Spanish trail monuments in the Cabollos

[whiskeyrat]

So, been doing some research into a system of specific trail markers, monuments, stone carvings, etc, that the Spanish would use to mark trails into and out of their mines and treasure vaults.
Reportedly, this was a system controlled by the King of Spain that required all mines and storage vaults to be so marked, so that they could be found in the future and/or be inspected by his tax collectors to make sure he was getting his kings fifth.
Usually beginning at a camp along a stream or river, and then leading into the mountain ranges to their mines and treasure storage rooms.
Has anyone found any old Spanish trail monuments, markers etc in the Caballos?
Or did Waldo blow them all up and destroy them? Or where there never any in this range?
What are your thoughts, would be very interested to hear them?

TM2: seems maybe some of the "map rocks" you have discussed in the recent past that are down in the Organ mountains might fit into this

thanks for any input or suggestions
wr

 

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[gollum]

Hey Whiskeyrat,

Do you have any documented evidence that The King of Spain had any control over what monuments and markers were used? I have every Royal Cedula and Decree Regarding mining. Nowhere do they mention anything about making symbols and markers.

Mike

 

[Rawhide]

The caballos are well traveled and folks have mine claims and some of it is BLM too. You would have to look at some of the older maps before the Gadson purchase to answer your question if the Spanish was there. There are several treasure finds in the area that would lead me to say yes. Since the Organ Mountains is the first thing as I leave my front door, I would say there is Spanish trails there also.

As mike pointed out, you would want records. I remember some records being kept up Sante Fe way. But again the Kings fifth and all is conjecture. I studied some of art of the time, which showed some of the torture that was use by the Spanish to get the work done. There is ome well documented expeditions like the Dominguez–Escalante Expedition was conducted in 1776. But that was north of the Caballos. I still would say yes to Spanish presence there.

I have also noted some older trail signs maybe Mayan, Olmec, Im not knowledgeable enough to say. While gold, silver, and all the other metals possibly used by the Toltec was pit mined for ceremony. I suggest some places to be sacred places which the Spanish hit or miss for some reason. Native Americans also had their own way to mark and use areas. The French, the Jesuit, outlaws, Pancho Villa, KGC, Franciscan Priest, all may have had a hand into the trails you are finding.

Now while some symbols do seem to represent direction, distance, or instruction. The person who put them there is the only one who knows what they really mean. Without a map, waybill, or knowledge of a treasure, your just out for a good healthy walk.

Artifacts can be found, gold and silver can be found, signs can be found. Finding a cache or vault is almost impossible. But some have been found. As with silver bars in the river of the area. Old mines are everywhere, some hundreds of years old. Stay out of them. Search the tailings and camps, but the mines are too dangerous to be messing with. You are restricted to exactly what you can hunt. Again some places are claimed.

I hope this helped a bit. There is plenty to be found on this site about Spanish Trails. Good Luck.

 

[sdcfia]

Hey Whiskeyrat,

Do you have any documented evidence that The King of Spain had any control over what monuments and markers were used? I have every Royal Cedula and Decree Regarding mining. Nowhere do they mention anything about making symbols and markers.

Mike

That's correct. The King did not own the mines - he expected his share as payment from the mining contractors in exchange for granting them permission to explore, locate, equip and operate mines where they wished at their own expense. The miners were responsible for paying the Crown's percentage to the Crown's representatives in Mexico. Much of the Crown's share was estimated based on mercury purchases and credits, which was also closely controlled by the Crown in Mexico and necessary in the miners' recovery processes. The overwhelming majority of mining took place in Mexico, but there were a few - very few - operations by Spanish contractors (who owned the mines) in today's North America.

It's totally ridiculous to believe that the mining contractors would be allowed to leave the Crown's portion of the mining operation hidden somewhere in the wilderness, requiring the Crown's representatives to stage an expensive expedition of their own in order to attempt to go find their proceeds from the mine. No - the Crown's share was paid to the Crown's representative in Mexico. Any "monumented trails" were created by the mining contractors for their own use using their own methods. There is no such thing as a standard "King's Code", ala the Kenworthy books. That's treasure magazine rubbish.

 

[whiskeyrat]

Hey Whiskeyrat,

Do you have any documented evidence that The King of Spain had any control over what monuments and markers were used? I have every Royal Cedula and Decree Regarding mining. Nowhere do they mention anything about making symbols and markers.

Mike

Mike,
No I dont personally have any evidence, thats kinda why I post on here to get opinions as to the validity of what I have read. I am relatively new to the this sport of gold/treasure hunting and just trying to learn as much as possible.
I learn what i can, run stuff by others more knowledgable such as your self and others on this site, then try to make decisions that seem to be correct to me. Always subject to change as I learn more.
The king requiring certain markers etc, does not seem to far outlandish to me, much like our own government requires us to mark the corners of our claims in certain ways, and file papers with descriptions and locations of corner markers.
wr

 

[whiskeyrat]

That's correct. The King did not own the mines - he expected his share as payment from the mining contractors in exchange for granting them permission to explore, locate, equip and operate mines where they wished at their own expense. The miners were responsible for paying the Crown's percentage to the Crown's representatives in Mexico. Much of the Crown's share was estimated based on mercury purchases and credits, which was also closely controlled by the Crown in Mexico and necessary in the miners' recovery processes. The overwhelming majority of mining took place in Mexico, but there were a few - very few - operations by Spanish contractors (who owned the mines) in today's North America.

It's totally ridiculous to believe that the mining contractors would be allowed to leave the Crown's portion of the mining operation hidden somewhere in the wilderness, requiring the Crown's representatives to stage an expensive expedition of their own in order to attempt to go find their proceeds from the mine. No - the Crown's share was paid to the Crown's representative in Mexico. Any "monumented trails" were created by the mining contractors for their own use using their own methods. There is no such thing as a standard "King's Code", ala the Kenworthy books. That's treasure magazine rubbish.

sdc,
agreed, the king would not allow his share to be stashed for him to have to retrieve, similar to the IRS coming after us citizens if they think we didnt give them enough. again, not such a far stretch in my mind.
The pictures in the Knworthy books seem to have a similar trend to them. Someone went to a lot of effort to carve those monuments and at least in the books pictures they appear to have a common theme to them.
Doesnt seem like miners who knew the mountains well and could find their claim again would go to the trouble of carving monuments or trail markers at all.
If there was an orgainized system, for some larger purpose than just the miners own use, and a person could begin to decipher it, it could go a long way to narrowing down some search areas.
Basing the tax on the amount of mercury used is an interesting method of taxation.

I guess i was orginally asking if anyone on this site has actually seen those types of monuments in the caballos.
wr

 

[gollum]

That's correct. The King did not own the mines - he expected his share as payment from the mining contractors in exchange for granting them permission to explore, locate, equip and operate mines where they wished at their own expense. The miners were responsible for paying the Crown's percentage to the Crown's representatives in Mexico. Much of the Crown's share was estimated based on mercury purchases and credits, which was also closely controlled by the Crown in Mexico and necessary in the miners' recovery processes. The overwhelming majority of mining took place in Mexico, but there were a few - very few - operations by Spanish contractors (who owned the mines) in today's North America.

It's totally ridiculous to believe that the mining contractors would be allowed to leave the Crown's portion of the mining operation hidden somewhere in the wilderness, requiring the Crown's representatives to stage an expensive expedition of their own in order to attempt to go find their proceeds from the mine. No - the Crown's share was paid to the Crown's representative in Mexico. Any "monumented trails" were created by the mining contractors for their own use using their own methods. There is no such thing as a standard "King's Code", ala the Kenworthy books. That's treasure magazine rubbish.

SDCFIA,

Occasionally I like to play Devil's Advocate. HAHAHA

You call it "Treasure Magazine Rubbish", but that is not necessarily so. Kenworthy spent a small fortune bribing/donating to archivists and docents around the world. He got a crap-ton of copies of documents. I have a good friend that was very close with Chuck. When he died, Kenworthy told him that he was going to get his collection of documents. Kenworthy's Son grabbed the documents, and as far as I know, he still has them. I know for a fact that they exist. My good friend has seen them. He couldn't translate anything, but he saw the symbols and markers.

I think the truth may be somewhere in between. People working for the King would have wanted to be able to refind lost mines. I think there were most likely some standard symbols and monuments, but there were probably many more that were individual to the mine engineers.

One thing you are absolutely correct about is that whatever the "King's Share" was for a particular mine, that was not paid until the ore/dore were taken to a mint (Mexico City). It was refined, and turned into coins/bars/whatever, and the King's Share was taken out after refining. A person was allowed to trade and buy goods and services with ore/dore ONLY when in the field. Once you got to town, you could only trade with refined coins/bars.

It is not ridiculous to think that an operation would be hidden in the wilderness. There was no infrastructure to operate a mine year round in the far North. It is well known that miners would caravan up from Mexico in the late Summer/early fall, as things started cooling down. They would find a good water source (as it takes a lot of water to process ore), and set up a camp. They stayed until late Spring, when it started to heat up and the water sources started drying up. Then, they would take apart the arrastra, the smelting oven, and seal the mine entrance. They would then head back down to Mexico until late Summer, and start the whole thing over again. Another reason they couldn't stay up here for any serious length of time were Indian Depredations. If you stayed somewhere too long, and the wrong Indian saw that, your camp would likely be attacked and murdered.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

sdc,
agreed, the king would not allow his share to be stashed for him to have to retrieve, similar to the IRS coming after us citizens if they think we didnt give them enough. again, not such a far stretch in my mind.
The pictures in the Knworthy books seem to have a similar trend to them. Someone went to a lot of effort to carve those monuments and at least in the books pictures they appear to have a common theme to them.
Doesnt seem like miners who knew the mountains well and could find their claim again would go to the trouble of carving monuments or trail markers at all.
If there was an orgainized system, for some larger purpose than just the miners own use, and a person could begin to decipher it, it could go a long way to narrowing down some search areas.
Basing the tax on the amount of mercury used is an interesting method of taxation.

I guess i was orginally asking if anyone on this site has actually seen those types of monuments in the caballos.
wr

What gollum noted in Post #7 is true - Spanish/Mexican miners seldom remained on-site full time in remote areas and would conceal their operations as best they could before returning home to Mexico for the off-season. Having explored, located and operated their mines, there was little reason to mark much of a trail back to the spot for next year's mining season, because, as you say - they obviously knew the way. A couple of "reminder-signs" near the hidden operation, if needed, was probably sufficient. And remember, these miners were independent contractors - they ran their own gigs and if they needed to create signs near their mines, they certainly would dream up their own private code, not use some sort of standard symbols.

Signs and symbols in the Caballos? Yeah, there probably are all sorts of things in there - nearly all from the modern era, I'd say. Kenworthy? My gut says he had some sort of hidden agenda with his treasure sign books.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi SDC, don't forget that salt was also used to calculate taxes. Origional Patio process.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

also salt rat, also salt.

 

[Not Peralta]

Just an Opinion, about Spanish markers in the caballo's, there are plenty that were put there by past and modern so called want to be Treasure Hunters and Scammers, the Spanish were not that organized or smart, plus,they had no reason to try and remember were they had been. NP

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

I agree NP, after all when you have been living and working in one place for months, you are hardly likely to forget it.

 

[whiskeyrat]

I agree NP, after all when you have been living and working in one place for months, you are hardly likely to forget it.

NP and RDT3,
a couple things I consider. The monuments Kenworthy shows photos of are huge carved monuments on entire cliffsides, and pickup sized boulders placed on top of volley ball size rocks to create a gap underneath.
Doesnt seem like something a modern scammer would put the effort into doing.
Also, if he is correct, they did not do it because they could not find their way. The tax man needed to find his way. The kings men needed to find their way.
The government needed a way to control and tax the situation and get their share.
Just like today, I dont need corner markers to find my claim in New Mexico. I dont need a map with the corners marked. But the government insists on it, so they can charge me their fees for using "their" land.
Its not about the miners finding their own mines. Its about government control so the king can get his share. Exactly like now, Obama wants his share so I have to pile rocks on the corners, or put in a plastic pipe on the corners and send the BLM a map and pay a fee every year.
Not so much different.
But anyway, the intent of this original thread was to try to find out if anyone has seen these types of markers in the Caballos or maybe the Organs. From the responses i must conclude no one has seen any, dont believe they exist, or just want to keep them secret.
I am surprised tm2 has not weighed in on this issue. Maybe he is having too much fun on a boat somewhere.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi whisky rat. Excellent response, yes the claim is registered and accurately surveyed,but not for revenue purposes, But for claim protection.

In the old days the gov't used a salt tax to pre-collect it's dues, i.e. salt was used in the old original Patio process, reduction to the chlorides. no salt no processing. As a result all salt bodies belonged to the gov't.

Later the mercury process was developed, which was more efficient and quicker. As a result the natural salt deposits fell off in popularity and the mercury mines were then declared as belonging to the Kings. Yes, there were illegal mercury mines, in fact it was big business. The mine owners would pay off the Royal Inspectors

Side note, The use of animals in the mercury patio process was outlawed, since the constant treading of the animals in the mercury rich compound tended to rot their hooves, they were more valuable transporing the end result to Mexico City. The constant necessity of agitating the Mercury rich solutions was left up to the Indians tromping in the solution, cheaper. and more easily replaced.

 

[whiskeyrat]

Hi whisky rat. Excellent response, yes the claim is registered and accurately surveyed,but not for revenue purposes, But for claim protection.

In the old days the gov't used a salt tax to pre-collect it's dues, i.e. salt was used in the old original Patio process, reduction to the chlorides. no salt no processing. As a result all salt bodies belonged to the gov't.

Later the mercury process was developed, which was more efficient and quicker. As a result the natural salt deposits fell off in popularity and the mercury mines were then declared as belonging to the Kings. Yes, there were illegal mercury mines, in fact it was big business. The mine owners would pay off the Royal Inspectors

Side note, The use of animals in the mercury patio process was outlawed, since the constant treading of the animals in the mercury rich compound tended to rot their hooves, they were more valuable transporing the end result to Mexico City. The constant necessity of agitating the Mercury rich solutions was left up to the Indians tromping in the solution, cheaper. and more easily replaced.

thanks for this reply.
i was reminded to look on the positive side of the registration fee, for claim protection. that can be valuable and from my experience most people respect others claims

 

[Dr. Syn]

I think Mike hit it. If it was a party of an organization, they would use similar markers, that way other members of the party or a different party could return later and find the darn place. If it was just old Poncho out there, sure he probably would do the same, so he could find his way back. But he would not be spending days/weeks/months building markers, he was up there to dig gold. His would be just enough to refresh his memory and lead him to his place. If he made multiple trips eventually he wouldn't need said markers, and he would either destroy them or forget about them and Mother Nature would take care of it.

And as for the King, I bet he thought the miners would be 100% honest with what they were digging. NOT! Written down or not, I'm sure he had to have some way of checking up on his little diggers. Making sure they weren't slipping a little off to the side, processed with illegal Mercury from someone else's mine.

So there had to be a way that his folks could find said mines to check up on them. Just like today, they had to have some type of mapping/markers that the revenuers could follow to do their checking. And it leads me to believe there had to be a standardized set of markers of some type that any of the King's boys could follow to find said locations.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ya mean he couldn't trust his loyal subjects ? Bribery was a form of life to the Spanish, then and now. They look upon it as a form of fine or extra charges for many things.

It was similar to the old Thieves market when I was in OLD Peking, China - 45 47. Where the habit of bargaining is so ingrained as part of the daily routine that if you offered a flat sum or gave up too esily they would often cancel the trade.

 

[whiskeyrat]

RDT3
I would love to meet you someday. maybe in the afterlife we will see each other.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Whisky rat: grscias

 

[whiskeyrat]

Whisky rat: grscias

RDT3 and NP:
you have lived a life that most men envy. I have lived a life more free and adventurous than most, but now i arrive at a time i can be really totally free, no job, no daily obligations, and persue adventure as you both have for many years.
the next 5, 10, 15 years (however long the body holds out) will find me in the mountains persueing the treasure, but mostly the adventure and feeling alive. If i ever find a gold bar (which i do intend to) it will be a bonus. But i will enjoy every step up the mountain free and feeling truely alive. I have a whitetail mount in my living room that my grandfather killed in 1919, 500 miles from home. I often think, wow, how adventurous he was to traval 500 miles in those times (dirt roads with model t cars)to persue a whitetail deer, and he got his trophy. Each time i leave for the mountains, i get a little bit of that feeling and feel connnected to him. I think you both know that feeling.