Superstition People, Places, & Things.

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AU, I was waiting for that post :laughing7: I learned that in Baja while visiting the old ones for a dance with the flickering firelight in my still nidden valley. Even the archaeologists don't know of it's existance.


.On.webp
 

I have come close to that. Moved the bugs and green plant life aside to drink. With bugs and plant life , it may look ugly, but it is save to drink. Crystal clear is usally not unless it is flowing water. Alkali springs killed many in the old west.
 

Would love to look at the 2 signatures with a 10 power loop. See if the minor breaks are at the same spots.
 

It is great to see you back Hal.
You have definitely been missed!
 

I have been spending time with T.E. Glover's newest book and honestly can't put it down. I know that it is a little late in the conversation but, the Transmitting Draft on Accountable Warrant (page 267) is beyond fascinating. Anyway, if it is a forgery, I think that the artist was/is nothing less than brilliant. One detail that seems to be a red flag for me is the signature of James Gilfillan, Treasurer of the United States (1 July, 1877 - 31 March, 1883) who served under three Presidents; Hayes, Garfield, and Author.


Gilfillan's signature on the document is almost identical to that found on US currency from the period with two minor exceptions. The J is slightly more angled and the G has a strange starting point that "hooks", for lack of a better word. As if the artist knew that there should be some deviation in a persons signature and compensated for it. Other than these two details, the signatures, when superimposed onto each other are, strangely identical. In spacing, letter positioning, size and curvature of the signature.

That points to a tracing of Gilfillan's signature. Remember, the document is a copy of a copy and the line quality of the original has been degraded or, blurred.



Very interesting Hal, thanks for posting it. And welcome back, it is good to see you posting again.

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

Hi Hal

I hope you are well .

The Gilfillan's signatures are identical . The differences are a matter of pen .
 

My problem with the transmitting warrant is I never could find the other half of the transaction. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just means I tried diligently to find it without success. It should be a relatively easy thing to find the US records of reimbursement. Nada.

The Library of Congress has all the Treasury records from the time period. There "should be" an off setting record showing the Kansas bank submitted to the US Treasury the paid out warrant for reimbursement. Its been a long time since I looked at those records but as I remember they are quarterly payment records showing each warrant reimbursed. No where did I find a record for that Warrant number being reimbursed from the Treasury to the Kansas bank, or to any other financial institution.

Anyone wanting to double check is welcomed to do so. Stock up on Visine. Until more evidence of authenticity is forthcoming THIS warrant is bogus in my estimation.
 

A close view of the Transmitting Draft will show that the signature was done over the top of a straight edge. The engraved signature on currency is not straight on the bottom. Other angular inconsistencies are expected in authentic signatures. But what do I know? I am not a handwriting expert.....


Gilfillan's signature on the document is almost identical to that found on US currency from the period with two minor exceptions. The J is slightly more angled and the G has a strange starting point that "hooks", for lack of a better word. As if the artist knew that there should be some deviation in a persons signature and compensated for it. Other than these two details, the signatures, when superimposed onto each other are, strangely identical. In spacing, letter positioning, size and curvature of the signature.

That points to a tracing of Gilfillan's signature. Remember, the document is a copy of a copy and the line quality of the original has been degraded or, blurred.


[/QUOTE]
 

Lynda,

Most of us, a number of years ago, came to the conclusion that the Transmitting Draft was a fake. A great deal of research was done into the document. The source, or his source, is questionable.

Take care,

Joe
 

How is that possible?

Hal

I was a fun of the reservoir steel point pen for many years and i know how it works . To write with a reservoir steel point pen is required a some time of training because every pen has its personality , like weight ( thickest-thinnest ) and lenght . Also required a proper angle and position of the pen for the best results . Also the steel point of the reservoir pen is composed from two parts and this because to exist a trench which helps to take air the reservoir and to allow the ink to run smoothly . If you push the reservoir pen more than is accepted for a perfect writing , then the two parts of the pen's steel point move apart with the reservoir to get more air and to allow more ink , and the points ( are two ) twist a little bit with a bad result to scratch the paper and some times to affect the writing style.
Gilfillan lived in period of pen's evolution , a transaction from the dip steel point pen to the reservoir steel point pen . The dip steel pen has the point constructed from only one piece of steel , more robust and with not so much sensibilities .
I believe Gilfillan signed on the suspected document with a reservoir steel point pen and , or the pen was very used or he was not so adapted to this model of pen with the apparent results .
I believe in his signature , the hard is not how to begin it but how to finish it .
 

I don't show the same charactistic lines in my signature, in fact I can hardly recognize the different ones:laughing7: so I have to rely upon the flow and firmness - ink -- ball pens are different. her it depends upon the angle, surface and elevation how I scribble.
 

Even so if you look at the signature with a 10 power loop, you will see minor breaks or jerks from the muscles of the hand when writing. These are in the flow of the letters. Even after years have pasted those small jerks or breaks remain constant. That's from looking at different signatures from the same person. Can't see them great without the 10 power loop.
 

TNet,
Until a thread on the MATCHBOX is created, I will post what I have about the Coarse Gold mine (originally the Grijalva) here. We know that Gus Hirshfeld and Julius Lieberman were invested in this mine howverer, as far as establishing a connecting the to matchbox, I admit that it is premature. Still, seems like a good place to begin.

Here is some background information of the Grijalva Coarse Gold mine. The article titled "NO END OF GOLD" is, IMO, one of the most fascinating that I have come across and I would appreciate your thoughts on it.

Enjoy!



Hal


YESTERDAY'S RECORD

...A. C. Yrigoyen, the locator of the Oro Fino, one of the most promising claims in the newly discovered gold region in the neighborhood of Fools' Canyon, came to town on Monday night. He says that every day the prospects of that region grow brighter. They are continuing to take out great glittering lumps of virgin gold from the original Grijalva mine, and there is apparently no limit to its wealth. The average richness or extent of the ledge has not been even approximately determined yet...
AZR 17 October 1894​
NO END OF GOLD.

The Wonderful Mine at Fool's Canyon.

A Mexican Tells a Startling Story of the Richness of the Late Find on the Hassayampa. The truth of the marvelous wealth of the Grijalva mine on the Hassayampa is coming out by degrees. The wonderful ledge was discovered by accident less than three months ago and its discovery lay among a lot of Mexicans. They were so jealous that they guarded approaches to it and men armed with shotguns stood off inquisitive visitors.

It was only known that the face of the country had been washed away by a June flood and that wealth hidden perhaps for centuries had been brought to the surface and that Fool's canon was likely to become famous. All the surrounding country was immediately located and most of the claims are supposed to be of great value. But about the first and pivotal one the Grijalva claim an air of mystery has hung. Great nuggets of virgin gold have been brought to the city, and the Grijalvaa have received many tempting offers, one of $50,000 for the mine which some said was only a pocket.

The owners remained silent and unsatisfactory, but kept at work, and prospectors in the vicinity kept guessing and locating. So much guessing was done, though, that the fame of Fools canyon spread abroad and newspaper representatives of eastern and European papers residing in Phoenix were importuned for facts concerning the find. They had none to offer. It is true that visitors were by this time admitted to the
claim, but only to a part of it.

Last night Jose Peralta came to town and told a story about the mine which has never been told before. He has been working for the Grijalvas but has quit, but he says that mine at Fools' canyon is the richest mine ever discovered in America, the richest at any rate he has ever seen and he has seen all the big mines on the coast since the first one was discovered by white men. He says that they are working the ore from a four-foot ledge by means of three arrastres and that no ore which does not run $150 a ton is handled. The production is $1,200 a week at an expense of $25. But $150 a ton has really nothing to do with the richness of the ore. Peralta has no idea how rich it is but as an instance of its wealth of gold he relates his experience of a single day. In preparing ore for the arrastra it is necessary to crush it by hand. In the course of crushing sometimes nuggets of gold are thrown out. In one day in this way he discovered nuggets which amounted to more than $200 saying nothing of the rest of the rich ore left for development by the arrastra. There is, Peralta says, no apparent limit to the extent of that wonderful four foot ledge.

A legal contest for the possession of the Grijalva claim is developing. An old prospector named Flacci has been brought to the surface and he says he was the first man on the ground after the Hassayampa flood swept the debris of centuries away. He says that he let Pedro Grijalva, the old man, into the secret and that night Grijalva got him drunk and bought his right for the pitiful sum of $200. He is going to try to find out if that drunken transaction "goes."
AZR 28 October, 1894




...Juan Grijala files proof of labor on the Coarse Gold Mine, Black Rock district....
Arizona Weekly Journal-Miner 20 December, 1899



March 28 - Pedro and Juan Grijalba to Goldberg Bros, deed $100;1/2 of Coarse Gold mine...

Arizona Weekly Jounal Miner 04 Apriil, 1900




BLACK ROCK DISTRICT

L.L. White of the White mine in the Black Hock district is in the city for a short stay. He reports work going on continuously at the White mine, a force of eight men employed in the two tunnels, two shofts daily being worked.
He says a new strike was reported a few days ago at the Grijalva mine about a mile from the Whlte. He did not know the particulars but it is said that considerable ore was taken out that would average $500 per ton.
AZR 4 April, 1903




...William Scott, J. C. Reed and Pedro Gonzales have located some claims near the Grijalva mine, and are taking out some very rich ore from a small stringer in one of the ledges....

AZR 9 February, 1909





hal...it looks like a man named mike adams owned the mine in 1976...its a patented mine so there is a chance him or his family still owns it...if you are looking for an ore sample from the mine for comparison maybe you could track him down.....the mine isn't in fools canyon ..it is a little south of where fools canyon dumps into the hassayampa river
 

Awesome post Hal!
 

Hal

So ,do you say you how the matchbox is possibly related to Peralta instead Waltz ?
 

azdave,

That would be the next step. Unfortunately, even if I were to obtain a sample, I honestly know almost nothing about gold mines and minerals. Someone like yourself would need to examine it and make the comparison. I am not even sure who has possession of the matchbox today however, I will look into this Mike Adams and try to reach out to him. If your database has any contact info or addition information, I would appreciate reading it in a PM if you are willing.

Amazing that you were able to ID the mines owner so quickly.

Nice work azdave.


Hal

no additional contact info on adams...this is a patented mine so it is more difficult to search records on it..if you are not sure what patented means ..it means he owns the land..also water and mineral rights...back then you had to have at least 10 ounce per ton to get a patent..on a regular mining claim you don't own the land or water..just the mineral rights...so basically you are researching property...you have to go to yavapai county recorder and get into the plat maps and you can find out who owns it now.. but their website is acting up right now.....if you can catch the website when it is working search plat maps for township 8 north...range 4 west ..section 2 and possibly 11 ..there is a big mining company that has claims in those sections and they may have bought the patented claims..see pic for location of the claims...in the middle of the pic in white

coarse gold.webp
 

azdave,

That would be the next step. Unfortunately, even if I were to obtain a sample, I honestly know almost nothing about gold mines and minerals. Someone like yourself would need to examine it and make the comparison. I am not even sure who has possession of the matchbox today however, I will look into this Mike Adams and try to reach out to him. If your database has any contact info or addition information, I would appreciate reading it in a PM if you are willing.

Amazing that you were able to ID the mines owner so quickly.

Nice work azdave.


Hal

one more thing..if i remember correctly there used to be some specimens from the coarse gold mine on display at the mineral museum..sadly the governor closed the museum down a while back but someone might know what happened to the specimens...i do know that some were let's say "liberated" for lack of a better word...you might ask terry soloman if he knows anyone that has samples from that mine...
 

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