Potential source of the Rutledge/Bloomington Treasure - Gold ingots and nuggets buried on the Rutledge property in Bloomington, Nebraska (Treasure Hunter’s Manual #7, 1966).

Catskill, NM – Former gold camp and later a lumber camp (THM #7).
Lat. N36° 56’ 23.07” Long. W104° 48’ 25.94” (WGS84)

Elizabethtown, NM – Potential cache area (1981 NPG - May Phillips to KvM)

West side of Taos, NM – LUE cache (silver bars) recovery (PatrickD)

Black Lake, NM – LUE cache (partial recovery?) (1981 NPG - May Phillips to KvM) (KvM in 1981 W&E Treasures) (PatrickD)

Guadalupita, NM – Church site (THM #7)

Mora, NM – Potential cache area (1981 NPG - May Phillips to KvM) (KvM in 1981 W&E Treasures)

Near La Cueva, NM – Rock carving containing similar symbols found on the LUE map (TotVoS).

Near Tecolote Creek, NM – Potential church gold cache hidden in cave west of Las Vegas, NM (THM #7).

Romeroville, NM – Potential cache area (1981 NPG - May Phillips to KvM)

Los Colonas, NM – Church site (THM #7)

Carrizozo, NM – Potential cache area (KvM in 1981 W&E Treasures)

South of Black Peak, NM – Potential Spanish(?) cache site (New Mexico Confidential – 30 Years of Snooping in Obscure Places, Stephen D. Clark, 2013)

Lordsburg, NM – LUE Cave of Gold (PatrickD): Possibly cited because it is the largest commonly known town near the Hachita Peak cache and Big Hatchet Mountains cave of gold sites.

 

[Randy Bradford]

The original post of the above has better, larger versions of the attached maps for those interested. I've tried making a master list of LUE threads before but you lose the ability to edit after a certain time period which makes updating a "master thread" impossible.

That said, there's a lot of interesting stuff out there (and a lot of trash, unfortunately) if you have the time and patience to sift threads for it.

 

[mdog]

Randy Bradford and sdcfia, thank you very much for the excellent information.

I'm working on my theory about the overlay. It seems like you might be able to slide the starting point down the 105deg W longitude. I still have to do a lot of work before I know for sure.

Thanks again to both of you.

Was there something about Mesa Uraca that includes it in the LUE legend?

 

[Randy Bradford]

Was there something about Mesa Uraca that includes it in the LUE legend?

Nothing specific but there are some interesting bits of connective tissue.
"Its name [LUE] was coined from the first three words that appeared on the map: “Lloro, Urraca and Enterrari.”

This was noted many times by Karl in his writings and poses a somewhat confusing clue. Karl's original version of the LUE from the 1966 THM #7 was noted as an exact copy of the map. Clearly these words are not on the map. This means either Karl lied, Karl was mistaken, OR, and I like to believe this, it was written on the back of the map. This is the most deliberate form of speculation on my part, of course.

Interestingly, Uracca Mesa is only about 50 miles from Black Lake, though much, muck closer as the Eagle flies (not to be confused with Eagle's Nest).

Uracca Mesa has been owned by the Boy Scouts who own a large tract of land down that way. I tend to wonder if the Scouts will sell the property in the wake of their bankruptcy.

Regarding the interpretation of “Lloro, Urraca and Enterrari”, I reprint the following from my presentation transcript:

Now he [Boyd Jolley] claimed that he had a letter from Karl von Mueller that suggested that the LUE was based
on the words “Lloro, Urraca and Enterrari”. You’ll have to pardon me, Spanish is not my second language. And if we Look at sort of the meanings of those words, I googled this. Spanish (for Lloro) is to cry or to weep. Urraca is a proper name, I believe a woman's name, but it's derived from the Latin “thievish” and interestingly enough in the actual sort of LUE recovery area there is a Mesa called Urraca [Uracca is also translated to English as Magpie]. And then Enterrari, is to bury or to inter. So if you string it all together it potentially means “Urraca cries because it is buried.”

 

[mdog]

Nothing specific but there are some interesting bits of connective tissue.
"Its name [LUE] was coined from the first three words that appeared on the map: “Lloro, Urraca and Enterrari.”

This was noted many times by Karl in his writings and poses a somewhat confusing clue. Karl's original version of the LUE from the 1966 THM #7 was noted as an exact copy of the map. Clearly these words are not on the map. This means either Karl lied, Karl was mistaken, OR, and I like to believe this, it was written on the back of the map. This is the most deliberate form of speculation on my part, of course.

Interestingly, Uracca Mesa is only about 50 miles from Black Lake, though much, muck closer as the Eagle flies (not to be confused with Eagle's Nest).

Uracca Mesa has been owned by the Boy Scouts who own a large tract of land down that way. I tend to wonder if the Scouts will sell the property in the wake of their bankruptcy.

Regarding the interpretation of “Lloro, Urraca and Enterrari”, I reprint the following from my presentation transcript:

Now he [Boyd Jolley] claimed that he had a letter from Karl von Mueller that suggested that the LUE was based
on the words “Lloro, Urraca and Enterrari”. You’ll have to pardon me, Spanish is not my second language. And if we Look at sort of the meanings of those words, I googled this. Spanish (for Lloro) is to cry or to weep. Urraca is a proper name, I believe a woman's name, but it's derived from the Latin “thievish” and interestingly enough in the actual sort of LUE recovery area there is a Mesa called Urraca [Uracca is also translated to English as Magpie]. And then Enterrari, is to bury or to inter. So if you string it all together it potentially means “Urraca cries because it is buried.”

Thank you Randy.