Metal Detecting Pennsylvania State Parks/Gamelands

[Ian Gerhard]

Does anyone know the truth about hunting these areas? Anyone with experience in Northeast PA?

 

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[jeff of pa]

I may also remind the individual the THers pay taxes too,

I see this mentioned on occasion, but be aware.
PA state game land is Privately owned.
they do not get Money from Government programs.
All monies are received through Licensing, Fines, Etc.
they are a business

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

......With that said; I have hunted PA state parks and game lands and forests since 1970.... ...I never have been ask to leave or told it was illegal....

Dirt-dodger, some people might look at that statement, and figure ...... it's a non-issue, and no one cares (as evidenced by having simply gone for all those years). But on the contrary, do you know why you've never been told that "it was illegal"? : Because you didn't ask enough desk-bound bureaucrats "can I?".

And if you had gotten a "yes" from one of them, then go above his head, and ask higher and higher up the chain of command. Be sure to show up with a shovel in your hand, while dropping buzz-words like "arpa" "treasure", "lawsuits", "holes", etc... (lest they not understand the full implications of your question).

Now go do the "right thing" and ask. Make us all proud

 

[DirtDodger]

Now go do the "right thing" and ask. Make us all proud

First, I should not have to ask permission for a activity that is not prohibited by regs. I paid for these lands as much as the bikers, hunters, fisherman, hikers etc...and should be able to use them as much as they. Do you ask for permission every time you hunted a local park? It is crazzzy to ask for something that is not defined in the regulations, it is not like detecting is new, it’s been around long enough for them to specifically prohibited it.

Second, I was referring specifically to state owned lands, not leased lands. I should have mention it.

Third, I am not here to make you or anyone else proud.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

Owww.... just tripped over Tom's damn soap box again.

Seriously, we are talking about laws that can get people's metal detectors confiscated and have them thrown in jail! Do you not care at all about who you put in danger with your ridiculous need to troll these boards trying to get anyone and everyone to stop asking for permission?

Asking permission did not get this "right" taken away (and I use that term loosely). People digging and not filling holes, poaching minerals/rocks/artifacts, and being a general pain in the butt is what got the right to detect taken away.

And people do not have a "right" to detect just because they pay taxes. I can't detect in the Oval Office even though I pay taxes. You pay taxes to the government while giving them the "right" to make arbitrary rules about what you can and cannot do on public lands. Don't like it, vote them out of office. Otherwise, it is usually a very poor idea to remind any law enforcement entity that you "pay taxes".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Treasurepirate69, Just curious ... why hasn't dirt-dodger been arrested , thrown in jail , and had confiscation? Afterall, he's been doing it there for 38 years without asking. Hmmm how about you dirt-dodger , maybe you can tell us how you did it?

 

[DirtDodger]

I did not say not to ask permission where there is some question whether it is permitted.
I even stated that certain areas where it was not permitted.

So I am trolling these broads... thanks for your informed opinion...

I have the right to use those lands as much as everyone else as long as the activity is not prohibiited. Please note none of the regs even mention detecting so why should I or anyone asked to do something no other groups (hunters, hikers etc.. ) are required to do? They could very easy include that as a prohibited activity if they chose to, they haven't. Park regs list many things prohibited such as hunting, they could easily add detecting.

The WH arguement is plain stupid. Please follow thread, it was talking about only PA State forests, game and parks lands...
ONLY.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

So you are going to take what could potentially be an edge case and use that to justify telling people to risk their detectors by detecting somewhere that has been clearly specified as being off limits? I bet there are drug dealers out there who have been dealing drugs for 38 years and never got caught too. But I would hesitate to tell someone to get into drug dealing rationalizing that it must be safe given the handful of edge cases that seem to get by with it. Just because someone has done it for a long time without asking and didn't get arrested doesn't mean they won't get arrested on the very next time they go out. And just because one person doesn't get arrested doesn't mean the next person won't. Maybe dirt-dodger is buddies with the local ranger. Maybe the next guy will simply rub the ranger the wrong way. These rangers have been known for busting someone just because they don't like the way they were dressed. Telling someone to risk it is beyond ridiculous.

I've seen you say before that if it is posted or if you know ahead of time that a law exists that you shouldn't break that law. But then you go on to show that you do nothing but talk out of both sides of your mouth. Seriously, your rants are getting very tiresome and borderline on dangerous. This is the second time in as many days that I've busted your chops for telling people to break a law that they know exists. Do you have no shame? Or does your desire to champion your "cause" outweigh the safety of the members you "advise"?

 

[DirtDodger]

Treasurepirate69, Just curious ... why hasn't dirt-dodger been arrested , thrown in jail , and had confiscation? Afterall, he's been doing it there for 38 years without asking. Hmmm how about you dirt-dodger , maybe you can tell us how you did it?

All I can say is I hunted many state parks, state forests and game lands while the rangers were there. None every asked ask us (me & my dad) to leave. Some would ask how we were doing and if we were finding much. We always took the time to educate them and tell them how much trash we picked up, not just metal trash but all trash. We even got additional information on the places and where we mught want to look.

Still, remember we did not hunt the beach areas during swimming hours or other place during busy times. We picked off times, early spring, late fall.

Also, please remember, I pointed out that I would not argue the point if ask to leave. I have a hard time believing that one of them would ticket you or try to take your equipment... if you left when asked...

One last thought, although I hunted almost every park and state area in central PA, I can honestly say I never found that much at them. They were not that good of spots.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

I did not say not to ask permission where there is some question whether it is permitted.
I even stated that certain areas where it was not permitted.

So I am trolling these broads... thanks for your informed opinion...

I have the right to use those lands as much as everyone else as long as the activity is not prohibiited. Please note none of the regs even mention detecting so why should I or anyone asked to do something no other groups (hunters, hikers etc.. ) are required to do? They could very easy include that as a prohibited activity if they chose to, they haven't. Park regs list many things prohibited such as hunting, they could easily add detecting.

The WH arguement is plain stupid. Please follow thread, it was talking about only PA State forests, game and parks lands...
ONLY.

You might want to take note that I was talking to TOM! But don't let that stop you.

the White House argument is not stupid. It shows that just because you pay taxes doesn't mean you have the right to detect wherever you want. This includes schools, parks, state forests, and any other "public" lands that so many people think they have a right to use.

As far as whether or not detecting needs to be specifically mentioned that is just a cop out that detectorists use to try and justify their actions. Newsflash, using a backhoe, using an auger, gold prospecting, dredging, and many other actions are not mentioned either. That doesn't make them any more legal. Laws do not have to be specified to that extent. Laws like this are left vague to allow for interpretation. It is up to the ranger/judge to determine whether or not you have violated the law. If you want to take that risk then that is your business. I'm certainly not here to stop you. My biggest beef is that Tom is once again using this thread as his own personal soap box to try and twist people's understanding of the law to suit his needs.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

All I can say is I hunted many state parks, state forests and game lands while the rangers were there. None every asked ask us (me & my dad) to leave. Some would ask how we were doing and if we were finding much. We always took the time to educate them and tell them how much trash we picked up, not just metal trash but all trash. We even got additional information on the places and where we mught want to look.

Still, remember we did not hunt the beach areas during swimming hours or other place during busy times. We picked off times, early spring, late fall.

Also, please remember, I pointed out that I would not argue the point if ask to leave. I have a hard time believing that one of them would ticket you or try to take your equipment... if you left when asked...

One last thought, although I hunted almost every park and state area in central PA, I can honestly say I never found that much at them. They were not that good of spots.

Again, just because you have done it and no one pushed the issue doesn't mean that it isn't technically illegal. They likely realized that you were doing no real harm. These laws are able to be enforced at their discretion. I think that it is great that you are providing this perspective. It helps people making the decision to do this realize that there is more to it than the written law. But the fact remains, they can bust someone if they really want to. That is the important point that people need to understand.

We all have to decide what level of risk we are willing to live with. If someone understands the facts and choose to detect on these state lands then that is their decision. But at least they made the decision based on facts and not Tom's soap box arguments.

 

[DirtDodger]

I didnt know you were talking to Tom- SORRY

 

[TreasurePirate69]

I didnt know you were talking to Tom- SORRY

No problem. I haven't been kind to either you or Tom. I get emotional when this topic pops up. I apologize to you and Tom for being too harsh. Time to take a break for a while.

 

[DirtDodger]

Again, just because you have done it and no one pushed the issue doesn't mean that it isn't technically illegal. They likely realized that you were doing no real harm. These laws are able to be enforced at their discretion. I think that it is great that you are providing this perspective. It helps people making the decision to do this realize that there is more to it than the written law. But the fact remains, they can bust someone if they really want to. That is the important point that people need to understand.

We all have to decide what level of risk we are willing to live with. If someone understands the facts and choose to detect on these state lands then that is their decision. But at least they made the decision based on facts and not Tom's soap box arguments.

How can one be arrested or ticketed it the activty is not pohibited. As far as a backhoe, seriously... comparing detedting to a backhoe...
if you use one of them to detect you should be arrested. It would certainly cause major damage... cutting a plug and filling it back in is hardly the same...

 

[jeff of pa]

PA DCNR - Metal Detecting

 

[DirtDodger]

PA*DCNR*-*Metal Detecting

Thanks, great information.

Not sure how much weight it holds since it is not in the official regulations, it is however on the official PA DCNR web site.

It would be very wise to follow it. - It of course applies only to state Parks.

 

[elijahhenry10]

I can't detect in the Oval Office even though I pay taxes.

Speaking of the Oval Office, can you imagine how great it would be if you could detect the White House's front lawn? There has got to be some great coins under that perfect grass.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well dirt-dodger, with that link, you know know that there is a specific ALLOWANCE of metal detectors. Ie.: it wasn't simply "silent on the issue", with nothing said either way. Although I agree with you, there need NOT be a specific allowance of an activity. As long as something is not specifically prohibited, then ... presto, it's not specifically prohibited And I agree that no, no one's going to "get arrested" if there's not a specific prohibition. If someone came up and told him "you're harming earthworms or vegation and thus must stop" and he THEN continued detecting, well then sure, then he may face some legal action (for failing to heed a warning).

However, it says this in that allowance verbage:

"Individuals who want to use a metal detector in a state park must receive prior approval from the specific park manager on-site...."

So that leads me to ask you: In your 38 yrs. of never having had a problem, have you followed this rule, and "asked" at each park you came to? We have something like this in CA (according to the FMDAC's state-by-state rule-list). It too has something to the affect of "ask at each park you come to" type-of-thing. Yet oddly, you can detect state beaches here till you're blue in the face, and no one ever cares. And ... no ... no one inquires at each beach he comes to either. Detectors have always simply been a common site here, so it would seem odd for us to read such a thing now (like if an oldtimer were to stumble on to this state-by-state list), and think .... we need to start asking at each kiosk we come to.

Treasurepirate69, yes I get passionate about this subject too! Thank you for your perspective, and I do enjoy reading and accepting a challenge to my thought-process. Ever since the day, in the 1980s, that someone came into our club meeting telling the group that he'd gone to city hall and been told that detecting wasn't allowed in our parks, the subject has intrigued me. Because you see, it created a confusion amongst the 20 or so attendees: some thought "oh no, you can't detect in the parks anymore!", while others thought "Nonsence, you just got someone to morph something to apply to your 'pressing question', when in fact, no one had ever cared" (it had never been a problem). Yet on the other hand, how could you "argue with an edict/answer straight from city hall?" Doh! Does that now make everyone who continues to go "lawless"? Was that individual right to have asked? You can clearly see that sometimes the simple "asking" merely brings about a rule (or a policy in effect anyhow), where none previously existed before. THAT is what I'm afraid of.

Thus I would side with dirt-dodger that there DOES need to be a "specific" rule, and that ...... no .... we are under no obligation to go pre-empting the possibility that someone might come up and morph the alterations clauses, or cultural heritage clauses, or collecting/harvesting clauses, etc... to apply to our activity. Might it happen? SURE! Should we be "safe" then and go ask "can I?" ahead of time? Not in my opinion.

 

[DirtDodger]

Well dirt-dodger, with that link, you know know that there is a specific ALLOWANCE of metal detectors. Ie.: it wasn't simply "silent on the issue", with nothing said either way. Although I agree with you, there need NOT be a specific allowance of an activity. As long as something is not specifically prohibited, then ... presto, it's not specifically prohibited And I agree that no, no one's going to "get arrested" if there's not a specific prohibition. If someone came up and told him "you're harming earthworms or vegation and thus must stop" and he THEN continued detecting, well then sure, then he may face some legal action (for failing to heed a warning).

However, it says this in that allowance verbage:

"Individuals who want to use a metal detector in a state park must receive prior approval from the specific park manager on-site...."

So that leads me to ask you: In your 38 yrs. of never having had a problem, have you followed this rule, and "asked" at each park you came to?

No, I have not as I stated... but please hold on just one second...

First, this is not in the regulations, it is a web page on the DCNR site. I have no way of knowing how long that page was there. For sure prior to internet days it wasn't. It was not there when I checked sometime back. It was likely added within year or so. Having worked in government for many years, and as web administrator, a web page is not the same as a regulation. Many people have the authority to put up a page that doesn't mean it is enforceable code. A Justice of the Peace would be bound to go by the regulations, most likely. But besides that, PLEASE note, that all state parks have the regs posted. If this was not included then again it would be hard to enforce. Also, if I haven't seen it, I wonder if the rangers have. I would bet many have not. They would be given the badge and regs and sent forth, web pages come and go. the Official regs are always there. Still I dont see them issueing a sumons.. more likely they would inform you of the rule.
It maybe different in CA but in PA I have never run into it. Possibly also they had seen me and my father so many times that they know we are not causing any harm and we use good judgement as to when we do it.

 

[DirtDodger]

So that leads me to ask you: In your 38 yrs. of never having had a problem, have you followed this rule, and "asked" at each park you came to?

Also for those unfamiliar with PA state parks, not every park has a park office or officer on site. Many in my area are unmanned and some unless you know you cant tell them from the state forest lands that surround them. They are in very rural areas that may sometime see a wildlife officer pass by, but never see a park ranger. There is a huge diference between the two...

 

[wainzoid]

3 of our local state parks share the same ranger. I hope to get permission for all three at the same time. No hurry, our paths will cross someday and I'll ask.

Pa state game lands are purchased with hunting license monies and hunters have senority.

Our high school kids have done leaf collections since I can remember (60-70's). A friend of mine, his wife, and their 14 yr old daughter payed a fine for collecting leaves on gamelands. Believe it or not, the deputy that held them until the Wco arrived, is a teacher.