Solved? more input needed on old no-name pistol

[dozer dan]

here are the pictures of my pistol. the only pictures i could find to match it is the griswold and gunnison. my pistol is .36 cal. brass frame with a round barrel. there is no name on it. the ser. # is in the 17,000s and stamped two times on the brass, one time on the cylinder, and one time under the barrel assembly. all ser. #s match. the ser #s are erratic as they are not aligned well. the rod is 2 piece construction, in the pictures you can see this. there also appeares to be a blood etched finger print on the underside of the barrel. one person i asked to examin it said he thought he saw a tiny stamping on the cylinder of a crescent moon with a star in it. i however do not see this.
i am grateful for your interest and any info you could provide. sorry about the pic's. im still catchin on. Dan

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Minelab PRO-FIND 35 Waterproof Pinpointer Metal Detector for Experts with Tone ID & Adjustable Sensitivity - Grab it through Amazon!

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

come on, wake up. theres got to be something we haven't thought of or mentioned yet.


don't be shy. im interested in any opinions.

OK I wont be shy. I dont want to keep beating a dead horse, repeating what has been said. I will say it one more time that I agree with the others, you need to take two different size bolts to the hardware store and hold them side by side interlocking the threads until you find a match. I hope you dont take this the wrong way but it appears you have given up too easily on a method that may solve this mystery. If you are not able to do this yourself then you should be able to find someone at Loews or another hardware store knowlegable enough to help you. So far you have found one metric thread match. Doesnt prove anything but if you find another, of a different size that is also metric, that will seal the deal. I realize it is not easy comparing such small thread sizes. Do you have a nipple wrench? You can remove a nipple and compare it to a replacement from a gun dealer. Put oil on the threads and dont force strip it, hand tighten carefully.

BTW I think its a beautiful gun original or not. Does it fire? I have nothing else to add at this time. sorry.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Upgraded Night Vision Monocular Digital Infrared Monocular Telescope for 100% Darkness with 8X Zoom - Grab it through Amazon!

[dozer dan]

Re: old no-name pistol

i have done all this stuff. the biggest screw in the gun is still very small and aged and hard to compare with a new one.

the expert a Lowe's got his butt chewed after i explained the situation and he STILL tried to force the screw into a comparison chart nut.

as far as giving up on this too easy, the stuff i mentioned that i have tried so far to solve this mystry is just a drop in the bucket. myself and a lot of other people have been working on this for 3 years now and yet we're still no closer to the answer. numerous emails, pictures, phonecalls and the list goes on.

as far as firing it, not even on a drunken bet!

maybe i should bury the pistol with that dead horse you were talking about.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

i have done all this stuff. the biggest screw in the gun is still very small and aged and hard to compare with a new one.

the expert a Lowe's got his butt chewed after i explained the situation and he STILL tried to force the screw into a comparison chart nut.

as far as giving up on this too easy, the stuff i mentioned that i have tried so far to solve this mystry is just a drop in the bucket. myself and a lot of other people have been working on this for 3 years now and yet we're still no closer to the answer. numerous emails, pictures, phonecalls and the list goes on.

as far as firing it, not even on a drunken bet!

maybe i should bury the pistol with that dead horse you were talking about.

You said dont be shy so I will get right to the point. No1 you should NEVER force a bolt into a threaded hole or allow anyone else to. This doesnt prove anything, and he could have damaged your threads. No. 2 I dont like repeating myself but you need to try the thread to thread side by side method as described.I used this method as an electrician when I replaced tiny rusted screws with stainless on outside boxes. It sounds like you need somebody that knows what they are doing in hardware. To be blunt, its not brain surgery. Try cleaning the threads carefully with a wire wheel and/or use some lubricating gun oil. Good luck and try to be patient.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

Did you try soaking in penetrating oil and removing a nipple with a nipple wrench? This all needed to be dissassembled for cleaning everytime it was fired. They are probably not the original nipples but they do have larger threads easier for you to compare maybe. You can but a metric replacement nipple to see if its the same. But never force a thread. Clean it and oil it. You can even clean the threads carefully with a thread tap chaser and a lot of oil.

 

[dcinffxva]

Re: old no-name pistol

IT SEEMS EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS PISTOL IS A DEAD END. I MAY JUST HAVE A REALY INTERESTING DOORSTOP OR PAPERWEIGHT. I GET DISCOURAGED EVERY TIME I OPEN THIS CAN OF WORMS, THROW IT BACK IN THE CLOSET AND FORGET ABOUT IT FOR A WHILE. THEN WHEN I CALM DOWN (ABOUT 6 MONTHS LATER) I GO BRAIN DEAD AND GET IT BACK OUT AND START IT ALL OVER AGAIN. I COULD SAVE A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT BY JUST GOING OUT IN THE BACK YARD AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST A TREE UNTILL THE URGE TO GET THE PISTOL BACK OUT GOES AWAY. OR JUST SELL THE DARN THING AND BE DONE WITH IT.

It wouldn't be a dead end if you would get an expert examination of the actual revolver, not just photos.

You've gotten some good tips here. If the threads are metric, don't waste your time and money on an appraisal. If they are standard, and you believe it is possible that it is a confederate made revolver, then spend the couple of bucks for the appraisal. With that SN though, I'd still say the odds of it being confederate are minimal.

 

[dozer dan]

Re: old no-name pistol

i have done all this stuff. the biggest screw in the gun is still very small and aged and hard to compare with a new one.

the expert a Lowe's got his butt chewed after i explained the situation and he STILL tried to force the screw into a comparison chart nut.

as far as giving up on this too easy, the stuff i mentioned that i have tried so far to solve this mystry is just a drop in the bucket. myself and a lot of other people have been working on this for 3 years now and yet we're still no closer to the answer. numerous emails, pictures, phonecalls and the list goes on.

as far as firing it, not even on a drunken bet!

maybe i should bury the pistol with that dead horse you were talking about.

You said don't be shy so I will get right to the point. No1 you should NEVER force a bolt into a threaded hole or allow anyone else to. This doesn't prove anything, and he could have damaged your threads. No. 2 I don't like repeating myself but you need to try the thread to thread side by side method as described.I used this method as an electrician when I replaced tiny rusted screws with stainless on outside boxes. It sounds like you need somebody that knows what they are doing in hardware. To be blunt, its not brain surgery. Try cleaning the threads carefully with a wire wheel and/or use some lubricating gun oil. Good luck and try to be patient.

no 1- did you read in my post where i said the expert at Lowe's got his butt chewed for trying to force the
screw?

no 2- i did hold the screw up to several comparisons screws. the result? it kinda matched up with both,
but didn't fully match up with either.

no 3- i did take a mild brass wire brush to a couple of the screws and it helped, but i refuse to let a
wire wheel orthread chaser anywhere around it. once damage like that is done, it cant be undone
and accidents do happen.

no 4- experts? everyone i have taken this pistol to for evaluation/appraisal assured me that THEY where experts
then once again gave mixed reviews even in Reno one of the biggest gun shows and gathering of
antique gun "experts" in the nation.

no 5-?? and some more

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

I suggest to keep this bumped up and someone may come along to help. I still dont understand why you could not match up the threads. When you hold the two bolts together the threads will interlock with each other when its a match. You will know when you see it. If it didnt match with either, then you didnt find the right thread yet. Im sure if you went to 72cheyennes hardware store he could help you.

BTW I didnt mean to use a tap or die. I have a thread chaser kit (looks like a die)that cleans a bolts threads and doesnt cut it. I guess an accident could happen if you never done it before. You should be able to match the thread. You just havent found the right person to help you.

 

[cheese]

Re: old no-name pistol

Something that may be noteworthy is that the stamps used to put the serial numbers on each different piece do not match. Some 1s have the line across the bottom, some don't...as well as other differences. I would tend to think a repro would have had all parts stamped at one sitting with one set of stamps. Makes me think it's the real deal.

 

[dozer dan]

Re: old no-name pistol

theres a lot of stuff about it that makes me think its the real deal.

it looks to me like each individual number was "hand stamped", not by a machine
by the way they are not stamped in a straight line.

and once again......... by the old timey numbers.

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

Once again I'll point out a few things.

1257 is the ORIGINAL serial number stamped by the factory. The 17212 number was stamped later by hand on most of the parts. My theory on this is thus, the cylinder could be from maybe something else like a "colt navy", the serial number on the cylinder is stamped by a factory, and thus I think it's either a replacement part or a part from a Colt. Then after it was installed the serial number from the cylinder was then stamped BY HAND on the rest of the gun, maybe by union forces after the gun was captured or maybe just some owner along the way throughout the years.

Does anyone know what serial numbers were on the Colt Navy's? Are the cylinders compatible?

 

[dozer dan]

Re: old no-name pistol

a few minutes ago i sent some more pictures to westpoint military museum. we'll see what happens.

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

I hope you get a answer from them!

As for my theory of the cylinder being from a Colt Navy is incorrect. Colt's had "US PATENT ****" stamped on the cylinders.

The Cylinder now appears to be a part from either a clone or some sort of replacement part. I still stand by my belief that the frame though is original.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

Looks like someone went through a lot of trouble hand stamping numbers. Is it usual to have serial numbers in so many different places?

I was told that .36 caliber is Navy and the Army used .44. So if authentic would be Confederate Navy?

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

Looks like someone went through a lot of trouble hand stamping numbers. Is it usual to have serial numbers in so many different places?

I was told that .36 caliber is Navy and the Army used .44. So if authentic would be Confederate Navy?

I was told that at first but you could get a Colt Navy in .44 as well. The "Navy" simply meant that it was built lighter than the standard Dragoon models.

Then there was the "Navy" Sheriff (which had a short barrel) and even a long barreled version with a "shoulder buttstock".

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

Looks like someone went through a lot of trouble hand stamping numbers. Is it usual to have serial numbers in so many different places?

I was told that .36 caliber is Navy and the Army used .44. So if authentic would be Confederate Navy?

I was told that at first but you could get a Colt Navy in .44 as well. The "Navy" simply meant that it was built lighter than the standard Dragoon models.

Then there was the "Navy" Sheriff (which had a short barrel) and even a long barreled version with a "shoulder buttstock".

I realize that but did the Confederate Army use .36 caliber?

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

Looks like someone went through a lot of trouble hand stamping numbers. Is it usual to have serial numbers in so many different places?

I was told that .36 caliber is Navy and the Army used .44. So if authentic would be Confederate Navy?

I was told that at first but you could get a Colt Navy in .44 as well. The "Navy" simply meant that it was built lighter than the standard Dragoon models.

Then there was the "Navy" Sheriff (which had a short barrel) and even a long barreled version with a "shoulder buttstock".

I realize that but did the Confederate Army use .36 caliber?

yes

http://www.civilwarpreservations.com/newmus85.html

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

Thanks for the link. I see the serial numbers are stamped almost everywhere but something I noticed that the numbers are a completely different font.

Focus on the 2 for example. Dozers 2, 7 & 1 appear to be a more modern font. Im only making an observation. Maybe more serial numbers need to be looked at from this era.

 

[Drache]

Re: old no-name pistol

Thanks for the link. I see the serial numbers are stamped almost everywhere but something I noticed that the numbers are a completely different font.


Focus on the 2 for example. Dozers 2, 7 & 1 appear to be a more modern font. Im only making an observation. Maybe more serial numbers need to be looked at from this era.

You can't compare to the 17212 because that number is not original, the 1257 is the original number and the 17212 was stamped at a later date. (Read above on my "theories" on why there are two different serial numbers on this gun).

There were only 3700 G&G pistols made.

 

[l.cutler]

Re: old no-name pistol

There was never a Colt Navy in .44 caliber. The Navy designation actually indicated the caliber, .36, not the revolvers actual useage. Any .36 caliber revolver was Navy caliber. The name originated because of the naval scene engraved on the cylinder. The Cavalry used a great number of Colt Navies. The Navy never used that many revolvers. The Confederates used the same caliber revolvers as the Union, usually the very same revolvers. Mostly Colt and Remington, but also Whitney, Manhattan and many others. Actual Confederate manufactured revolvers were never a large part of their armament.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: old no-name pistol

Thanks for the link. I see the serial numbers are stamped almost everywhere but something I noticed that the numbers are a completely different font.


Focus on the 2 for example. Dozers 2, 7 & 1 appear to be a more modern font. Im only making an observation. Maybe more serial numbers need to be looked at from this era.

You can't compare to the 17212 because that number is not original, the 1257 is the original number and the 17212 was stamped at a later date. (Read above on my "theories" on why there are two different serial numbers on this gun).

There were only 3700 G&G pistols made.

How much later? Even the 1257 looks like a different font, but not as obviously modern as the 17212. Could comparing fonts with known authentic pieces be of any help here?