Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[somehiker]

Somehiker, anything can be faked, reproduced or created.

So, what tells you that this is a fake ?
Do you know that it is, or are you just blowing smoke ?
After all, nobody has claimed it's an original Rembrandt.

Frank, I would be interested in compensating you for that info also. Send me a pm and we can discuss it. Thank you

You seemed pretty excited about it a couple of days ago. Enough to offer "compensation" for more information.
Or was ya just blowin smoke then too ?

That's the real reason for the deletion of the Tumlinson topics BTW.
Too many showing up to use the pool, instead of the outhouse.

 

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[Azquester]

How can we call it a fake when we haven't even identified it yet!

Lets at least try before we yell wolf.

It obviously has someone on a cross so I would dare say it would be Christ. Beyond that it seems to be more of a ancient culture type of surrounding around him. It could possibly be some sort of cross over between the Indian cultures and the European Catholic influences of the early periods in the Southwest Spanish occupation or subsequent proliferation of Indian Slavery under the guise of religion. The Indians may have made it for their own comfort while working the mines for the Spanish slave masters.

 

[Weaversneedle]

So, what tells you that this is a fake ?
Do you know that it is, or are you just blowing smoke ?
After all, nobody has claimed it's an original Rembrandt.



You seemed pretty excited about it a couple of days ago. Enough to offer "compensation" for more information.
Or was ya just blowin smoke then too ?

That's the real reason for the deletion of the Tumlinson topics BTW.
Too many showing up to use the pool, instead of the outhouse.

I never said they were fake, I said beware
, and i was never excited about it , just curious, did you ever think that maybe I checked into it and satisfied myself enough to know they weren't worth further investigation. I think alot of you people would do better to keep your mouth's shut and your ears open , you might learn more

 

[somehiker]

How can we call it a fake when we haven't even identified it yet!

Lets at least try before we yell wolf.

It obviously has someone on a cross so I would dare say it would be Christ. Beyond that it seems to be more of a ancient culture type of surrounding around him. It could possibly be some sort of cross over between the Indian cultures and the European Catholic influences of the early periods in the Southwest Spanish occupation or subsequent proliferation of Indian Slavery under the guise of religion. The Indians may have made it for their own comfort while working the mines for the Spanish slave masters.

search term......spanish colonial indigenous crucifix

https://www.google.ca/search?q=span...nfpr=1&q=spanish+colonial+indigenous+crucifix

Lots to look at and read by using the search term and link, Bill.

They were one of the first places I looked for further information on where something like this could have come from.

Mexicans of mixed blood had their own style in many of the examples discussed and shown.
Often based on a mixture of both Catholic and traditional beliefs and teaching.

 

[somehiker]

I never said they were fake, I said beware
, and i was never excited about it , just curious, did you ever think that maybe I checked into it and satisfied myself enough to know they weren't worth further investigation. I think alot of you people would do better to keep your mouth's shut and your ears open , you might learn more

Well then, if you have something worth sharing with the lot of us....we are all ears.

 

[Weaversneedle]

View attachment 1272849
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Hal, That is a very good pic of you

 

[Weaversneedle]

Well then, if you have something worth sharing with the lot of us....we are all ears.

Somehiker, Sharing information with people on this forum does not usually go over very well. Every time someone does they seem to get besieged upon by a few members here. Look what happened to the last man that tried to share his finds with you. First he was called a liar, then a profiteer, then he was accused of dealing the information out too slow and too small increments and he is not even a member here . So no thanks somehiker, I'll keep my info to myself

 

[somehiker]

Somehiker, Sharing information with people on this forum does not usually go over very well. Every time someone does they seem to get besieged upon by a few members here. Look what happened to the last man that tried to share his finds with you. First he was called a liar, then a profiteer, then he was accused of dealing the information out too slow and too small increments and he is not even a member here . So no thanks somehiker, I'll keep my info to myself

I take it then, that insofar as this topic is concerned, you have nothing more to add ?
I'll record your contribution as #5, and leave it at that.

#5...."chances are, this thing is fake"

 

[Weaversneedle]

I take it then, that insofar as this topic is concerned, you have nothing more to add ?
I'll record your contribution as #5, and leave it at that.

#5...."chances are, this thing is fake"

Somehiker, I don't know how it works in Canada but America is a free country and here you are free to see things as you like

 

[releventchair]

search term......spanish colonial indigenous crucifix

https://www.google.ca/search?q=span...nfpr=1&q=spanish+colonial+indigenous+crucifix

Lots to look at and read by using the search term and link, Bill.

They were one of the first places I looked for further information on where something like this could have come from.

Mexicans of mixed blood had their own style in many of the examples discussed and shown.
Often based on a mixture of both Catholic and traditional beliefs and teaching.

Despite the book being fiction, "I Heard the Owl Call My Name " , (set in B.C. .)describes the effect/affect of religious symbols bearing cross cultural influence.
Why shouldn't a native portrait reflect a similar skin tone for example , or eyes , to make the glory more relate-able?
Since reading it when it came out , whenever I view native depictions of a blending of cultures in a religious sense; I can sometimes catch the "compromise" if that is the proper term that helps in a sense bridge a gap..

 

[cw0909]

ive been looking into The Orthodox Faith , the more i look at it, the more
i think Orthodox, i so wish someone would post some high res imgs

 

[gollum]

Somehiker and Hal,

I have thought about those items many times over the years. IMHO, I don't believe they are meant to go together. The bottom section has four legs and four arms. Looks like it was meant to hold a pot/urn/mortar (as in mortar and pestle). The Crucifix looks like it was meant to be stood in a small mine shrine.

I don't know any of the backstory of this item, but I always liked the idea that those two things were being taken back to Mexico by the Peralta's/Gonzalez's, and got lost when the Indians Attacked........................


...................................... or ................................................

its fake. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[somehiker]

Somehiker, I don't know how it works in Canada but America is a free country and here you are free to see things as you like

Works the same up here.
But we also like to see all sides of the argument, along with the evidence, so we can make our own choice as to what we believe, right or wrong.
It's you that chooses not to sit at this table.

 

[somehiker]

Despite the book being fiction, "I Heard the Owl Call My Name " , (set in B.C. .)describes the effect/affect of religious symbols bearing cross cultural influence.
Why shouldn't a native portrait reflect a similar skin tone for example , or eyes , to make the glory more relate-able?
Since reading it when it came out , whenever I view native depictions of a blending of cultures in a religious sense; I can sometimes catch the "compromise" if that is the proper term that helps in a sense bridge a gap..

I think all artist tend to add some of their own to whatever they are creating. These personal/tribal/cultural traits show up in religious art just about everywhere, even Africa.
Though not always converted, many native peoples accepted both Missionary and the gospels, in part because some of what they were hearing was already part of their belief system. Where troubles occurred, local holy men/medicine men who resented the influence of the priests were often the instigators.

 

[Weaversneedle]

Works the same up here.
But we also like to see all sides of the argument, so we can make our own choice as to what we believe, right or wrong.
It's you that chooses not to sit at this table.

I'll sit at the table , I'm just not sharing. After what has gone on here lately I doubt I f very many people will want to share information here anymore.

 

[somehiker]

Somehiker and Hal,

I have thought about those items many times over the years. IMHO, I don't believe they are meant to go together. The bottom section has four legs and four arms. Looks like it was meant to hold a pot/urn/mortar (as in mortar and pestle). The Crucifix looks like it was meant to be stood in a small mine shrine.

I don't know any of the backstory of this item, but I always liked the idea that those two things were being taken back to Mexico by the Peralta's/Gonzalez's, and got lost when the Indians Attacked........................


...................................... or ................................................

its fake. HAHAHA

Mike

We would have to see if there is a built in way to fasten the upper and lower parts together.
Tang and slot, pinned connection or something like that.
It's been described as cast iron.....I suspect bell metal --a tin/copper/iron alloy.
And both pieces look to be from the same metal, which indicates to me that they were meant to be fitted together, but cast in two parts because of the complexity.
Patterns would have been made, a mold box and the proper type of casting sand used, and a high temperature furnace employed in order to wind up with something of this quality. We have already discussed the presence of furnaces and dross at some of the Missions, and some of the larger Presidios may have had the facilities and someone with the expertise to smelt and cast iron and alloys for tools etc. Bells were a little more difficult though, and if this was made from a bell metal alloy, it would narrow down the list of possible places where it was cast.
Or it might even say "where" on the back side.
The artist was very talented IMO.

 

[sdcfia]

I'll sit at the table , I'm just not sharing. After what has gone on here lately I doubt I f very many people will want to share information here anymore.

If you were around in the 1990s, you know that this is not a new thing. Some well-known figures, naive about the internet then, quit the discussions and never posted again. Our loss. Today? Too many kooks, too many trolls, too many social-media types, too little new information.

 

[gollum]

I'll sit at the table , I'm just not sharing. After what has gone on here lately I doubt I f very many people will want to share information here anymore.

Needle,

Don't sweat it. I believe what happened with "he who must not be named" HAHAHA was that when he originally showed up, he acted very arrogant without knowing much of the story. Once he got a little more involved, and actually started meeting people, things chilled out a good bit. Just look at his bestest buddy. Frank was knee deep in his rectum (Rectum, damn near killed'em) when Rya-- first came to TNet. After all he is neither a Dutch Hunter nor is he a Treasure Hunter. He has his own reasons for doing what he is doing, and from everything I have heard and seen, he is doing a bang-up job.

What you will also see here are some people that have been involved in this area for a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Some newbies. Some casual observers, and some trolls. If you read through enough LDM, Victorio Peak, Peg Leg Mine, etc, Threads, you will know who I mean.

I recommend my example. Don't have a thin skin. Be as honest and forthcoming as you can. Expect the same from others. If someone doesn't want to share, then that is their prerogative. Don't call names or make accusations unless warranted (with evidence to back your claims). If you are attacked, then respond with a full broadside. I have been here for about ten years, and in that time, I have only had one short time-out. Anybody that has known me for any length of time knows I don't take insults or threats very well. I have had more than my share of "issues" with internet trolls over the years.

One more important thing to remember (this is where a lot of new posters get tripped up): Only state something as a fact if you are willing to back it up with evidence. Without evidence, it is only a good story (or good theory). If what you are going to post is not backed up by either facts or a huge amount of circumstantial evidence.

If you do that, you will find that most of the people here will eagerly welcome a new voice (keyboard) to the discussion.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Hey gollum,
It needs to be examined professionally but I now think that it and the back story can be explained.

Do you know more about the "back story"?

Mike

 

[gollum]

We would have to see if there is a built in way to fasten the upper and lower parts together.
Tang and slot, pinned connection or something like that.
It's been described as cast iron.....I suspect bell metal --a tin/copper/iron alloy.
And both pieces look to be from the same metal, which indicates to me that they were meant to be fitted together, but cast in two parts because of the complexity.
Patterns would have been made, a mold box and the proper type of casting sand used, and a high temperature furnace employed in order to wind up with something of this quality. We have already discussed the presence of furnaces and dross at some of the Missions, and some of the larger Presidios may have had the facilities and someone with the expertise to smelt and cast iron and alloys for tools etc. Bells were a little more difficult though, and if this was made from a bell metal alloy, it would narrow down the list of possible places where it was cast.
Or it might even say "where" on the back side.
The artist was very talented IMO.

If you look closely at the picture, you will see that bottom of the cross arms are a good bit higher than the tops of the base. To me, the base would more likely be used for:



or like this without the base:



I believe they were two pieces of many that got bucked off some mules during an N-Deh Massacre of Mexicans.

Mike