Pirate Treasure-Trying to get a permit to dig up

[Denniss]

I Don't even think that'll work.

Find someone who can claim they are a Minority to file for you.
when they are turned down, all they need do is contact the news,
mention discrimination .
you's will have your permission shortly & will be allowed to keep all you dig on top of it.

That's just it, they don't turn things down, a mailed request goes into a pile, emails don't get answered, phone calls don't get returned

Dear sir

We appreciate your concern with our dept, please be advised that we are aware of your project. Due to budget and personnel cuts our agency is faced with a backlog, we will get back to you as soon as possible Please be patient our staff is working to meet our customers needs, due to a substantial bakclog this may take some time

Then he goes back to his crossword puzzle.


If you are really persistent they will bury you in BS. We need a form 1157 from the EPA, an assesment report from the corp of engineers, a release from the FDOT, an engineering report that this will not change the drainage of the roadway, an aerial photograph of the area, a release from the boy scouts and a bond of 2 million dollars before we can start the permit process

 

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[Bigdogdad]

You may be absolutely right. Your example shows what is wrong with our government. Their job should be to see how they can help. They think it is their job to try and stop stuff like this. Denniss- are you suggesting that I give up or are you just trying to prepare me for what I may face? I still think what I need is media support. TV, newspapers, National Enquirer, etc. I am prepared to make a really big deal out of this.

Did I mention that I like attention? I don't consider it a fault. Maybe I will start a hunger strike until I get my way. I could stand to lose some weight. Maybe I will get a sign and picket the site. Maybe I will throw a temper tantrum. Maybe I will claim that my long lost uncle was a pirate and the silver belongs to me.

I talked with Chase-N-Dreams. She is ready to help me with this. It sounds like she also knows how to get things done.

 

[Bigdogdad]

I have been posting on another site called Swamp Gold. The threadstarter seems to have a negative attitude about dowsing. I have noticed that a lot of people on Treasurenet also feel this way. There is a forum on TN devoted to dowsing. I wonder if the non-believers go on that site and tell them it does not work. Because so much of my story is based on the efforts of a dowser, I am going to try to explain my "take" on treasure hunting in different forms.

When I first met the dowser, Ovid, I really did not know anything about dowsing other than I heard you could use a forked stick to find water. I had never tried it or seen it done by anybody. I was willing to have an open mind about it. I did not start out convinced one way or another whether it worked or not. I have since found that negativity can affect a dowsers success, just as negativity can affect just about anything else.

As soon as I got Ovid in the car he was ready to pull out his pendulum and point in the direction we were needing to go in order to get to a treasure site. The sight of this 87 year old man sitting in the passenger seat of my wife's Trans Am swinging this brass tube on a string while we were traveling 70 mph down the highway looked almost comical. I did not want him to think I was doubting him in anyway. Although I was driving I was pretty much along for the ride.

From miles away he led us to our first stop which was in a small town in North Carolina named Ruby. He led us to a small house just off the highway. I pulled into the driveway and parked. He sat there swinging his pendulum. It swung towards the back yard. As I watched him very closely I could tell that he was making the pendulum swing that way. I had my doubts about what I was getting myself into but I figured what the heck.

I knocked on the front door. Nobody was home. Ovid got out and pointed to a tree in the back yard. He said the gold was next to the tree. I did not know what to do next. I thought about getting out a shovel I had brought along and just walking out back and digging a quick hole. Of course this would be tresspassing. Now I am no angel but I did not think this would be a good way to start off our trip together. We had a long way to go to get to Florida and I wanted him to show me where the pirate chests in Englewood were. We got in the car and headed south.

I got him safely to my home in SW Florida. He needed his prescription filled for his medicine to fight the pancreatic cancer he had. On the way to the drugstore I knew we would pass by a known pirate camp. I may be repeating part of what I already posted on this thread. From a half mile away he said he felt the pull of buried treasure. As we passed by on the highway he pointed with his pendulum into the camp and said there was definitely something there.

I took him there the next day and he showed me a spot that he said was all silver. This was in 1987. 25 years ago. This was to be the start of many adventures for Ovid and I. The next day he showed me the location in Englewood where he said a pirate chest was buried. I took him many other places on that first trip. I took him back to North Carolina and then planned the Englewood pirate chest dig.

Needless to say I was not able to dig up any chest. In fact I made a disaster of the whole thing. It cost me time, money, a lot of effort, and a loss of credibility. It was definitley a learning experience. I decided to learn as much as I could about dowsing and to see what else was available to use to go after treasure. In the process I met a couple of very interesting guys.

These guys had created thier own metal detectors using parts from microwave ovens and radar detectors. They claimed they could use their machine to find gold and silver at a long distance as compared to detectors available to the public. I told them about my friend Ovid's dowsing abilities. They did not believe a word of it. We agreed to meet at the pirate camp. I told them that when they got there to just set up their machine and to see what they came up with. Without going into detail they ended up showing me a place on the ground that they said was a huge pile of silver. Yes, it was the same place Ovid had marked.

This now had their attention. They still did not believe in dowsing but they were definitely intrigued. I told them I would go to North Carolina and get Ovid, bring him to Florida, and they could put him thru a series of tests to see if his abilities were for real. I brought him down, he passed the tests, and now they were hooked.

I will not go into further detail at this time. What I want to put on here is what I have learned about the various ways of trying to find a cache of treasure.

What the guys told me was that Ovid was somehow able to find anomolies in the ground. In other words, he could find a location that was different then what was around it. They used what they learned from him an incorporated it into their next detector. What they had come up with would be called a LRL or long range locator.

Now I have seen LRL's mentioned on TN and there seems to be a lot of negativity about them just as there is with dowsing. I think they are one and the same. One is based on a man made electronic device and the other is based on a human form of a sixth sense. I have seen them both work. Seeing IS believing.

I have heard many people make negative claims about dowsing. They probably have either never tried it or if they did, it did not work for them. Of course they may own a metal detector and know that it works. Maybe they had heard claims from so called dowsers saying that they could do all sorts of crazy things with their rods and pendulums. There are a lot of wackos out there making big claims about a lot of things. There are people that think I am crazy.

Here's the deal. Most people don't follow thru far enough to know what works. Just because a metal detector goes off does not mean there is anything valuable to be found. The only way to know for sure is to dig. Digging is a lot of work. People want quick easy success. Same with dowsing. Just because a rod or pendulum says there is something there does not mean it is something valuable. You have to dig to find out. Digging is a lot of work. Do you see my point. Nothing is as easy as it sounds.

Ovid spent 35 years dowsing before I met him. He had gotten better over the years thru trial and error. He was willing to try to dig when he was younger. He found many things for many people. He had fine-tuned his dowsing abilities and made many different pendulums to use to perfect his detecting.

Now take metal detectors. There are many,many different kinds. The manufactures make huge claims as to how well the detectors work. The majority of them do not detect very deep and the ones that claim to go real deep are usually not tested by the average user to see if they really work. If it claims it will detect a large object at 12 feet, how many people will keep digging until they reach 12 feet. Not many. Each machine has its own characteristics. You have to use one a long time and only thru trial and error (lots of digging) will you learn if and how well it really works.

Now as far a LRL's. This is even harder to test. There are some makers that claim that these will detect gold miles away. This may sound ludicris to most people, but the makers of these devices will swear that they work. Testing them is not easy. There is so much stuff buried out in the world that you may not know where to start. The technology of these can be compared to GPS units or smart phones. An expert can tell you how it works but it gets a little complicated. Do you need to know how a compass works to be able to use it. It is a given that it always points to magnetic north. How does it do this? Does it matter?

The point of all this is that you should not make fun of or tell someone that something does not work just because you may not have any experience with it or understand it. By having a closed mind and emitting negativity you are only limiting your own abilities to find "treasure". Good luck with whatever method you choose. There are more that I have not talked about.

 

[jeff of pa]

That's just it, they don't turn things down, a mailed request goes into a pile, emails don't get answered, phone calls don't get returned

Dear sir

We appreciate your concern with our dept, please be advised that we are aware of your project. Due to budget and personnel cuts our agency is faced with a backlog, we will get back to you as soon as possible Please be patient our staff is working to meet our customers needs, due to a substantial bakclog this may take some time

Then he goes back to his crossword puzzle.


If you are really persistent they will bury you in BS. We need a form 1157 from the EPA, an assesment report from the corp of engineers, a release from the FDOT, an engineering report that this will not change the drainage of the roadway, an aerial photograph of the area, a release from the boy scouts and a bond of 2 million dollars before we can start the permit process

a release from the boy scouts ?
do you have to buy girl scout cookies too ?

 

[FreedomUIC]

Since you told the DOT and everyone here where the treasure is.I doupt it will be there after you waste all your time trying to do it legal.Im sure one of those DOT guys or friends and relatives is over there right now digging with flashlights.You will know who got the treasure if any one of them quits their job real soon.There are only a few rivers that I-75 go over.The little manatee,manatee river,alafia river and peace river.Peace river has been known for a pirate hangout area.

You forgot the Myakka river.

 

[Bigdogdad]

The state archaeologist has been out of town on a dig site. He may be back tomorrow. I am going to do my best to pressure him into allowing the dig. I will try to convince him it would be in his best interest to help see that we dig up any pirate silver and get it to a safe place. If he does not work with me it may be time to go public with the whole deal. I am not getting any help so far from the local officials.

 

[signal]

Jeff that is a pretty slick idea........reality is, its how the system works, so work the system

 

[lorddean13]

Go there with a detector and if you get a hit dig it up. Seems like no one wants to help you so pull a coin out and hire a lawyer. Most lawyers get paid up front it is called a retainer, the ones who work off commission are accident lawyers or what we like to call them ambulance chasers. Prove it is there, keep the location a secret and hell if you can not get any help go at it with night vision and get what you can. To get the pirate gold sometimes you have to be the pirate.

 

[Bigdogdad]

There is a pile of non-ferrous heavy metal there. It is against the law to dig it up without a permit. My lawyer and I talked today. He thinks I have a very good case for getting permission to dig. If I expect to get a share, I have to do things legally. I do not want to get my hands on it only to have it taken away. I am meeting with the Tampa reporter again in the morning. The poops about to hit the fan. I am starting to lose patience.

Basically it is considered an abandoned treasure trove. As I have now brought it to the attention of the "authorities" they cannot ignore it or they are being negligent in their duty to look out for the taxpayers paying their salary.

 

[signal]

Bigdogdad, I agree that if there was treasure there, they should dig it up, so the taxpayers can take their cut. However, all of this comes back to, how do we know there is in fact treasure there?

A man found what he believed to be treasure, and had good proof. He was denied in the State of Florida:
TreasureWorks - Treasure the memory, don't dig up beach, Palm Beach County tells treasure hunter

In your case, you just saying there is treasure is not proof enough. You have to give some sort of compelling proof. When it comes out that the providence of your belief is a dowser, or that it was using a machine that is unique and cannot be produced, they may just write you off. I am just playing devils advocate. I would think they would want proof. Saying you will prove to them if they give you permission is a circular argument. Compelling evidence would need to be presented, I would think. I would personally think that any mention of Ovid, dowsing, machines that no one knows about, etc. could possibly harm your position.

I do wish you the best of luck, I am curious to see what is found.

 

[peralta]

I understand your situation and I was told that you have to go in with all your documents, pictures or whatever you have to prove that its there then they decide if you convinced them.my problem is that even if they believe you, they can say no and they have all your information.i know I have it but think that maybe ill try for my permit when the moon turns green.good luck.

 

[Bigdogdad]

Signal--I have not put all my cards on the table. If I am convinced it is there the only way to "proove" it is to dig it up. I have gone over this argument before. Please give me a a couple of examples of what you would consider "proof". Remember, this is in the middle of a documented pirate camp.

I read the article you mentioned. Do they really think that will be the end of it? If there is something there somebody will dig it up without permission and the state will get nothing. Because they will be doing it illegally no one will know if it is dug up. Therefore it will become a "legend" and people will dig for it for years to come. Maybe a developer with deep pockets will apply to build a condo project and the state archaeologists can "discover" the chest in the process. My site is not in a state park. The DOT is using a similar argument like the one in the article. It's kind of short-sighted and naive.

peralta-I am not going to give them anything. I have lived in this county for the last 44 years. I am known by many people. I stand behind the reputation I have earned in other ventures. If I say there is something there they should let me try to proove it. It will cost them nothing.

 

[signal]

Bigdogdad, I guess proof would be some sort of information public or private, authenticated (to the best it can) that would give compelling evidence that a treasure exists.

As for the article, I am disappointed. This guy did "the right thing", he notified the county/state and showed he had used equipment to show that there was indeed a object that would lead most to believe its a buried treasure. The county/state refused. Will it get dug up? Probably, probably by the county/state, and they will keep it to themselves. They will find it "accidentally" while doing some other project. This has been hashed here time and time again, there doesn't seem to be many winning situations where people do the right thing. It always comes back to what has been said here many times.

Rules of Treasure Hunting:

1. Do NOT find any treasure
2. If you do find any treasure, do NOT tell anyone

 

[Bigdogdad]

How good of a record keeping system do you think the pirates had? Do you think they left behind treasure maps like in the movies? This was a known pirate camp, where do you think they kept their booty? Maybe at the First Federal Pirate Booty Bank? I tend to believe they buried it the best they could and hoped to dig it up one day.

Read this------I am going to get permission to try to dig up what I hope to be pirate treasure at Rocky Bluff!

 

[ECS]

To ECS-This was a known pirate camp for over 300 years. I don't know that any "famous" pirate hung out there. It was a permanent type of camp. They had a lookout spot on a point closer to the gulf. It had a creek which was essential to them. There were other factors which made it a great place to hangout. I have no problem answering almost any question posed to me about this treasure or any other claim I have made.

BDD,you do seem to show disdane for historical facts when it comes to a treasure legend,as demonstrated on another thread.
As I have mentioned on that thread,I am pragmatic,so I ask:
A known pirate camp for 300 years?Known by whom?
No "famous pirates",they just hungout for the fun & sun?
Unknown pirates buried silver at a hangout?
Don't you figure that a little more research with a base in historical fact that could be documented would make your claims to the State of Florida more credible?
Do tell,do you have any real evidence that there is silver buried at this site,or is it just pirates hung out there and a dowser claimes X marks the spot.A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[lorddean13]

Actually pirates had very detailed records. It is a known fact the pirate ships were direct democracies. The men voted on who was captain, it was not just hey you are all my slaves because I am broke, I stole a ship and you will work for nothing. It was a hired crew similar to the boat crews of today. All members had a stake at what they found and claimed. This has been documented. So why would a few of them hide all their money in such outlandish places. Most pirate treasure is found when the ship sank and nothing could be moved. There is a section at this link that repeats these well documented facts I am just asking some logical questions. I have been at this activity for a few years but I do it for a living. I am a historical researcher by trade so excuse me if I sound skeptic. Right now I am excavating a newly discovered historic site in Delaware county, and it takes some hard core evidence to get the proof we needed to get the dig permits.

 

[aquanut]

Big Guys,
Some things are better left unsaid. These folks are fishing and there is no real point in feeding the fish here. There are no answers here that haven't already been considered. You don't have to prove anything to the forum members.
Aquanut

 

[Bigdogdad]

ECS--I do not have a disdain for historical facts. The "facts" are only as good as their source. I just get tired of people who think they are going to dig up treasure while sitting at a keyboard. Sometimes you have to put a shovel in the ground. I have a lot of interests and have found a lot of times so-called "facts" are not what they seem. A lot of times it boils down to a matter of opinion. You lnow the saying about opinions, don't you?

"A known pirate camp" according to the history of the area. I could not tell you if it is listed on the offical "historical' listing of all known pirate camps, but it did exist. Gosh I am sorry to say that I know of no "famous pirates" that hung out there. I did hear that Johnny Depp drove past it one time. Yeah, the "unknown pirates" buried silver, is that hard to believe? The local officials know of the pirate camp. Lack of credibility is not what is stopping the process here. As far as evidence, why don't you try "researching" everything I have said about this. I think you will find through the "hard work" of searching for this info that there is more to it than just dowsing. ECS- why do you have such a disdain for my story and dowsing?

lorddean13--You think the ground is considered an "outlandish" place to hide something? Please give me some examples of where the pirates would hide their personal stash? Under their bed"? The top shelf in their closet? In their piggy bank? If your so smart, tell us where you would hide it. Yeah I don't doubt that they find treasure on a ship when it sinks. They were known to have land bases as they had to have food and fresh water. Do you suppose it's possible that they may have hidden some of their "booty" at the camp? Naw, that would make too much sense. That's nice that you get paid to do historical research, are you an archaeologist? I see by your profile that you have some "Rockin the Skull Candy noise cancelling ear buds". Those sound really cool, where can I get me some?

BCH--A lot of things have supposedly already been found at this site. That's partly why it is a "known" pirate camp. Yes, there could be nothing but junk at my spot. Why someone went to the trouble of burying it up under a layer of solid limestone needs to be answered. As far as metal detectors, I have done no metal detecting on this site. For more info ask your "sources". I heard that they said it was "heavy" non-ferrous metal.

I said from the start that I am a blabbermouth. Nobody's perfect. This will get dug up legally by the the people that found it. If it was not for my big mouth the only people that would know anything about this would be me and a dead 92 year old dowser. I am very optimistic about the future and so far have no regrets.

 

[aquanut]

Bigdogdad quote:

"I said from the start that I am a blabbermouth. Nobody's perfect. This will get dug up legally by the the people that found it. If it was not for my big mouth the only people that would know anything about this would be me and a dead 92 year old dowser. I am very optimistic about the future and so far have no regrets."

You So Funny!
Aquanut

 

[lorddean13]

Big if you are so sure that you want to belittle anyone trying to give you some solid advise then why don't you hop out from behind your keyboard and go get something to prove your claim. FYI I have a masters in Archeology and my PHd in history. Yeah I rock the Skull Candy noise canceling head phones (**** I'm only in my 30's not some cranky old man). I have been digging sites since I graduated in 2003. I was detecting before that since i was 12. I have been working on the Jamestown settlement for the past 3 years and before that I helped uncover the Presidents house in Philly. I work with a lot of archeologists and yeah I get paid to research things. Am I an archeologist? No. I am an historian with the credentials and the experience to back it up. Right now though all you have presented us here is a story. This is how it is seen and this is why you can't get a permit. We had to find, document and date a 16th century foundation before anyone would even consider giving us a permit. That's why we can get a permit and dig and you aren't getting that lucky. I am saying there are hundreds of treasure stories out there and until something is found they are just stories and no one is going to let you tear up their property based on a story. That is unless you have some evidence. Some one will dig up Rocky Bluff while you fight to get a permit, they'll find nothing and the story will continue, or they will present their find as evidence so they can get a permit and pick the place clean before you get to dig. That's how the world works.

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