Strange Penny?

[rayrayvegas]

Going thru my box of go thru finds I came across this penny, I almost dismissed it until I grouped it with the other penny finds, I have no idea when or where I found it for I always add up all my clad change at the end of the month. Definetly not toy money, not magnetic, size of a nickel, very very detailed, matches all markings on a penny exactly, even the small Lincoln can be seen in the monument as the designers initials. I am stumped? Has anyone ever came across this before.

 

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[Erik in NJ]

Since Argentium has two of these maybe he can check to see if they are exactly the same size (diameter) --if so, I would tend to think they were not handmade. Is it possible that there is a novelty machine that does this? "Turn Your Pennies into Nickels!" or something. Interesting that someone has a nickel the size of a quarter too. I guessing it's done with repeated softer strikes with a mallet--same basic principle by which a coin ring is made.

 

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[Argentium]

l.cutler , I like your theory - what kind of melting point does zinc have ? I think this would account for the overall expanded size
of the details too .

 

[Erik in NJ]

l.cutler , I like your theory - what kind of melting point does zinc have ? I think this would account for the overall expanded size
of the details too .

It doesn't however explain the folded edge--I think this would happen with the hammering though.

 

[Argentium]

Erik , I think if heat is the cause of the expansion - the top and bottom surfaces would reach the "expansion temps " and would
move before the center of the mass would -!( I must quickly insert here - that I'm no physicist) - I am enough of a metalworker
(silversmith/jeweler) to be fairly certain that no kind of mallot or hammer would proportionately enlarge the design/devices on these
coins - without some fairly obvious compression damage .

 

[rayrayvegas]

I am also coming to the conclusion that if these were somehow made as novelties there would be a lot out in circulation.I.e. a lot also being found. Just not the select few that have turned up here or the few reports posted online. I am not saying I have found a rare or valuable coin but I do think these are very unique coins and if held in hand you would also see there is no tampering as hammering or heating on this coin, other than the proportiontly expansion as stated before this is a U.S. minted penny. I really hope we can atleast get to a conclusion that we all agree upon. I enjoy and am hoping for more theories. Thanks again for everyones interest on this post.

 

[Erik in NJ]

It seems like there are several of them in circulation...if they are not made by a machine (or wooden mallet) then there must be instructions on the Internet for how to do it. If anyone is good with Google I'm sure you can find instructions for how this is done. The heat doesn't explain the folded edge tho.

If you can measure your two samples with your calipers -- are they exactly the same size?? If they are exact, it was done by machine.

 

[rayrayvegas]

It seems like there are several of them in circulation...if they are not made by a machine (or wooden mallet) then there must be instructions on the Internet for how to do it. If anyone is good with Google I'm sure you can find instructions for how this is done. The heat doesn't explain the folded edge tho.

If you can measure your two samples with your calipers -- are they exactly the same size?? If they are exact, it was done by machine.

Good point Eric.

 

[Argentium]

Erik , I think the heat theory does explain the edges - it appears that the expansion is happening on the surfaces of the coin - creating
exactly what we are seeing when we look at these edge on - I'm going with the heat theory until I see somebody put up an idea that
satisfies me more . This suggests to me that regular minted zincolns are being put in a kiln or or an oven , the top and bottom surfaces
of the coin are heating more rapidly than the middle of the coin - hence expanding more than the middle .

 

[Erik in NJ]

Erik , I think the heat theory does explain the edges - it appears that the expansion is happening on the surfaces of the coin - creating
exactly what we are seeing when we look at these edge on - I'm going with the heat theory until I see somebody put up an idea that
satisfies me more . This suggests to me that regular minted zincolns are being put in a kiln or or an oven , the top and bottom surfaces
of the coin are heating more rapidly than the middle of the coin - hence expanding more than the middle .

But wouldn't the metal shrink back to normal size when it cooled, leaved the stretched partially hollow copper skin? I would think that the copper skin would then cave in. It sounds like these coins are pretty solid, no? Has anyone measured the thickness compared to a regular cent? Also are the diameters identical on the two coins you have?

 

[mariposagold]

Erik, I'm pretty sure I got them in normal circulation - I tend to ignore zincolns in the field ( my MXT puts up the word zinc on the screen )
I've had them for enough years that I'm not really clear on how /where I obtained them (I may have dug one of them ,just not sure )

ARgentium, Y've been doing this longer than I, but recently, I stopped ignoring Zinc in a place that potentially holds old coins. My 1907 IH came up Zinc on my MXT. And I've Heard certain gold coins have shown up as zinc on the VDI of an MXT. Also, recently, when hunting with a friend, I skipped a few Zincs that turned up he dug them and got Wheaties. I hate is when I pass up good stuff.

Just my thought.

HH

 

[rayrayvegas]

Erik , I think the heat theory does explain the edges - it appears that the expansion is happening on the surfaces of the coin - creating
exactly what we are seeing when we look at these edge on - I'm going with the heat theory until I see somebody put up an idea that
satisfies me more . This suggests to me that regular minted zincolns are being put in a kiln or or an oven , the top and bottom surfaces
of the coin are heating more rapidly than the middle of the coin - hence expanding more than the middle .

I will also agree with this theory since it is backed up with metallurgy experience. I dont have the means to prove this way, I sure hope someone out there who does can test and prove this method.

 

[Argentium]

mariposagold , You are correct - I do this at the risk of missing gold and Indians and wheaties - When I hunt older locations I tend to
dig all - I do get a bit lazy in newer parks if they are loaded with zincolns .

 

[Digger2]

The inner core (zinc) melts at approx 787F and the outer core melts at 19??F(a tad under 2000F) to expand the zinc and and get the outer core to expand proportionally (and without distortion) would be quite a trick.

This is one heck of an interesting thread. My guess (at this point and subject to change) is the coin is manufactured by the ones making the plastic money used by educators. If they are the ones making them, I tend to subscribe to the (guess) they are making them for illusions to be used in magic tricks.

Why and how these things are made I sure as heck would like to know!

Roy

 

[Erik in NJ]

Please provide accurate measurements and weights guys so we can do some rudimentary analysis. Thanks.

 

[Argentium]

Digger2 , I hadn't thought about the cooling ideas you brought up - Also neither of my strange zincolns has copper wash (plate ) on
it .
Erik, both of mine are the same diameter .

 

[bryanleemc]

Along with Digger2's post. Wondering if it is manufactured for a purpose. Found this school pdf about an enlarged penny...

"Materials: Enlarged penny, nickel, and dime with labeled name. (Number of children in class) snack size bags with one penny, nickel and dime in each Large piece of paper for teacher’s use. Worksheet three" Page two...

http://tiger.towson.edu/~lgrey2/Lesson Plan 1- FINAL.pdf

 

[mariposagold]

mariposagold , You are correct - I do this at the risk of missing gold and Indians and wheaties - When I hunt older locations I tend to
dig all - I do get a bit lazy in newer parks if they are loaded with zincolns .

Agreed, it's difficult to dig zinc at tot lots knowing full well that they will be just Zincolns. I'm working vacant lots primarily right now because they are so plentiful in this area. Dug a 1920 Buff, (My first) too ugly to post, and a 191? Wheatie (Bathing). These sites are so littered with scrap metal, they really test your skills. Digging everything is a full-time job, but the only way to eliminating the debris. What I need is a giant magnet. LOL.

HH

MariposaGold

 

[huntsman53]

I am going to digress on my earlier statements about the O.P.'s coin which applies to the other coins as well and say I now believe that they were man made! Mike Diamond (whom I know and have traded error coins with in the past) who posted the information on CoinTalk, stating that the coins were hammered between two pieces of thick leather, was on to something (maybe not right on but close). If you heat the coins in some manner to which they become slightly malleable, then quickly place them in a vice between two pieces of leather and crank the vice down on the coin, then I believe everything that we can see on the coins could be achieved. I think a hammer is a poor choice to try this as you have to make perfect strikes, otherwise you distort the details on the coin one way or another or even have multiple distortions. The pressure exhibited must be precise to obtain a perfectly squeezed coin that shows no distortions or damage. I guess the first key in determining whether they are Mint errors or man made errors, is the missing Copper Plating. Most Lincoln Memorial Cents struck on Planchets that missed the Copper Plating process, have a specific look and the surfaces on the coins are smooth. This does not appear to be the case with the O.P.'s coin and the other coins which appear to have somewhat grainy surfaces on the Obverse and Reverse. This indicates first that the Copper Plating was removed with acid and also that the coins picked up some of the grain from the leather during the squeezing in the vice.


Frank

 

[Erik in NJ]

Hi Frank,

Good analysis, however, the only thing would be that if they were handmade they would almost certainly have differing diameters. Argentium says his two coins are exactly the same size, though my request for precise measurements and weights hasn't been done yet so it's a bit difficult to verify with the OP's coin. Are all of the coins missing the copper wash? I wonder if anyone has found one made out of a copper cent or are they all zinc? I'm not sure how easy it is to remove copper plating with acid. Any ideas? I would tend to think this is any easy process or why would they be put back into circulation?

I still think the key to the mystery is described in detail somewhere on the internet and that it's an easy process, otherwise it would seem that they are being made by a novelty machine. It would seem that it would be illegal for a company to produce these bigger cents from scratch, but I guess it's legal to take existing cents and enlarge them using some sort of machine or technique.

I am going to digress on my earlier statements about the O.P.'s coin which applies to the other coins as well and say I now believe that they were man made! Mike Diamond (whom I know and have traded error coins with in the past) who posted the information on CoinTalk, stating that the coins were hammered between two pieces of thick leather, was on to something (maybe not right on but close). If you heat the coins in some manner to which they become slightly malleable, then quickly place them in a vice between two pieces of leather and crank the vice down on the coin, then I believe everything that we can see on the coins could be achieved. I think a hammer is a poor choice to try this as you have to make perfect strikes, otherwise you distort the details on the coin one way or another or even have multiple distortions. The pressure exhibited must be precise to obtain a perfectly squeezed coin that shows no distortions or damage. I guess the first key in determining whether they are Mint errors or man made errors, is the missing Copper Plating. Most Lincoln Memorial Cents struck on Planchets that missed the Copper Plating process, have a specific look and the surfaces on the coins are smooth. This does not appear to be the case with the O.P.'s coin and the other coins which appear to have somewhat grainy surfaces on the Obverse and Reverse. This indicates first that the Copper Plating was removed with acid and also that the coins picked up some of the grain from the leather during the squeezing in the vice.


Frank

 

[huntsman53]

Hi Frank,

Good analysis, however, the only thing would be that if they were handmade they would almost certainly have differing diameters. Argentium says his two coins are exactly the same size, though my request for precise measurements and weights hasn't been done yet so it's a bit difficult to verify with the OP's coin. Are all of the coins missing the copper wash? I wonder if anyone has found one made out of a copper cent or are they all zinc? I'm not sure how easy it is to remove copper plating with acid. Any ideas? I would tend to think this is any easy process or why would they be put back into circulation?

I still think the key to the mystery is described in detail somewhere on the internet and that it's an easy process, otherwise it would seem that they are being made by a novelty machine. It would seem that it would be illegal for a company to produce these bigger cents from scratch, but I guess it's legal to take existing cents and enlarge them using some sort of machine or technique.

Maybe some of the folks that are cranking out these faked error coins are actually using a micrometer. Besides, due to the fairly small size of a Cent, some differences would be fairly unnoticeable without the use of a micro-micrometer. No, not all coins done this way are missing the Copper plating. The many folks that have made these coins usually to make money, have pretty much tried this on every denomination including pre-1959 Copper cents. They continue to do so as along as they can continue to fool folks.

I am sure that the information is out there on how to do this to a coin. However, I have no reason to look for it as I buy, sell and collect error and variety coins and other coins as well and would not try this or even sell one of these coins to one of my customers! When it comes to U.S. coinage, you can pretty much do what you want to them as long as you don't try to melt down the Copper cents and try to sell them to a Recycler. I wonder why the U.S. Treasury never made a similar designation for Silver U.S. coinage. It is hard to fathom how many Semi-Key and Key Date Silver coins have been destroyed during the Silver and Gold craze plus common date coins are now less available and should be more rare but no one has any numbers on how many of any of the coins of specific Dates and Mints are still out there.


Frank