Strange Penny?

[rayrayvegas]

Going thru my box of go thru finds I came across this penny, I almost dismissed it until I grouped it with the other penny finds, I have no idea when or where I found it for I always add up all my clad change at the end of the month. Definetly not toy money, not magnetic, size of a nickel, very very detailed, matches all markings on a penny exactly, even the small Lincoln can be seen in the monument as the designers initials. I am stumped? Has anyone ever came across this before.

 

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[DialTForTreasure]

I don't know much about the minting processes, so I'm just throwing out an idea here...

If I'm reading the posts correctly, then people have been suggesting these coins missed the copper after being struck.

I may be misunderstanding peoples description of "what if", but none sound like "what if someone striking nickels used the Lincoln penny stamp".

Seems to me, if anyone tried to alter a coin after it was struck, it would affect and distort the details in ways besides the size. Detail images might be flattened for instance.

Bearing these ideas in mind, it's possible someone who was bored did a reverse die of a penny, created their own enlarged image stamp, and made their own coins.

Legality or not is pretty much irrelevant. So is sensibility. People who are bored do stuff just to see if they can.

 

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[bush13st_beav3r]

Idk bout the heat thing...in the pics it doesn't look any thinner than a regular penny.... If heat was used to permanently expand the penny, it would lose depth.. or lose metal elsewhere... Heating and stretching metal doesn't add metal in the process...
the leather/vice theory could hold water, but that sounds a little iffy to me as well....but I am no expert by any means and could be WAYYYY off...

I truly hope someone solves this mystery ...and when we find out how, or who what and WHY...if it is in fact a manmade process, I'd love to see a video of it being done, just for the "seeing is believing" factor..

GL&HH all

-beav3r

 

[rayrayvegas]

Frank , both of mine have perfect rims too - however if you look at them edge on, they look squished -like a U shaped trench between the
outer edges (obverse /reverse ) and yes , very definitely ,the Lincoln profile is larger as well - no doubt about it !!!

RayRay - I just put a millimeter gauge on both of mine - they are about 1.7 mm larger than a standard zincoln.
(diameter) and they weigh just a hair under 2.5 grams .

Argentium in a earlier post did give measurements and weight on these, I am also in the process of trying to find someone to get the same done with mine also.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Good point bushiest_beaver

Try checking YouTube--there might be a video out there already. Can we get a pic of the enlarged cent next to a regular cent from the edge?? If we had those measurements this would be a moot point!

Idk bout the heat thing...in the pics it doesn't look any thinner than a regular penny.... If heat was used to permanently expand the penny, it would lose depth.. or lose metal elsewhere... Heating and stretching metal doesn't add metal in the process...
the leather/vice theory could hold water, but that sounds a little iffy to me as well....but I am no expert by any means and could be WAYYYY off...

I truly hope someone solves this mystery ...and when we find out how, or who what and WHY...if it is in fact a manmade process, I'd love to see a video of it being done, just for the "seeing is believing" factor..

GL&HH all

-beav3r

 

[Erik in NJ]

Hi Frank - lots of good info here. So you believe that these are meant to be sold as error coins? I wonder after the the supposed effort they went through to enlarge the cent, that it ended up back in circulation.

I didn't know that you weren't allowed to hoard copper cents and sell them to a recycler as a sort of arbitrage. Is this true? There's an economic theory (forget the name) that when two monetary units are in circulation with the same face value, but one is intrinsically worth more, that that one will eventually be removed from circulation (by speculators I guess). I have wondered why the copper cents have been in circulation for so long and still are. I wonder how long it too the IH cents to be removed from circulation.

Yes, it's a shame that any silver coins have been melted for scrap--they are pieces of history...there should have been a law making this illegal.

Maybe some of the folks that are cranking out these faked error coins are actually using a micrometer. Besides, due to the fairly small size of a Cent, some differences would be fairly unnoticeable without the use of a micro-micrometer. No, not all coins done this way are missing the Copper plating. The many folks that have made these coins usually to make money, have pretty much tried this on every denomination including pre-1959 Copper cents. They continue to do so as along as they can continue to fool folks.

I am sure that the information is out there on how to do this to a coin. However, I have no reason to look for it as I buy, sell and collect error and variety coins and other coins as well and would not try this or even sell one of these coins to one of my customers! When it comes to U.S. coinage, you can pretty much do what you want to them as long as you don't try to melt down the Copper cents and try to sell them to a Recycler. I wonder why the U.S. Treasury never made a similar designation for Silver U.S. coinage. It is hard to fathom how many Semi-Key and Key Date Silver coins have been destroyed during the Silver and Gold craze plus common date coins are now less available and should be more rare but no one has any numbers on how many of any of the coins of specific Dates and Mints are still out there.


Frank

 

[rayrayvegas]

Rim view with normal penny.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Great pic Ray! Wow the rim isn't really folded over and it's different than what I thought as the two ridges don't start at the faces of the coin--the odd thing is that is looks to be about the SAME thickness as a regular cent!

 

[l.cutler]

I am certainly no metallurgist and can't completely explain it, but I have done this numerous times and it comes out exactly like the coin here right down to the odd shaped edge. It is tricky getting just the right temperature, and would certainly be easier with something like a forge or kiln. I believe what is happening is the zinc melts inside the copper, and somewhat spreads out with the softened copper holding the shape but stretching out slightly. Just a little too much heat and the whole thing melts. At a certain point you can actually see the zinc color spread across the coin, I think what may be happening is the zinc is bleeding into the softened heated copper coating. Take it for what it is worth, I can't explain the physics but I have done it. With a little bit of experimenting and probably quite a few ruined zinc cents before getting it right, anyone can do it, give it a try.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Interesting...what are you heating the coin with and what is the coin being held on while it's being heated??

I am certainly no metallurgist and can't completely explain it, but I have done this numerous times and it comes out exactly like the coin here right down to the odd shaped edge. It is tricky getting just the right temperature, and would certainly be easier with something like a forge or kiln. I believe what is happening is the zinc melts inside the copper, and somewhat spreads out with the softened copper holding the shape but stretching out slightly. Just a little too much heat and the whole thing melts. At a certain point you can actually see the zinc color spread across the coin, I think what may be happening is the zinc is bleeding into the softened heated copper coating. Take it for what it is worth, I can't explain the physics but I have done it. With a little bit of experimenting and probably quite a few ruined zinc cents before getting it right, anyone can do it, give it a try.

 

[Wildcat1750]

I can't offer any opinion but this is a very interesting thread. Nice find, rayrayvegas!

 

[Argentium]

Hey Ladies and Gentlemen ! We Just now very quietly got the answer we've all been raging for !!!!!!! l.cutler just posted a response
saying that he (assuming gender here ) has done this numerous times - with results that are exactly what RayRay and I have been
talking about - Case Closed i guess , but I have a question as to the temperature needed to cause this phenomenon ? without deforming
the zincoln

 

[Lygore]

I have came across a few that were in fires that were about that size. You might weigh it to see if it's the same weight as a normal penny. It also might be thinner than a normal penny too. Those were the usual differences that I saw on the ones that were in fires and ones that weren't. Other than their diameter, obviously.

 

[Erik in NJ]

I would like to see a video of this!

Hey Ladies and Gentlemen ! We Just now very quietly got the answer we've all been raging for !!!!!!! l.cutler just posted a response
saying that he (assuming gender here ) has done this numerous times - with results that are exactly what RayRay and I have been
talking about - Case Closed i guess , but I have a question as to the temperature needed to cause this phenomenon ? without deforming
the zincoln

 

[rayrayvegas]

thanks!!! And please post us a example for all of us to see, that would be a great and final ending to this post. =)

 

[Argentium]

Erik , I did give the best weights and measures that I could achieve with a manual mm gauge and an Ohaus triple beam gram scale -
the diameters (same for both) are 20.8 mm - the weights are a hair under 2.5 grams (close enough with a manual balance scale to
the standard weight of a zincoln)

 

[Argentium]

huntsman53 - I just cant buy the vise squeeze theory - I don't believe the pressure applied could (or would ) cause all the elements on the
coin to expand proportionately , neither do I believe that it would expand the coin concentrically perfectly . I think the leather would be way too
soft to force any significant expansion anyway . Additionally , just a few posts ago l.cutler provided the answer to this mystery - claims to
have achieved this result numerous times !

 

[huntsman53]

The weight of cents being slightly under 2.5 grams should prove factually that they were struck on Cent Planchets. The observation from viewing one coin on top of another Cent and they both being of the same thickness, is merely an optical illusion as you are not able to see the depth of the coin at it's surfaces (i.e. depth from the Obverse to the Reverse). This depth can only be measured by a micrometer which has blades that will fit inside the rim and not be affected by them. This is the only way you can truly determine if they are the same thickness. You also have to consider that not every cent produced of the same Date or even close Dates have the same depth. This is due to the many Planchet stock rolls (in this case, rolls of Zinc) that are produced and shipped to the Mints for stamping out Planchets which almost always are never the same thickness. Just measure the depth of 10 Lincoln Cents of different Dates that are made from Copper Plated Zinc and you will see what I mean. This has been the history of the Planchet production ever since they have been made!


Frank

 

[huntsman53]

Hi Frank - lots of good info here. So you believe that these are meant to be sold as error coins? I wonder after the the supposed effort they went through to enlarge the cent, that it ended up back in circulation.

I didn't know that you weren't allowed to hoard copper cents and sell them to a recycler as a sort of arbitrage. Is this true? There's an economic theory (forget the name) that when two monetary units are in circulation with the same face value, but one is intrinsically worth more, that that one will eventually be removed from circulation (by speculators I guess). I have wondered why the copper cents have been in circulation for so long and still are. I wonder how long it too the IH cents to be removed from circulation.

Yes, it's a shame that any silver coins have been melted for scrap--they are pieces of history...there should have been a law making this illegal.

Yes, many of these were made in the attempt to make money above and beyond the face value of the coin by duping unsuspecting folks! Others were just made because someone wanted to see if it could be done. Once folks found out that the error coin that they had purchased was in fact a fake, they would just spend it. Or children or grandchildren would steal their parent's or grandparent's coin collections and spend them. Although I am sure that some were stolen by thieves and then spent or sold but they eventually end back in circulation.

I think the Law was enacted 2 years ago when everyone was stealing of salvaging Copper to make ends meet or get extra money. You can do just about anything want to deface Lincoln Cents (cut them, pound them with a hammer, burn them, etc., etc.) but you cannot sell them for their' Copper content or melt them down into Copper bars to be sold as Copper.


Frank

 

[systemrobot]

MAP gas torch or maybe a bee tank?

 

[genlee]

Has any one thought about a counterfeit coin. What I mean is while relic hunting, we sometimes come across coins that were cast in a mold. And the edge makes me think some one tried to cast a penney to see if it could be done.

You see if you press the design of the coin in to what ever mold material you choose, the design actually grows, because you could never make a coin exactly the same size with out making a die.

So in fact you would end up with a coin slightly larger and yet show all the detail of the original coin provided the mold was exact.

Now this is just a theory of mine and I keep seeing people refer to zinc in this coin.

Please expound on this theory.


John