Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[cw0909]

anyone that has seen this item, do you know its height and width
going by the $bills, im thinking 25inch tall x 20inch @ nail to nail
for christs hands

 

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[cw0909]

gollum, ya say the pieces prob dont go together
but the color of both items are so close in color, like made from same metal

Somehiker and Hal,

I have thought about those items many times over the years. IMHO, I don't believe they are meant to go together. The bottom section has four legs and four arms. Looks like it was meant to hold a pot/urn/mortar (as in mortar and pestle). The Crucifix looks like it was meant to be stood in a small mine shrine.

I don't know any of the backstory of this item, but I always liked the idea that those two things were being taken back to Mexico by the Peralta's/Gonzalez's, and got lost when the Indians Attacked........................


...................................... or ................................................

its fake. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[somehiker]

If you look closely at the picture, you will see that bottom of the cross arms are a good bit higher than the tops of the base. To me, the base would more likely be used for:

View attachment 1273114

or like this without the base:

View attachment 1273115

I believe they were two pieces of many that got bucked off some mules during an N-Deh Massacre of Mexicans.

Mike

I wouldn't say that, Mike. Looks like the arm of the cross on the right hand side is only about 1/4 inch from the top of the lower part.
There also appears to be part of the casting which wraps around the back of the cross, down at the bottom left hand side.
This part may have extended right across to the other side, but looks like it may have broken off. It doesn't make sense to me that that part of the casting would exist for use as either of your examples. But if that is where the attachment point is, it does...as does the rounded bottom of the upper "crucifix" casting. What are the odds of that being the case, if the object was found as scattered parts along the massacre trail ? Or that they would appear to be cast from the same metal, with the same patina ?
So, unless further info and more photos become available, and show something different, I'm gonna stick with the "as found near Tortilla Flat" info.

View attachment Cast Crucifix TF bracket.bmp

 

[Azquester]

search term......spanish colonial indigenous crucifix

https://www.google.ca/search?q=span...nfpr=1&q=spanish+colonial+indigenous+crucifix

Lots to look at and read by using the search term and link, Bill.

They were one of the first places I looked for further information on where something like this could have come from.

Mexicans of mixed blood had their own style in many of the examples discussed and shown.
Often based on a mixture of both Catholic and traditional beliefs and teaching.

Nice Link. None of those fancy Google crosses even closely resemble the thing you posted. You have a one of a kind find. To bad it's no longer with us.
I never bothered with using a search term it was actually just my own personal observation. Not from the guys at MES.

But, To me it just simply looks like a fancy Church door stop.
PEW! bad joke...

 

[Azquester]

I don't know if any of you have thought of this before but it could be an adornment for a Horse bridle, saddle or stirrup's?

Maybe it's one of a set of Jesus spurs so every time you kick your Horse your basically saying:

"Christ Almighty give me some speed them Indians are almost on me!"

 

[captain1965]

Mabe the bottom divice is some sort of bell stand?

 

[captain1965]

Or mirror stand?

Dono

 

[Carl995]

I wouldn't say that, Mike. Looks like the arm of the cross on the right hand side is only about 1/4 inch from the top of the lower part.
There also appears to be part of the casting which wraps around the back of the cross, down at the bottom left hand side.
This part may have extended right across to the other side, but looks like it may have broken off. It doesn't make sense to me that that part of the casting would exist for use as either of your examples. But if that is where the attachment point is, it does...as does the rounded bottom of the upper "crucifix" casting. What are the odds of that being the case, if the object was found as scattered parts along the massacre trail ? Or that they would appear to be cast from the same metal, with the same patina ?
So, unless further info and more photos become available, and show something different, I'm gonna stick with the "as found near Tortilla Flat" info.

View attachment 1273126

Ok so i'm bored & I toyed around with the pieces, Now keep in mind i'm no artist!

View attachment 1273147View attachment 1273149

So my mind started wandering.....The pieces all have the same patina....so....



It won't fit in the small barrel unless they flip the bottom upside down & put 2 mounts/clips on it..you can see a start to a 3rd leg in orig picture......what do you think?



Larger, click on it....The more I look at it, he's not hanging on a cross, but maybe holding the sun? above his head....
A Crucifix wouldn't have a hole in the middle...

View attachment 1273155

somehiker mentioned a stand for the cross, which seems more likely...maybe this is how it should be?
View attachment 1273179

View attachment 1273180

 

[captain1965]

Or the bace of a plant stand.

 

[somehiker]

Why not just a stand for the cross itself ?
Is there some reason it HAS to be anything but ?
I might be crazy, but I'm beginning to think you guys is worse.....

Mike and Carrol:

This is what I meant, as tab and slot.

View attachment TS.bmp
Still leaves me wondering what the design and symbology represented to it's maker though.

That keg looks to be about 1 1/2 ft- 2 ft high, so it's not a trinket.
Probably weighs a fair bit too.

 

[Azquester]

I believe you may have an old altar of his lord.

And the sixth angel sounded the trumpet: and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before the eyes of God.” (Rev 9:13)

Moses grew Horns when he talked with God.

And when Moses came down from the Mount Sinai, he held the two tables of the testimony, and he knew not that his face was horned from the conversation of the Lord. And Aaron and the children of Israel seeing the face of Moses horned, were afraid to come near.” (Exodus 34:29—30, D-R)

At first I thought we may be dealing with Atlas. Then maybe Hercules holding the Sun or Moon.

The picture does show Jesus with a gonad which is more mythology. How many pictures have you seen with Jesus bare on the cross?

I believe we may have a four horned representation of either Moses or another horned deity.

The Altar has four legs and four horns as in the Vulgate bible.

But, the naked Jesus leaves questions about it's true origins.

It does seem to have some tablet looking object like Moses tablets. Possibly Moses talking with God and what you think you see as arms are in reality the Horns of light bearing down from the face of the Lord God. The Lord God of course being the lit object with a face looking down on Moses. I found a picture of a four horned goat that looked exactly like those in the Altar or stand. Then again you may have a devious object of satanic worship the horned goat man Satan looking down in the obis with his skin melted off. As above not below. Infinity Artifact. Dual forces neutralizing each other. One above ground and the other you traverse through a doorway into. All basic free masonry.

It sort of reminds me of Oren Arnold and the stone map knife with map stones he found in the Catalina Mountains looking for the Iron Door Mine. Full of mystery but don't pay to much for it.

 

[sgtfda]

Bill I thought you would have known it's history. After all it's reported originally found down your way at a Jesuit mine.

 

[alfonzo]

Pedro mine or something like that?

 

[sgtfda]

Something like that.

 

[EarnieP]

Is the symbol on top a form of the 'All-Seeing-eye Pyramid', which can be found on other crucifixes?
According to google search, has an older religious meaning of 'divine providence', but now with more sinister meanings.
What say you experts?

 

[Azquester]

Bill I thought you would have known it's history. After all it's reported originally found down your way at a Jesuit mine.

That was a group of naked Jesuits known as the "Gonad's". They were constantly getting into mischief with the tribes young Indian Maidens. The group would dance around the tribes campfires while slowly removing their black robes provocatively coaxing the young Indian Maidens to remove their loin cloth and join. Legend states they had a mission up on Bare Butte called the "Mission of the Wild Boys" where they would anoint the young maidens with the water from the rectumory while the other maidens would place donations in the Gonads under garments. The Rectumory was small building today we call an outhouse. It was said they hid a small treasure near that very site. This artifact is one of those used at the rectumory. It could lead to the sanctuary of the naked Indian Maiden which was a very sacred place. Today it would be known as the V.I.P. room. I think you found a modern version of one of those Frank. Anyway, the artifact in question came from that rectumory and was used for holding two rolls of toilet paper on the horn like features in the front. It was very important to the Gonads as they needed to be squeaky clean for the ceremonial dance with the now naked Indian Maidens.

It's a great find!

 

[sgtfda]

Not my interest. Talk to somehiker.

 

[Azquester]

Not my interest. Talk to somehiker.

I'm sorry, no disrespect intended. Jesuit history was a funny thing..

Actually, the all seeing eye fits right in with my theory about Moses depicted in the artifact. Moses talked with God and the all seeing eye is God. I'm going to attempt and find the other artifact I saw in a book with the same type horns and post it. It was from a certain time line....which may help identify it.

If it was found in a Jesuit Mine down by me the only true one I know of would be at the Alta Camp and the Gold Tree mine. When old Lucky Lully found it he found the remnants of a V.I.P. room nearby. Maybe old Hiker would like to come down here and explore that ancient V.I.P. room? That is, since he's so familiar with those types of Indian maidens. Just tell him to bring plenty of "Wampum".

 

[Azquester]

Here's a similar artifact,

The ancient mountain Goat God.

Usually a sign for this would be the birth of a four horned Mountain Goat.

 

[Hal Croves]

somehiker,
It's iron, appears to have been exposed to fire and not at all difficult to locate. I took pictures and collected several stories about it that I will forward.

View attachment 1275751​