OFFICERS IRISH BRIGADE BUTTON

[CRUSADER]

We are still stratching around for ideas, so we started on 2 fields that were ploughed & not planted, but had nothing. This was because it used to be marsh land before draining, so a desperate try!
Then we tried a Wood (never hunted it) which was 500 metres from a known Roman Site, but again nothing.
Then we moved to the Copse on the edge of a Roman Site, where we had found about 5 Roman coins in the past, but again nothing.
At this point the only scrappy I had was found on the side of a trackway whilst returning to the car from the Wood.
Dad decided to try the Tractor Tyre tracks whilst I was in the Copse, & did OK with 3 scrappies.
So on the way back to the car again we followed a tyre track up the middle of the field, & when I got to the end I was somewhat in front, so instead of turning left towards the car, I turned right, so as to do a loop & let Dad catch up. At the end of the loop & close to the corner of the field I got 'the button'. Made our 3 hours more than worth it, specially after doing a bit of research.

The following is my best assumption at this stage because I can't find an example of this button at all & I suspect its at least Very Rare!

Officers Silver Plated Button with Shank
S FIRMIN STRAND - Dates it to 1771-80
The only Irish Brigade I can find is linked to the 'French Irish Brigade' which dispanded in 1792.

I have really struggled on this one, so any help would be great? I am awaiting an expert opinion, so fingers crossed.

UPDATE:
Loyal Irish Brigade 1794-99

 

[Ahab8]

Well sounds like there's still lots of questions to answer which is likely a good thing. That's a great early button Cru and obviously with a different backmark maybe one that is scarce or rare. Let us know what else you learn

 

[Iron Patch]

UPDATE:

Although I have an ID, I'm a little confused by the timelines.

There was a button published only a few years back, it was attributed to the Loyal Irish Brigade 1794-99.(Short lived)
Brief History:
The Irish Brigade was formed in 1794 employing as officers many Irishmen who had served in Irish Regiments of the French Army but who had left France following the Revolution. There were originally six regiments but recruiting difficulties reduced their strength to four regiments, some serving abroad in Nova Scotia and the West Indies.

I've asked the question of the expert;
If the ‘Loyal Irish Brigade’ were formed in 1794 why does the button manufacture date to 1771-80?
NB. Published example has backmark - 'Brady Dublin', mine has S FIRMIN STRAND.

I disagree with some things that has been said so far, but what I can agree with is it's a very nice button. The one thing I can clear up is that mark definitely dates later than 1780 because it was on a non Dug British officer button I owned that was considered to be post Rev war. So I would definitely go by the history of the unit and forget the backmark. Even the mark that is considered period for Rev war, SF... dates later than 1780 as it's on 1782 issued Artillery buttons.

 

[CRUSADER]

I disagree with some things that has been said so far, but what I can agree with is it's a very nice button. The one thing I can clear up is that mark definitely dates later than 1780 because it was on a non Dug British officer button I owned that was considered to be post Rev war. So I would definitely go by the history of the unit and forget the backmark. Even the mark that is considered period for Rev war, SF... dates later than 1780 as it's on 1782 issued Artillery buttons.

So are you saying we just ignore all buttonmarks as being inaccurate, or just certain ones?

Basically, I think you are saying your happy with the 1794-99 date for the button & Reg? (which seems fine with me)

Not sure if you disagree with rarity as well?
Expert quote on that:
'I know one collector who has one with an Irish BM but I havent seen this before, its a very nice find'

 

[CRUSADER]

UPDATE:

Ok, I now have a much clearer understanding of Backmarks, I thought they were a little more concrete than they are. I knew you would get some variations because of re-use of dies, but the following clears it up from the expert, & agrees with IP thoughts:

'BMs are not an exact science despite many putting up dates that make it look so. I have recorded S FIRMIN STRAND BMs from the period 1769-96, the majority in that early period of military buttons just have SF but not all. If the unit was later than 1796 then I would be sweating but it is within what can reasonably be expected and found and actually ties in quite nicely as obviously most would be ordered when the unit was formed and just after.'

 

[Iron Patch]

So are you saying we just ignore all buttonmarks as being inaccurate, or just certain ones?

Basically, I think you are saying your happy with the 1794-99 date for the button & Reg? (which seems fine with me)

Not sure if you disagree with rarity as well?
Expert quote on that:
'I know one collector who has one with an Irish BM but I havent seen this before, its a very nice find'

I would guess it's on the rare side, but don't think a different backmark makes a lot of difference... just for record keeping maybe.

 

[park pirate]

Nice old button...

 

[BARKER]

Hi CRUSADER; I love just how much items like this button spark discussion and a lot of research by all interested parties. Great Find. I love it because I'm Boston Irish myself with many ties to Eniskillen. Let us know what else you find out ok. I agree with the re-use of BM Dies to make the button. All said and done I still value it at about $250 - $500 due to it's Rarity and Provenance.
PEACE:RONB

 

[CRUSADER]

Hi CRUSADER; I love just how much items like this button spark discussion and a lot of research by all interested parties. Great Find. I love it because I'm Boston Irish myself with many ties to Eniskillen. Let us know what else you find out ok. I agree with the re-use of BM Dies to make the button. All said and done I still value it at about $250 - $500 due to it's Rarity and Provenance.
PEACE:RONB

Thanks, I too have links to the Irish Eniskillen's. My Grandad was Irish & his Dad was in that Reg for a short period & was a surviver of WWI, even as one of the first to go over.
I agree your price is not unrealistic in the US Market, over here I would be lucky to get 10% of that, but it just reflects the difference in levels of appreciation. I also agree the research (even the false leads I followed) was an eye opener, all very interesting lost history to most.

 

[CRUSADER]

I would guess it's on the rare side, but don't think a different backmark makes a lot of difference... just for record keeping maybe.

Its kind of irrevant to me but I would have expected an unknown backmark to fetch more money than a known published example. Partly because the collector with the usual BM might want to to expand his collection & get all variants. Thats how my mine works, maybe high end button people are different because I have no indepth knowledge as a seller.

 

[BARKER]

Hi CRUSADER; Things are different here market wise. But I would never sell that for $50. NO WAY. They can stick their high noses where the sun don't shine.!!! . A suggestion is to contact an Auction House and see if they will Catalog the Button as a RARE BM Variety ok. Anyways, PEACE:RONB

 

[Patriot Relics]

Hey Crusader,

Found an enlisted pewter Loyal Irish Brigade button as well across the pond here in Charleston, SC. I was able to pin the manufacture date to 1797 based on the Dublin benchmark, but there is no reference to any Irish Brigade in the Americas prior to the civil war. This one still is a mystery to me...the date does correspond with your research though.

 

[Iron Patch]

Its kind of irrevant to me but I would have expected an unknown backmark to fetch more money than a known published example. Partly because the collector with the usual BM might want to to expand his collection & get all variants. Thats how my mine works, maybe high end button people are different because I have no indepth knowledge as a seller.

I think you a have a hurdle just to get to a good price, regardless of backmark. I can't even recall seeing a button that didn't see service in North America getting over 200 pounds, and it takes a pretty darn good one to get 100. I do think there would be some strong bidding, but the question is what the ceiling is for the UK buyers. There would not be a great number who would collect these, and I would highly doubt anyone advanced enough to be collecting by backmark.... not to say they still would not want it, and be happy it was different. just don't think it would work that way on those button say compared to a well known numbered Regiment.

 

[CRUSADER]

Hey Crusader,

Found an enlisted pewter Loyal Irish Brigade button as well across the pond here in Charleston, SC. I was able to pin the manufacture date to 1797 based on the Dublin benchmark, but there is no reference to any Irish Brigade in the Americas prior to the civil war. This one still is a mystery to me...the date does correspond with your research though.

View attachment 1119092View attachment 1119093

Amazing, just think, my Officer 'may' have known your enlisted man!

 

[CRUSADER]

I think you a have a hurdle just to get to a good price, regardless of backmark. I can't even recall seeing a button that didn't see service in North America getting over 200 pounds, and it takes a pretty darn good one to get 100. I do think there would be some strong bidding, but the question is what the ceiling is for the UK buyers. There would not be a great number who would collect these, and I would highly doubt anyone advanced enough to be collecting by backmark.... not to say they still would not want it, and be happy it was different. just don't think it would work that way on those button say compared to a well known numbered Regiment.

Oh ok, if we are only talking UK buyers, then the price is next to nothing.

 

[Iron Patch]

Oh ok, if we are only talking UK buyers, then the price is next to nothing.

It's not about whether it's UK or American buyers, it's about what it is. UK buttons don't fetch big prices in the U.S. either, most obscure ones, which many of the militia types are, would do worse. Americans want buttons that have American history, so maybe if someone had dug it there it would be a little more interesting, but not much being it dates to the 1790s. UK sellers, diggers, whatever, probably have the idea that Americans pay a fortune for any old buttons and coppers, when the reality is it's only a small % that get the big money.... mostly the buttons which date to the Rev War, and the unit seen action there, and for coppers it's the better counterfeits. There so much trading between Europe and North America now there is very little difference in price. The button's value is purely based on the demand, and the demand would be Brits and not Americans, and that's why it might not have a real high value.