My beliefs on dowsing

[ClonedSIM]

Okay, smarty. So tell me, if it's so simple......what's millimeter electronic wave band?

Don't say, "gee af, why don't you look it up?"
or
"gee, why should I do the work for you?"

You use the device and claim it does these amazing things, you should understand what it does. In fact, you should be able to rattle a definition right off the top of your head.

Aft,your childish demands are ridiculous. Not even entertaining. Dell

I'm sorry you aren't entertained by this discussion, Dell. Perhaps we could go back and look at some of your previous posts that try to explain dowsing for good laugh....

 

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[aarthrj3811]

Hey af …Now do you know the technology that Dr Dobler discovered?

 

[ClonedSIM]

Hey af …Now do you know the technology that Dr Dobler discovered?

I'm sorry, Art. Was this:

********* The X Band****************
Dr. Paul E. Dobler of Heilbronn, Germany discovered that turbulent water
emits powerful bursts of energy in the millimeter electronic wave band.
Turbulent motion of water generates millions of vortexes which act as
energy transmitters.
This energy waveband was once called the X-band by physicists as it
included the range from the infrared light band to the edge of the
microwave radio band. It was called the X-band because no one could
differentiate specific frequencies in this band. These energies have
very interesting properties.
Dr. Dobler discovered that energies in this waveband could cause certain
metallic crystals to emit photons of light which will expose certain
tpes of chromatic film.
Dr. Dobler made interferometers, resonators, and other devices that
could accurately measure the wavelengths emitted by water.
He was also able to measure millimeter wavelengths that are emitted by
crystals and magnets.
The exact techniques used by Dobler are described in his two books:
Biophysikalische Untersuchungen uber Stralung der Materie, Wunchelrute,
Elecktrische Wellen (Biophysical Experiments on the Radiation of matter,
Divining Rods, Electric Waves, 1939) and Physickalischer und
Photographischer machweis de Erdstrahlen Losung des Problems der
Wunschelrute (Physical and Photographic Proof of Radiation from the
Earth, 1934).
Unfortunately this great scientist's work was lost for many years due to
the destruction of scientific libraries in Germany during WWII.
Consequently the techniques used for their generation and detection rely
on a mixture of optical and radio wave techniques. Such systems might
use aerials,optical lenses,metal lenses, mirrors and circuits. Because
of this the technology is often referred to as 'quasi optics'.
At 0.1 THz (just above 10=B9=B2 Hz) the waves can be detected using a
radio which operates in much the same way as a car radio. The only
difference is that the aerial or antenna is only a millimetre long. The
whole radio can fit into an area of only 2 mm2.
This image (not shown) shows an artists impression of a simple terahertz
radio receiver. The pyramidal horn is made from stacked layers of etched
silicon. This focuses the terahertz waves onto the T shaped aerial at
the bottom which carries the signal to the detector Because of this the
technology relies on extremely precise components which until recently
have been incredibly expensive (it is not unusual for a single terahertz
component to cost more than 75,000 Euros).
Due to the expense, terahertz systems have only really been used in
areas of technology where cost is not an issue such as Space Science and
Astronomy.
Recently, however, the cost of manufacture has been dramatically reduced
such that newer everyday uses may be envisioned..
This has been possible by borrowing some of the technologies that have
been developed by the silicon chip industry. By using printing or
lithography, terahertz circuits and aerials can be manufactured cheaply
on silicon wafers. This means that it now may be possible, for the first
time, to build an array of terahertz detectors or pixels in much the
same way as a CCD camera. This technology has succeeded in takeing a
color terahertz photograph of a human hand.

terahertz waves 'quasi optics' http://youtube.com/watch?v=b_0A25efycw

supposed to be an aswer to this:

Okay, smarty. So tell me, if it's so simple......what's millimeter electronic wave band?

?

 

[ClonedSIM]

A quote below from Dell Winders? I never said that. Aft,you are thouroughly confused

Quote from: Dell Winders on Today at 11:15:19 AM
Quote
Okay, smarty. So tell me, if it's so simple......what's millimeter electronic wave band?

Don't say, "gee af, why don't you look it up?"
or
"gee, why should I do the work for you?"

You use the device and claim it does these amazing things, you should understand what it does. In fact, you should be able to rattle a definition right off the top of your head.

The cut/paste/misquote skills you display defy explanation, Dell. You and Art should get together and rewrite a few novels.....

Oh, no. Wait, I understand.

When you run out of quack science to explain your "skills" you resort to this behavior.

Make yourself look ignorant, Dell. We're all very used to it.

 

[aarthrj3811]

When you run out of quack science to explain your "skills" you resort to this behavior.

That statement needs no answer…..Art

"The door to knowledge & understanding is always open, I can’t make you come in and want to learn”…

 

[ClonedSIM]

When you run out of quack science to explain your "skills" you resort to this behavior.

That statement needs no answer…..Art

"The door to knowledge & understanding is always open, I can’t make you come in and want to learn”…

Apparently Dell disagrees with you....

 

[ClonedSIM]

Aft, you seem to be in denial

In denial of what, Dell?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI AF: You said ----->

" but the problem is that we have no clue what the original intent of the machine was"
~~~~~~~~~~

To measure unseen and normally undetectable forces no? so make one and experiment, then post your results here.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HII TOM mi buddy: You said--->

"Real de Tayopa, you say: "controlled with the mind only" That sounds more like supernaturally based, eh? "
~~~~~~~~


No, the military now have guidance techniques that use eye movements and certain areas of the Brain to control and direct missiles. Next step is an operational helmet like thingie that will respond to the brain more directly.

It is not supernatural, just merely a harnessing our presently inaccessible functions of our brain.

As for the apparatus in Czeh., they are supposedly charged or moved by looking at them in a certain pattern then concentrating on moving them.. Data to date suggests that the eyes act as a sort of microwave focused transmitter. With certain colors, or Quartz glass, nothing takes place ---- hint in frequencies.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[ClonedSIM]

HI AF: You said ----->

" but the problem is that we have no clue what the original intent of the machine was"
~~~~~~~~~~

To measure unseen and normally undetectable forces no? so make one and experiment, then post your results here.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Fair enough.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Don Jose, you say: "No, the military now have guidance techniques that use eye movements and certain areas of the Brain to control and direct missiles. Next step is an operational helmet like thingie that will respond to the brain more directly.

It is not supernatural, just merely a harnessing our presently inaccessible functions of our brain.

As for the apparatus in Czeh., they are supposedly charged or moved by looking at them in a certain pattern then concentrating on moving them.. Data to date suggests that the eyes act as a sort of microwave focused transmitter. With certain colors, or Quartz glass, nothing takes place ---- hint in frequencies."

For starters, it appears that in one thread, you say "no one knows how dowsing works", but then you, on another thread, you explain how it works. Oh well.

This is all very interesting, if only it went beyond theory to actually prooving and measuring of these things. I'm sort of skeptical of the things Russians (& Czech's) study as "science" anyhow: I watched a TV show, showing the explosion of mystical, occult, religion, paranormal interest, cults, etc... behind the former iron curtain, since communism fell in the late 1980s.

Apparently, there was, and still is, a great hunger for spiritual things over there (since they were so quelled under communism, at least as far as religion went). The show showed "scientists" studying the phenomenom of psychics, who could supposedly look at a picture of a person, and just from that picture, tell you all about that person (by pressing it to their forehead, squinting real hard, etc...). Yeah! that type of stuff is taken totally serious over there!! That's just one example. Sure, I know I may be "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" as if that somehow made all Russian research is therefore "suspect", but .... it's just food for thought.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI TOM: Coffee?? You said-->

"For starters, it appears that in one thread, you say "no one knows how dowsing works", but then you, on another thread, you explain how it works. Oh well"
~~~~~~~~~~~

I am curious,where did I say "how dowsing works" ? Yes, I do have my theories backed up by some research, and it is much more simplified than suspected, but I haven't posted them??
=================================================================

Apparently, there was, and still is, a great hunger for spiritual things over there
~~~~~~~~~~

Not just there but here also. Spiritual, in regards to the supernatural .Something to show us we are somehow different from pure animals. that there IS a herafter. This can get very involved.
=================================================================

Unfortunately once something interesting or unusual pops up, there are a milion people that want to use it to their advantage. This at times can demonize or simply discredit it and so set it back for years or even generations.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey Tom...Here is some more interesting reading...I like the experiment with the knife...

Divining rods and all common dowsing devices, are the simplest forms of electroscopes. The bent rod for example is just a variation of Gilbert's straw needle electroscope.
The divining rods are charged with static electricity from the dowser's own body. This static electricity can be seen quite adequately with a simple millivolt meter. This voltage is measured between the hands of the dowser, to measure this voltage accurately a diff amp should be used at the input to the voltmeter, "this eliminates stray signals which are common to both hands". The amount of voltage will vary depending on the person. A good dowser will have a high reading, "above 100 mv" while a poor dowser may read as low as,"0 mv.". For males the right hand is usually a negative polarity, and the left hand is positive in polarity. These polarities are usually reversed in females.
The divining rod charged positively will rotate in the dowsers hand to line up parallel to a negatively charged object being dowsed. A divining rod charged negatively will remain perpendicular to a negatively charged object being dowsed. This is because like charges repel, while unlike charges attract. Thus both bent divining rods are not required for dowsing. When two divining rods are used, and they are seen to cross, one of the rods is being moved to line up parallel with the charged object being dowsed. The other rod is moving to line up parallel to the first rod. A second reason for the two rods crossing is that of dowsing over an alternating current source, such as a pipeline or buried cable. these are usually buried shallow and are conducting ground currents as the path of least resistance.
The above statements can easily be proven by, dowsing over negatively and positively charged objects. The devices used in my experiments were, a rubber rod rubbed with cat fur to produce the positive charged object, while a glass rod rubbed with silk was used to produce the negatively charged object.
The reason conventional devices cannot detect these positive and negative charges, is probably because of the array in which the charged object gives off it's lines of force in all directions. Most instruments being omnidirectional devices would not pick up the small incremental changes in voltage along the earth’s surface. But the bent divining rods being unidirectional devices, can only turn to line up parallel to the charged object, when they are directly above the charged object.
The willow crotch is another type of dowsing device, this divining rod begins to pick up an attraction to the charged object prior to reaching the object, having it’s greatest amount of pull directly over the object. After dowsing with the willow crotch , the crotch itself can laid down and dowsed with the bent rods, which will indicate a charge left on each arm of the crotch, one positive and one negative.
A metallic pendulum attached by a wire will take on the charge of the hand it is being held by. A pendulum held by a nonconductive string will take on the charge of the last hand which held the pendulum. The pendulum when rotating above an object of a similar charge will continue to rotate and eventually swing back and forth perpendicular to the object. This pendulum when rotating above an object of the opposite charge will start to swing back and forth parallel to the object being dowsed. Caution here when dowsing an object you have touched the object will usually take on the charge of the last hand that touched it. This can be demonstrated by dowsing over an object such as a table knife depending on which hand touched the knife last an opposite reaction of the dowsing device will be seen.
Another interesting phenomenon
To discover the depth of a water stream underground some dowsers use a long rod, made of either iron or a fresh cut poplar pole. This pole is held by one end near the located underground stream, the other end of the rod is allowed to oscillate up and down directly over the stream. The number of oscillations are counted and this is the approximate number of feet below the earth where the water will be found.
This action can also be demonstrated, by realizing that the rod is just a pendulum working in a vertical plane rather than a horizontal one. To duplicate this action a charged object can be placed on a table, by having a pendulum swing back and forth, a few feet away, and in the same horizontal plane the number of oscillations can be counted. By moving the pendulum closer or farther from the object the number of oscillations will decrease or increase. When this is graphed, number of oscillations vs. distance, a straight line graph will be observed. By varying the length of the wire on the pendulum, the slope of the line will vary. My theory here is that a static electric wave or pulse is being sent to the object being dowsed, this charge is being reflected back from the object being dowsed, when it reaches the pendulum again as the same charge it stops the oscillations, since like charges repel.
Giel Dutoit of South Africa sent me info on a discovery he had made. If you place a 250k ohm potentiometer between the dowsers hands as he is dowsing. You will see a decrease in his dowsing ability as this resistance is decreased to a zero ohms. In testing this I have also found it to be valid. Giel can be contacted at gieldutoit@hotmail.com
The significance of these finding are overwhelming . The applications in which dowsing has been used is HUGE. When all of these applications have been explored scientifically Mankind will take another leap forward.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Don Jose: "where did I say "how dowsing works" ?" I scrolled back over multiple threads, going back to way before I ever posted here, to cull some quotes where you gave suggestions on how dowsing works. What I found is, that for the most part, you do say most of the time "no one knows" and in other quotes, come right out and say that it is paranormal, supernatural, etc.....

But you do on other occasions, make stabs to explain it in natural or scientific terms. Here are some quotes:

Don, when you put out theories about how it works (even if only snippets and suggestions of theories), I take that as you, a dowser, explaining how it works.

Here are some examples of quotes from you:

"No, the military now have guidance techniques that use eye movements and certain areas of the Brain to control and direct missiles. Next step is an operational helmet like thingie that will respond to the brain more directly. It is not supernatural, just merely a harnessing our presently inaccessible functions of our brain."



"Try a version of psychotronics as developed in Czechoslakia.. The gentleman in question developed a series of aluminum objects that were moved , charged , and / or controlled with the mind only"


"a simple analogy is "why can I pick up an extremely weak radio wave from the other side of the world and separate it's modulator into something intelligible while I, and the apparatus are in the field of a local radio station which is so powerful that it can light up a neon tube with no physical connections?"


"I might add, the competent dowser can tune to a specific thing, since each and everything has a slightly different frequency.. No two gold nuggets, or even refined bars, have the same inherent frequency. This is why some dowsers can find nonmetallic or even living things. "


"there is also a thing called resistance, plus harmonic, and subharmonic frequencies in certain situations.."


"the body can handle an infinite no. of signals and select just the one that is pertinent.."


"A tremendous work was done by Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose on using Plants as bio instruments to measure subtle energies. He also won the Nobel peace prize on his work in Electronics and physics, in fact he is credited in being the first to send intelligible data via micro waves in th 1800's."

"I believe that they are now actively using bio-instruments to investigate telepathy, A fascinating allied Field field if one wishes to research it."

These would all seem to be quotes to explain it outside the realms of the unknown, and instead connect it to known research, science, or natural (as in, a keen sense of smell, etc...) things. But yes, in the majority of your posts, you are in agreement with me that, in fact, it is in the camp with paranormal, or, as yet, of unknown causes.


Dell, you say: "You don't seem to be aware of the american TV Show "Phenomen" ?" No, I am not familiar with that show. Do they address dowsing? And if they do, do they have anything that ties it to known science (as in, measureable, testable, etc...)? Got any links to their shows, as it pertains to the subject of dowsing? I'm game!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Art, very interesting. Thanx. I wonder what af's and Jerry's response is to that? I suspect it will be a lot of truths in there (static electricity and the like), but question how those truths lead to the leap that, therefore, we can hold on to a rod and find coins or treasures in distant fields.

Kind of like 1) "Mrs. Jones sings well" (a truth), + 2) Birds sing well (a truth), therefore 3) Mrs. Jones is a bird! You see how a string of truths, may not always equal the conclusion. But without ample knowledge to see if this is one such scenario, I'll defer opinion for the moment...........

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening TOM: You quoted --->

"But yes, in the majority of your posts, you are in agreement with me that, in fact, it is in the camp with paranormal, or, as yet, of unknown causes."
~~~~~~~~

Surprised? heheheh and yes I agree, the paranormal, not supernatural.. To me supernatural is something beyond normal man's ability, while the para-normal is just something still undeveloped or recognized as yet, but capable of being utilized with training..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Don Jose,

Ok, I guess we're getting our terms a little crossed up. If you meant "paranormal" as: things that are completely natural and physical, yet not understood at this present time, then we are using the word in different ways. Yes, your definition fits the exact dictionary description. My bad This basically goes back to the "un-discovered science" defence.

As I read back over some of your posts from earlier in the year, you equate dowsing with various other spooky occurances you've seen/done. Check out your thread titled: "dowsing / paranormal experiences, post stories" Remember that thread of yours? Seems that all through that, you did indeed connect dowsing to spiritual/supernatural phenomenom. Heck, even Dell took exception to your stance (check out his initial replies), because he too saw the obvious direction your thread was steering to, and of course wants to distance himself from anything mystical, occult, etc...

Jerry, you are doing a dis-service to your own beliefs. Seems like you just prooved the lines exist. Now how are you going to go disproove an actual photo, that PROOVES dowsing? I guess you finally got won over So long old friend

 

[aarthrj3811]

Terahertz waves are electromagnetic waves that have a frequency of between 100 GHz and 30 THz and lie between the infrared and microwave parts of the spectrum. What makes these waves so fascinating to scientists is their ability to penetrate materials that are usually opaque to both visible and infrared radiation.
For example, terahertz waves can pass through fog, fabrics, plastic, wood, ceramics and even a few centimetres of brick - although they can be blocked by a metal object or a thin layer of water. The way in which terahertz waves interact with living matter has potential for highlighting the early signs of tooth decay and skin or breast cancer, or understanding cell dynamics.
Growing demand The list of potential customers for terahertz wave technology is growing all the time. The military wants high terahertz and millimetre-wave imagers that are able to "see through" bad weather; chemists want spectroscopy equipment for analysing the structure of new drugs; and airports arguably need better security-screening equipment.
As a result, research on terahertz waves is fast evolving beyond being a mere scientific curiosity. There is now a buzz of activity as researchers around the world race to build the first practical terahertz imaging and spectroscopy equipment.

 

[aarthrj3811]

These waves were also photographed in 1898 by Dr Gustav LeBon in France. His experiments are described in his masterpiece, The Evolution of Matter (1909). Dr. LeBon used energized zinc sulfide plates to make these photographs. When zinc sulfide is exposed to bright light it glows in the dark. When it is exposed to infrared and millimeter waves, these waves extinguish the photon emission of the zinc plate. By focusing these waves by means of special devices, photographs can be taken through walls. Both LeBon and Dobler were able to demonstrate the power of these waves to penetrate all physical matter such as wood, earth and stones.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

aarthrj3811, interesting info. thanx for posting it. Curious: If you went to the very scientists who document these things, both from initial times 1898, 1909, etc... to the present, and were to ask these scientists "can these known waves allow a man with a brass rod dowse a coin or treasure in a field?" What would those scientists say to that? I just fear that this may be a case of several truths, that do not lend themselves to a conclusion. Like "Mrs. Smith sings good" + "birds sing good", = "therefore Mrs. Smith is a bird"

Jerry, you say: "So long? ? ? Are you going somewhere? I'm not." Well gee, I thought since you had a proof-positive photo, that you'd jumped ship and were now convinced of the scientific basis of dowsing. You mean to tell me you DOCTORED a photo? Uh oh, I wonder what that was meant to illistrate?