Pipe Found Help ID ? Moved

Hunter1805

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[h=2]Pipe[/h]
I was in a field and had a signal and dug down looking for the metal and out comes the rarest pipe ever found "So I am told", a contact period Soapstone Pipe with letters on it. It has early colonial European letters on it most likely Jesuit contact around 1550-1650. I understand that No other pipe ever found has letters on it. It has a cross on the back, the letters H and S. We are looking for signers of treaties signed around then to help ID who the pipe was made for or the owners of the pipe. I then looked at the cross on the back and said if it was not a cross and it was a letter such as the letter I then it would read "" I H S "" as on top of the cross "In His Service" Folks I need to know what else you can tell me about it. and the value of such an item. I believe it has potential to be worth many thousands. Its face is that of a snapping turtle. Any private e-mails would also be appreciated. Thanks for looking​
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Last edited by Hunter1805; Jun 03, 2013 at 09:13 PM. Reason: MISSING WORD​
 
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What you have first is the bowl of a pipe. How old I don't know.
 
That's absolutely fantastic. I'd rather find that than an old coin
 
First..what state was this found in?
Also.. is soap stone available there?
 
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Hunter a little more info would help. It is a rare unusual item to be sure. Was it east coast?
 
Hunter a little more info would help. It is a rare unusual item to be sure. Was it east coast?

It was found in the WNY area. The local college stated that the letters are Early Colonial European. The Cross, the letters, must have had contact with the Jesuits who preached to the Indians here in WNY and came down from Quebec Canada around 1550-1650. Pipe bowl... Yes it is but they used reeds to insert into the cone shaped hole in the bowl and passed the bowl while each person had their own reed to draw smoke from. This is the only indian pipe from the contact period that has ever been found with letters on it. Some my say symbols not letters but the university stated these are letters and they match the style of the colonial period.
 
How can you be sure its Indian in origin? Does it match the manufacturing style of known Native American pipes in your area?
I'm just wondering why could it not be colonial made... it has colonial letters...and Reed pipes were a colonial item.
Did the college comment on the pipe itself?
Did they belive it to be a Calumet? "Peace pipe"
 
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I guess it could be but this is a typical of Indian pipes found in this area. Many Indian settlements existed in the Niagara Region. IT could have been made for a person of Statute. Treaty signers of the period are being reviewed by the university to see if signers or landowners initials match. The Snapping turtle head helps push the pipe being more Indian then Jesuit but made for a person of importance.
 
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Very nice find ! It doesent look like a snapping turtle though.It has ears.
 
the "I" appears to be plow marks,it is not the same depth or quality as the other letters .also the letters i see are H S H .what are those marks on the bottom?what kind of metal/glass are you finding at this site?The local college is often the WORST place for accurate info.....
 
I wonder what the chances are that a fur trapper made a pipe out of local steatite.
I can't see a native pipe of importance being left in that state of completion.
The head looks to me like a Fisher.
A very lucrative fur animal in the fur trapping industry of the northeast.
Most of the farm land there was forest before it was logged and cleared for farming.

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May we see some pictures of the inside of the bowl? And also the stem hole? This sure looks aboriginal to me (if it is real).

Kindest regards,

Monty
 
For some reason I can't get past the fact that there is colonial writing on it.
My logic would tell me the highest likelihood would be colonial manufacture.
I don't think a Native would carve initials into the side of a bowl ... in white man style no less.
Looking closely It appears to me that the initials were added at a later date than the holes...
Actually the holes look to be the only things that were complete at the time everything else was added. The patina of the plow scars and scratches match the rest of the carving...minus the holes.
Mabey It was found in colonial times and personalized by the finder.
Here is a Susquehannan effigy pipe of what looks like the same animal.
 

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How can you be sure its Indian in origin? Does it match the manufacturing style of known Native American pipes in your area?
I'm just wondering why could it not be colonial made... it has colonial letters...and Reed pipes were a colonial item.
Did the college comment on the pipe itself?
Did they belive it to be a Calumet? "Peace pipe"

I believe the various Iroquois tribes produced more effigy pipes beginning Late Prehistoric then any other group in the northeast US. Very well known for effigy pipes in general. A colonial is also not likely to place a cross on the backside. Given the history of the strong influence of Jesuit missionaries in what is now New York State in the 16th and 17th centuries, that's almost surely a native mark, not Colonial. As is the effigy form. As is the style of pipe, a bowl pipe. That seems clearly Native American. I just cannot imagine a colonist carving a Native American style pipe, and then putting a cross on the back to denote his faith. If that's what it does denote, that is. But a Christianized native might do just that, put a cross on the pipe. Iroquois sites in NYS are "littered" with Jesuit trade rings bearing the cross.

just saw your last comment. Sure, initials could have been added later, could have been found and added to. The initials do look "fresher", but my own experience with steatite is that can be a real tough thing to judge. On a lot of my steatite sherds, the scraping marks from manufacturing are lighter then the host piece. The manufacturing marks can look pretty fresh. Steatite is weird that way, in my experience, and IMO. No doubting the European style of the lettering. The Jesuits did educate the natives, as well as convert, which was the foremost goal for the Jesuits.



"I wonder what the chances are that a fur trapper made a pipe out of local steatite.
I can't see a native pipe of importance being left in that state of completion.
The head looks to me like a Fisher.
A very lucrative fur animal in the fur trapping industry of the northeast.
Most of the farm land there was forest before it was logged and cleared for farming."



It's a great pipe, but effigy pipes that are complete are found all the time, as is most every other class of artifact.
it might have been important to the individual, but what is a "native pipe of importance"? I don't think we need to invoke, for instance, that it had to belong to a sachem or was of tribal wide importance. Lots and lots of completed soapstone effigy pipes found here in the Northeast. Just not enough so we can all own a real one for 20 bucks. LOL. It's always possible a Frenchman gone native could carve such a pipe for himself, but the path of least resistance probably remains native simply because the style is so common in the Northeast, except for those letters but of course.

Here are 2 pendants from Maine, from a village site that saw French Jesuit missionaries for decades.
 

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The "cross" looks like happenstance to me. Like the rest of the scratches surrounding it.
"If" the only thing that makes it look like an effigy pipe has a diffinitively different patina than the holes ... they were almost certainly made at different times.
"If" that is the case the only thing that would make it's original form native American is the material.. we still haven't seen a close up of the holes to get a better idea of how those were made.
" pipe of importance"
Simply meant something made as a gift... something special.
 
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the "I" appears to be plow marks,it is not the same depth or quality as the other letters .also the letters i see are H S H .what are those marks on the bottom?what kind of metal/glass are you finding at this site?The local college is often the WORST place for accurate info.....

This is a very good post.
 

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