Mounds,,Morals, Ethics, etc.

[tncreeker]

So here is my question. There are a lot of mounds in this area. I would never dig or disturb in any way. They have been pilfered in the past, digging sewer lines, building roads etc. I have found surface finds in the vicinity of these mounds(or whats left of them). I`m sure they were dug up with the dirt and where dirt was not used to fill in holes,,well they have come to the surface. So am I wrong to pick them up and keep them? I cant re-bury them. So,,,,,,what are your thoughts?
Thank you
Lori

 

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[Get-the-point]

Well if you knew your country why did you say it is against the law to own native american artifacts? You need to get a clue and stop focusing on retaliation due to your inability to speak correctly and understand the laws correctly. As I SAID AND I WILL NOT REPEAT IT!!! YOU STATED TO THE POSTER IT WAS AGAINST THE LAW TO BASICALLY HAVE NATIVE AMERICAN ARTIFACTS. EVEN IF THEY FOUND THEM. YOUR WORDS NOT MINE CHAMP!! I CORRECTED YOU AND YOU FLEW OFF THE HANDLE DEFENDING YOUR STATEMENT AND STILL DO!! THAT IS THE PATHETIC FACT OF THIS WHOLE THING. DO NOT MISLEAD AND THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN!!! ORGANIZATIONS?? GET REAL MAN I CAN BARELY SUPPORT MYSELF LET ALONE SOME MALEVOLENT ORGANIZATION THAT YOU GUYS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT WATCH!!! WTF!!!!

 

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[Oddjob]

Sorry Oddjob. Trials for theft or sale of archaeological artifacts take place in the jurisdiction in which they occurred. Whatever court there is in the Netherlands has absolutely no jurisdiction over alleged offenses on US soil, and they probably wouldn't concern themselves with American arrowhead hunters anyway.

I agree I have never heard of anyone concerning them selves over some arrowheads.

However to the Netherlands; it is not about that countries jurisdiction as I have already stated. I have spoke of international law and provided the link requested.

No not everyone is out on trial where the crime takes place for this. Look at all the NATO troops that raid the Baghdad museum. They were not taken to trial in Iraq for smuggling back Sumerian artifacts. Neither did the french who raided the Egyptian museum this last time, or the two curators who assisted in the Kabul looting.

It has nothing to do with EU laws, it is about international law.

You guys do not need to take my word for it just look it up on the site provided.

 

[NC field hunter]

So here is my question. There are a lot of mounds in this area. I would never dig or disturb in any way. They have been pilfered in the past, digging sewer lines, building roads etc. I have found surface finds in the vicinity of these mounds(or whats left of them). I`m sure they were dug up with the dirt and where dirt was not used to fill in holes,,well they have come to the surface. So am I wrong to pick them up and keep them? I cant re-bury them. So,,,,,,what are your thoughts?
Thank you
Lori

I've been through the same situation. In SC. I ran across a mound that had been plowed for food plots to be planted on. The only nice pottery I've ever found came from there. The ground was littered with shards. By nature, I started filling my pockets. I bet I weighed 50lbs more coming out of that place than when I went in. I did not say a word about it until I got back to NC. I had mixed emotions about what I had done. On one hand I feel I preserved their heritage, on the other, I don't even know what tribe was there. Maybe I should have just let it settle back into the earth in which it's rightful owner lay. I don't know?

 

[Tnmountains]

For Americans

http://www.cr.nps.gov/local-law/fhpl_archrsrcsprot.pdf The laws of our nation

Please note these sections...

(g) Nothing in subsection (d) of this section shall be deemedapplicable to any person with respect to the removal ofarrowheads located on the surface of the ground.

 

[Tnmountains]

Yes anything found before 1979 is grandfathered in. It is all inclusive. There fore I could bring a plane load into your country legally. As far as Cultural it is a little different here as many of those ancient 10,000 year old culturals DO NOT exist today. We are talking STONE AGE here with no written history only examples in time. It would be like returning a stone tool to a cave man. Not going to happen.
Hope this answers your question.

 

[Oddjob]

Yes anything found before 1979 is grandfathered in. It is all inclusive. There fore I could bring a plane load into your country legally. As far as Cultural it is a little different here as many of those ancient 10,000 year old culturals DO NOT exist today. We are talking STONE AGE here with no written history only examples in time. It would be like returning a stone tool to a cave man. Not going to happen.
Hope this answers your question.

Into my country. You mean America as I am an American or do you mean where I reside?

If you mean where I reside currently, you really have no clue. US laws do not mean a thing in another country. This is why we have a 189 member state for International Law.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I have removed several replies here....... All members, there will be no flame wars, insulting or talking down to other members here............

Oddjob your new here, I suggest you read our rules..... I have gone over your replies here as well as in another thread you have replied in and it appears you may not have read our rules........
http://www.treasurenet.com/index.php?pageid=rules



Please keep it civil so a moderator does not have to step in and take action........

 

[tncreeker]

Man,,never thought this question would lead to this. Well I would like to thank Tnmountains, NC field hunter, G-T-P, for their replys. I just didnt want to do anything un ethical, or disrespectful to the people that had left these items behind for what ever reason. Thank you Treasure Hunter for stepping in. Oddjob,,,I am aware of the laws here for surface hunting arrowheads, stone lithics etc. This had nothing to do with smuggling, raiding, stealing, selling, etc. Perhaps you should have read my post twice before you replied. These are public lands that I walk my dog on. Dirt roads, river beaches etc. here in the USA. No reply needed,,,I dont need to be schooled in international antiquities laws.
Thank you
Lori

 

[GaRebel1861]

I have removed several replies here....... All members, there will be no flame wars, insulting or talking down to other members here............

Oddjob your new here, I suggest you read our rules..... I have gone over your replies here as well as in another thread you have replied in and it appears you may not have read our rules........
http://www.treasurenet.com/index.php?pageid=rules



Please keep it civil so a moderator does not have to step in and take action........

OK, I think I understand what you are saying but, does that mean that I can't call him an on this site after reading all this?

 

[theonlinefisherman]

I live in Saint Petersburg, Florida. There is a mound on private property eight blocks away. The owners said that when they sell the property I am free to scrape it for two weeks or three weeks or however long I have. There is a mound dead in the middle of the acre. All together there are 1,800 known sites within the county lines. I have found scrapers in the alley behind my house when gas guys cut lines. I have know of it for years. Nobody knows it is there. I will leave it until people who know no better get there with backhoes to dig a foundation for a very expensive house.

They used to mine the mounds here to build roads. Any and every construction site, and especially ones near any water - salt or fresh - can produce incredible things.

And then there are the Everglades. God knows what is there with the pythons and the gators. I have hunted five different spots there that friends told me about - one of which produced the only cache I ever found. Pure Paleo stuff. Definitely hunters, not farmers. Federal land, I have to assume, or leased or owned by sugar companies. I got out of the car, walked a half mile to the spot, and started finding stuff in a half hour. Less. It is all on my desk or in my cases.

The point is that those artifacts are never going to be as honored or as protected then if people like us get them. The cultures here had 150,000 people in two major groups (Weedon or safety harbor and calusa) when the spanish got here. They and their cultures were destroyed. They will remain buried forever without any man knowing anything ever happened here - and there is evidence of 20,000 years of human occupation.

Who is protecting who?? I surface hunt for the most part, although there are private properties we have access to (me and my two primary hunting friends) where we have dug and will still dig.

The federal government isn't protecting anything from anybody. I have seen the collections in the dark rooms at the universities. And I have seen them on the walls of my friends and my home. Where are they better off?my grandchildren will get them and by then they will be illegal and priceless.

We do not dig burials sites. The two local cultures had ritual burials. Even the oldest sites show specific mounds for the purpose of burying the dead. We did find twelve skeletons once. There were artifacts all over the place, but we did not touch anything. It had to be either a sacrifice or a fight. A bad one. And that site is still secret. The site is in a saint Petersburg neighborhood. There is an intact ritual mound behind a church in south saint Petersburg. And a dozen on grounds around a golf course that has never been developed. It is probably the least thirty acres on the peninnsula..

And we are not rural at all. Completely covered with concrete. But where it has not been paved, there are artifacts. And I hate to see them covered in asphalt.

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[Age_old]

I live in Saint Petersburg, Florida. There is a mound on private property eight blocks away. The owners said that when they sell the property I am free to scrape it for two weeks or three weeks or however long I have. There is a mound dead in the middle of the acre. All together there are 1,800 known sites within the county lines. I have found scrapers in the alley behind my house when gas guys cut lines. I have know of it for years. Nobody knows it is there. I will leave it until people who know no better get there with backhoes to dig a foundation for a very expensive house.

They used to mine the mounds here to build roads. Any and every construction site, and especially ones near any water - salt or fresh - can produce incredible things.

And then there are the Everglades. God knows what is there with the pythons and the gators. I have hunted five different spots there that friends told me about - one of which produced the only cache I ever found. Pure Paleo stuff. Definitely hunters, not farmers. Federal land, I have to assume, or leased or owned by sugar companies. I got out of the car, walked a half mile to the spot, and started finding stuff in a half hour. Less. It is all on my desk or in my cases.

The point is that those artifacts are never going to be as honored or as protected then if people like us get them. The cultures here had 150,000 people in two major groups (Weedon or safety harbor and calusa) when the spanish got here. They and their cultures were destroyed. They will remain buried forever without any man knowing anything ever happened here - and there is evidence of 20,000 years of human occupation.

Who is protecting who?? I surface hunt for the most part, although there are private properties we have access to (me and my two primary hunting friends) where we have dug and will still dig.

The federal government isn't protecting anything from anybody. I have seen the collections in the dark rooms at the universities. And I have seen them on the walls of my friends and my home. Where are they better off?my grandchildren will get them and by then they will be illegal and priceless.

We do not dig burials sites. The two local cultures had ritual burials. Even the oldest sites show specific mounds for the purpose of burying the dead. We did find twelve skeletons once. There were artifacts all over the place, but we did not touch anything. It had to be either a sacrifice or a fight. A bad one. And that site is still secret. The site is in a saint Petersburg neighborhood. There is an intact ritual mound behind a church in south saint Petersburg. And a dozen on grounds around a golf course that has never been developed. It is probably the least thirty acres on the peninnsula..

And we are not rural at all. Completely covered with concrete. But where it has not been paved, there are artifacts. And I hate to see them covered in asphalt.

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I live in Clearwater, I knew there were Indian mounds in St. Pete but I had no idea there were that many. I figured they were all protected. I live on Allen's creek and I found a scraper in my back yard; A tribe called the tocobaga Indians lived here, on my property. I love Indian artifacts, but I thought they were hard to find in pinellas county....

 

[Get-the-point]

I live in Clearwater, I knew there were Indian mounds in St. Pete but I had no idea there were that many. I figured they were all protected. I live on Allen's creek and I found a scraper in my back yard; A tribe called the tocobaga Indians lived here, on my property. I love Indian artifacts, but I thought they were hard to find in pinellas county....

A scraper is a tool and would indicate a site. You are closer then you think to the artifacts. I bet if you did a couple of test digs in your own yard you might come up with a arrowhead or two or three!!!.............................GTP(Chris)

 

[Age_old]

A scraper is a tool and would indicate a site. You are closer then you think to the artifacts. I bet if you did a couple of test digs in your own yard you might come up with a arrowhead or two or three!!!.............................GTP(Chris)

How do you think I should go about doing that? I have about 2 acres; how should I dig? You guys seem really knowledgeable about the area; I would really appreciate some tips. I do all my artifact hunting up in north Florida in pastures, fields, and rivers. Down here I have no idea

 

[Age_old]

Here is that scraper I found. It's very thin and sharp, and it has a nice little 'window'. We were digging for a new concrete foundation for an old outdoor grilling area when I first moved in, and this guy was about three feet down.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

OK, I think I understand what you are saying but, does that mean that I can't call him an on this site after reading all this?

The answer to your question would depend on if you wanted a vacation from TN or not..........

FYI substituting **** or &%@# for letters does not change the curse or attack and it is STILL a violation of TN rules and the consequences are the same....It is best to not do it....

 

[GatorBoy]

...

 

[Silverfinder99]

This quote right here was stated by you!!! Now you want to go and tell me that you did not say it was against the law to surface hunt. I responded to that and agreed on certain parts of that. Now you want to go against what you said and now state a different position. Proof is in your words sir!! You stated all Native American artifacts were off limits. That misled the poster. I corrected it and you tell me i'm breaking the law!! Now you say it is ok to surface hunt. Really what is your position on this, is it all Native American artifacts or just the protected one? Your first reply covers all, your last reply only covers certain. So it is you who is misinterpreting the law and defending your stance and now that you fully understand what I have said after you insult my intelligence you flip your stance and go with, I never said it was against the law to surface hunt. After you adamantly defended it was against the law. You are not as smart as you think. Especially when you are up against a lot of collectors who have been down this road before with people like yourself with your own agenda's. You should have admitted you were wrong in your first reply instead of attacking me and saying i'm breaking the law because i surface hunt!! Now you just change your stance without acknowledging that fact. Are you sure you are not flip Mitt!!!

Hey, I'm on your side all the way up to your last question. Let's leave America's next president out of this shall we

 

[TENNESSEEGAL]

Hey, I'm on your side all the way up to your last question. Let's leave America's next president out of this shall we

LOL!

 

[centfladigger]

I live in Saint Petersburg, Florida. There is a mound on private property eight blocks away. The owners said that when they sell the property I am free to scrape it for two weeks or three weeks or however long I have. There is a mound dead in the middle of the acre. All together there are 1,800 known sites within the county lines. I have found scrapers in the alley behind my house when gas guys cut lines. I have know of it for years. Nobody knows it is there. I will leave it until people who know no better get there with backhoes to dig a foundation for a very expensive house.

They used to mine the mounds here to build roads. Any and every construction site, and especially ones near any water - salt or fresh - can produce incredible things.

And then there are the Everglades. God knows what is there with the pythons and the gators. I have hunted five different spots there that friends told me about - one of which produced the only cache I ever found. Pure Paleo stuff. Definitely hunters, not farmers. Federal land, I have to assume, or leased or owned by sugar companies. I got out of the car, walked a half mile to the spot, and started finding stuff in a half hour. Less. It is all on my desk or in my cases.

The point is that those artifacts are never going to be as honored or as protected then if people like us get them. The cultures here had 150,000 people in two major groups (Weedon or safety harbor and calusa) when the spanish got here. They and their cultures were destroyed. They will remain buried forever without any man knowing anything ever happened here - and there is evidence of 20,000 years of human occupation.

Who is protecting who?? I surface hunt for the most part, although there are private properties we have access to (me and my two primary hunting friends) where we have dug and will still dig.

The federal government isn't protecting anything from anybody. I have seen the collections in the dark rooms at the universities. And I have seen them on the walls of my friends and my home. Where are they better off?my grandchildren will get them and by then they will be illegal and priceless.

We do not dig burials sites. The two local cultures had ritual burials. Even the oldest sites show specific mounds for the purpose of burying the dead. We did find twelve skeletons once. There were artifacts all over the place, but we did not touch anything. It had to be either a sacrifice or a fight. A bad one. And that site is still secret. The site is in a saint Petersburg neighborhood. There is an intact ritual mound behind a church in south saint Petersburg. And a dozen on grounds around a golf course that has never been developed. It is probably the least thirty acres on the peninnsula..

And we are not rural at all. Completely covered with concrete. But where it has not been paved, there are artifacts. And I hate to see them covered in asphalt.

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I know of alot of mounds inthe southern st pete area, mounds in residential neighbohoods, the pink streets....a do gooder even wrote a book about mounds with maps to these mounds, we werent too happy when it came out,lol Most of these were just plain trash middens, the larger temple mounds were destroyed around the turn of the century for raod fill, even the University of Tampais built on he truck loads of coastal mounds. we preserve what we can when we can. We have sites we go to where we find artifacts on the public beach certaqin beaches here are man made and sand dredged from the bay is used and thats where the sites were 10,000 years ago. The state would call us looters because we arent papered. Plenty of people have dug mounds on private property, why is it different from what Archaeologist did 100 years ago? This state was wide open for these guys from other states and institutes to come herew and dig all these huge mounds and take the find to their home states or countries.
There are more Florida artifacts in other museums and countries than what is shown here in our state. That is sad right there. The phosphate mines here have destroyed some of the biggest mounds and sites around. All in the name of progress, but we are looters who dont have the required education to dig a site we find. I have found at least 6 mounds that were never documented before, and I did take my 1 "digger friendly" arch friend to these area for him to record. A small museum in Manatee county was trying to sell a 2 acre tract of land with a HUGE burial mound on it that was DONATED to the museum, they needed the money to stay open. It is crap like that that fuels me to do my own thing, whatever that thing mat be, I never kiss and tell in public.
If you found a mound on private property keep it to yourself, if you did explore, keep it to yourself. everyone has their own opinion on all matters and who cares what others think, as long as you are within your legal rights and can sleep peacefully at night

 

[theonlinefisherman]

That is now I feel. Florida was raped by the universities.

Cool to meet go pinellas person I live near 22nd in crescent heights.

You wanna dig that mound WITH Me??

And gator. Gator has to come with us too. And gator lives in Florida too, on the east coast. I have a guess house he can stay in lol but he cannot be scratching around without you and me there with screening lol

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