new show on the dutchman

[Hal Croves]

From another thread:

"It seems there are also a limited number of reasons such tales are created and believed to begin with 1) People without hope of wealth cling to the idea of becoming wealthy 2) tales are spread to draw people to an area for economic reasons (to draw in tourists) 3) People desire to elevate their status by claiming to know things that are not known by others 4) People make money from selling stories to media or the sale of maps 5) Delusions brought on by environmental factors or mental illness."

From an earlier post here:

"If a actor draws the intended response from the audience he played his part well. It's a TV show. Business is booming in AJ and the legend lives on. "

Case rested.

I'll take a number five to go. Please.

 

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[wrmickel1]

Once again Half, Reduced, That's what spell check turned Hal and Deducer into to so I'm gonna go with it. But anyway for two great minds as you two claim to have you's seem to be a little challenged
The Legends of The Superstitions,

The Show is not facts its based on Legends

So Half Reduced, explained real slow for ya.

Wrmickel1

 

[Hal Croves]

Once again Half, Reduced, That's what spell check turned Hal and Deducer into to so I'm gonna go with it. But anyway for two great minds as you two claim to have you's seem to be a little challenged
The Legends of The Superstitions,

The Show is not facts its based on Legends

So Half Reduced, explained real slow for ya.

Wrmickel1

Reducer, do you have a great mind? I don't ever remember making that claim about myself. What I do remember was sarge telling us that it was more than just legends. That's my problem. I was schooled to take a man for his word. I guess those days are a thing of the past. Me tink me understood its now.

Sincerely,
Half Wit

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

What about your fans? They seem to want to know also? Don't they deserve your honesty?
Ok, pretty please?

Hey Hal, I am not a fan per say, and after only watching 2 episodes and reading the comments here I believe I might be able to answer that............Pure BS and 95% was planted!

 

[Hal Croves]

Hey Hal, I am not a fan per say, and after only watching 2 episodes and reading the comments here I believe I might be able to answer that............Pure BS and 95% was planted!

Let me ask you this. Had I created something like EL GATO in the Tortilla Flat area and photographed it and presented it here as proof that there actually was an EL GATO in the Sups, and you found out that I had made it, what would you think of me? What if I said it was to renew interest in the legend, because I wanted to bring people to Tortilla Flat for the chile? Now that's a good cause but not a very moral approach. And that's the point.

Hopefully the the show has a disclaimer at the beginning and end about recreating things.

More interesting is the commercial filming permit. If they obtained one, they are due some credit.

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

Let me ask you this. Had I created something like EL GATO in the Tortilla Flat area and photographed it and presented it here as proof that there actually was an EL GATO in the Sups, and you found out that I had made it, what would you think of me? What if I said it was to renew interest in the legend, because I wanted to bring people to Tortilla Flat for the chile? Now that's a good cause but not a very moral approach. And that's the point.

Hopefully the the show has a disclaimer at the beginning and end about recreating things.

More interesting is the commercial filming permit. If they obtained one, they are due some credit.

I wouldn't think badly of you if I found out you created El Gato and said you found new evidence for treasure. In fact there are plenty of El Gato's out there in the wilderness! You just have to not be dinner plans for them!

In ALL HONESTY, I love treasure hunting stories and legends and I have no beefs or issues with the characters. Many here has studied treasure legends and been boots on the ground more than I will ever be! If I lived in an area like that where there is that kind of history, I would be spending weeks and weekends out there every chance I could get.

So with that said, I understand reality TV and the producers claim entertainment, etc. But what got me on the discussed of the show was showing BS newly planted "black hand" prints, the story of "Black Legion" that DOES NOT exist, the bogus medicine wheel, and whatever else was showed after the 2nd episode that I didn't watch. I understand on trying to pull BS over people who have not heard of the treasure/legend, or doesn't know any better, but when you got people that has some sort of sense to know what is and what isn't, that makes it a whole new ball game.

If I was in any of the characters places, I would have told the producers, we can discuss things on the legends and tell what the old stories were and follow along the treasure trails figuring out where the mines were. But planting BS things down to "misrepresent" what actually is doesn't make for good ratings. People are tired of watching BS stuff on TV and want to see something factual and real!

So when you want to go on the search for El Gato?

 

[Azquester]

I wouldn't think badly of you if I found out you created El Gato and said you found new evidence for treasure. In fact there are plenty of El Gato's out there in the wilderness! You just have to not be dinner plans for them!

In ALL HONESTY, I love treasure hunting stories and legends and I have no beefs or issues with the characters. Many here has studied treasure legends and been boots on the ground more than I will ever be! If I lived in an area like that where there is that kind of history, I would be spending weeks and weekends out there every chance I could get.

So with that said, I understand reality TV and the producers claim entertainment, etc. But what got me on the discussed of the show was showing BS newly planted "black hand" prints, the story of "Black Legion" that DOES NOT exist, the bogus medicine wheel, and whatever else was showed after the 2nd episode that I didn't watch. I understand on trying to pull BS over people who have not heard of the treasure/legend, or doesn't know any better, but when you got people that has some sort of sense to know what is and what isn't, that makes it a whole new ball game.

If I was in any of the characters places, I would have told the producers, we can discuss things on the legends and tell what the old stories were and follow along the treasure trails figuring out where the mines were. But planting BS things down to "misrepresent" what actually is doesn't make for good ratings. People are tired of watching BS stuff on TV and want to see something factual and real!

So when you want to go on the search for El Gato?

Hal here's some real stuff to fill that hole all you guys are missing pieces of.

I'm filming a project soon the actual removal or displacement of an Omega stone at a Treasure site. I'm just using my S5 Galaxy phone and Nikon camera but you won't see that episode on prime time.

So I hear that last nights show was a farce? I guess it turned out it's not about a real Treasure Hunt?

If that's the case I can just play with my Indiana Jones doll and make my own wittle twesure hunt!

















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[somehiker]

Just finished watching Ep 6. and did enjoy the show. A few memories rebooted.

Mike will recognize the cross as patterned after one shown on his website.....the "Altar Bar".....which he can post a photo of if he so wishes.

Aw...WTH, he probably won't mind me doing so.....



The "S" and the "F" are hugely important in all of this......"Santa Fe".....as in "Holy Faith", not SantaFe, NM.
Although the bar in the photo may be a "fake" as some believe, the symbolism of the lower half is not.

Got buzzed by some Apache Thunder as well, when I was out there with TP..... circled round, dropped down low and made a couple of passes over us.
Nothing hangin from the pods though....so all good.
I recon they practice on innocent hikers, spotting us out there and lining up for the kill......so to speak.



And one of the lower steel ladder section.

 

[gollum]

WHY DID YOU STEAL MY STUFF TO POST HERE?!?!?!?!

Just joking. No, I don't mind. The pic is actually the Intellectual Property of a nice gentleman in Arizona that owns the two bars.

How fitting is the helo? HAHAHA An Apache Gunship! I wonder if its a San Carlos or White Mountain Apache Gunship?

Mike

 

[somehiker]

WHY DID YOU STEAL MY STUFF TO POST HERE?!?!?!?!

Just joking. No, I don't mind. The pic is actually the Intellectual Property of a nice gentleman in Arizona that owns the two bars.

How fitting is the helo? HAHAHA An Apache Gunship! I wonder if its a San Carlos or White Mountain Apache Gunship?

Mike

Couldn't tell which tribe....they didn't shoot no arrows at us that I could look at close.

But here's one we found, that might have looked good in the show.
But Woody woulda been a gonner.....

 

[gollum]

See, at first, I thought the show would wind up at The Pit Mine saying that it was the LDM. Jack San Felice says it, and I know that (at least) Frank believes it.

Then I realized, the moment they find (or say they found) the LDM, then the show is over. So, like FInding Bigfoot, they will probably keep finding enough stuff to keep people interested, but never the big tamale!

MIke

 

[johnmark29020]

I must admit that I was hoping to hear more details about the legend,but you guys need to remember the history channel had everyone under contract,and it was the history channel who planted props,and edited the film.
Frank and gang cant win on this site.
If they post pics of gold bars they located,and tell the area. Everyone here will raise hell about then thousands of people out there hoping for the same luck.

If they say I was acting on a tv show. Trying to increase tourism. Then everyone here will call the b.s artist.

Cant win either way. Is there a treasure in the bat cave. Maybe not,but do we wont to know that the treasure was five feet off a public road under a rock.
Every old rock and mounment would be destroyed in a matter of days.

 

[somehiker]

For those who are curious about the flight restrictions over both the Wilderness and Tonto National Forest Areas....



And as applies to most of the Superstition Wilderness Area, which is part of the "OUTLAW MOA"

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/AIR/air2501.html

If pilots, private or commercial wish to fly over or through an MOA, they may do so only when the MOA is inactive.

There IS more to the rules, but it gets complicated, so I won't get too far into it.

 

[usernotfound]

Couldn't tell which tribe....they didn't shoot no arrows at us.

That Apache was part of the three or four dot tribe. Who's is to say that those Apache's don't regular this site and combine their hobbies with their work?

 

[azdave35]

I must admit that I was hoping to hear more details about the legend,but you guys need to remember the history channel had everyone under contract,and it was the history channel who planted props,and edited the film.
Frank and gang cant win on this site.
If they post pics of gold bars they located,and tell the area. Everyone here will raise hell about then thousands of people out there hoping for the same luck.

If they say I was acting on a tv show. Trying to increase tourism. Then everyone here will call the b.s artist.

Cant win either way. Is there a treasure in the bat cave. Maybe not,but do we wont to know that the treasure was five feet off a public road under a rock.
Every old rock and mounment would be destroyed in a matter of days.

the locals have known about that cave for years and quite a few people have been in it...there is no cross..no treasure..just bat doo-doo..the ladder was put there years ago to mine guano...get that through your head..all your doing is getting idiots worked up to go try and pry the cross out of the cave..believe me..if there was a cross in that cave some idiot would have pried it out long ago

 

[somehiker]

Too tight for a drone, and the bats would go wild at the sound.
If the FS caught you using a drone up in there, you'd probably wind up in a whole lotta trouble.
Anything that WAS up there is now long gone. Just rocks and BS..t now. Trust me.

Maybe the Guano mining operation was a ruse, but we will never know unless someone talks.

 

[Azquester]

I wonder why the Bats didn't go wild during filming when those Black OPS went by?

We being conned here or what?

They go crazy for a Drone but not for a Helicopter?

Come on!!

BS ALERT!

It's real easy to super impose those choppers right in the sky.

 

[somehiker]

I wonder why the Bats didn't go wild during filming when those Black OPS went by?

We being conned here or what?

They go crazy for a Drone but not for a Helicopter?

Come on!!

BS ALERT!

It's real easy to super impose those choppers right in the sky.

They probably do if a chopper gets down low over the cave, but that would still bee 500-1000' away.
What he's talking about is a whiney buzzsaw inches away from a million bats hanging from the ceiling and walls.
It'd be like stickin your hand in a bee hive.

 

[somehiker]

The area is most definitely not too tight for a drone. They are small. Disturbing the bats is possible, may have to go early in the morning when they fly out to go eat.

What I imagine in my head is to fly the drone straight up the ladder and "park" it at the top. (they did say in the episode that the cave was right at the top of the ladder) With the LED lights and super hi-res GoPro, you'd easily be able to see 25-40 feet.

Unsure why the forest service would have any trouble with flying a drone up there. People use them all the time for doing aerial photography. Ive seen quite a few videos made with drones on YouTube on various hikes / mountain bike rides / adventures in the Superstitions and other mountain ranges here in the valley. I just saw one recently from a wedding that took place in the supes - a couple got married on one of the back trails (seemed to be their first date many years ago)

I trust you, as I am sure many others do, but we all like to see video evidence =)

The bats leave at night....most of them anyway. That's not the time when YOU want to be out there....again trust me.
As far as video goes, watch the last episode, you won't be able to do any better than that.

In the show, Wayne say's they want to be away from the bottom of the cave by dark, when the bats depart.
That is partly because there is a huge "dune" of Bat S...t. on the slope below the cave.
All that stuff that looks llike dirt....ain't dirt, it's guano.
Anyone on the ground would make a nice target for all those defacating rodents to aim for on their way out.

 

[somehiker]

Well, I can't stop you, so I'll just add a couple of cautions.
I've been out there when temps were in the 60's/70's/ and 80's.
I will never go back when it's 85 and above, which the midday temps have already gotten to out there.
And it's even higher on the slope and in the larger recess, due to the southward direction it faces.
All that dark rock and guano builds a lot of heat, which also increases the rate of methane and ammonia dispersal from the guano below.
Take cartridge respirators along, rated for those two chemicals, not just dust masks.
Insure the drone if possible, because I expect you will either damage it or lose it entirely, if it gets hung up in anything that is up there, the ropes, planking/scaffolding, jutting rocks and wires. You will have to maneuver the drone past all of that before you will be able to see anything on the inside.