The Peralta-Fish Map

[Blindbowman]

You're right because it depends on why you do what you're doing. It seems to me that many are attracted by the big ticket LDM allure because of the challenge of solving that which has eluded so many others for so many years. IMO, most likely realize that the solution will almost certainly elude them too. I get it that serious LDM hunters become part of a unique band of brothers and that it becomes a sort of personal branding. That's cool.

Me, I'd privately involve myself in a search that I calculated had reasonable chances of success because, 1) it would be fun, and 2) I'd be anticipating a nice payday.

your on the right track Frank with those tokens ..I started metal detecting at the age of 5 and I enjoy the hunt just as much if not more then treasure trove hunting ...look for pictures of the old buildings and that will get you in the right area ....I watch a pro one time hunt a burn site one time long ago he had a B Yukon compass and it was nothing great the old Beat frequency OBF and he did it so fast I was left in aw .. he set the ground balance and did a walk threw and when he did he knew the nails gave off a set sound . then he detuned to the nails . and walked threw again with no nails showing up at all .. crazy trick but it works ..... I have never seen anyone else ever do this .. you are ground balancing to the nails ...the ground balance with fade the nails and leave everything else there ...he picked off the good targets and then started snipping the small fine targets .. in about 1 hour he did a 60 by80 ft area and he walked away with over $40 in silver ...he was a friend of my dads or I would have never got to see that trick ...

 

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[Blindbowman]

Howdy azdave35,

I am well aware that there are many who doubt the Holmes Manuscript as much as the Peralta Stones. All their doubts come from assumptions, nothing else. One truth has to stand against many lies, and assumptions. The odds are always against the truth, that is why it is easier to doubt the truth.
Yes Brownie told Clay, "I don't know if Waltz ever lied to my Dad, but I know my Dad never lied to me". That is just because Brownie could not find the things Waltz said were there.

Brownie did not write it .. Dick rewrote what was in the will to make it sound more like Waltz gave it to him . that's not true Waltz was most likely dead when Dick took letter .. Waltz had made some changes in the letter just in case and Dick H. had no way of know that .. dick changed a few lines and change a few words here and there . but its easy to find what words he changed .. if you know what your looking for and where the mine is ...IMHO Brownie did not write the letter or change it in any way .... Dick H. change the letter but did not write it .. Waltz is the only one that could have wrote that letter ... once the mine is made public the truth will prove what I saying is true ....

 

[Blindbowman]

Old habits die hard Amigo, look at what you just did to the Holmes Manuscript. You twist it around to make Waltz seem innocent from his confession to murder by taking away words from Waltz's mouth. No, you will never see it, old habits die hard.

You said that people were accusing Waltz of being a murderer. I did not insert a misunderstanding, the reason I inserted "in his time", is because only before his confession to murder could it be an accusation, after his confession, it is not an accusation anymore. I thought you would understand this.

Early writers knew of Waltz confession to murder because that was all the Holmes and Roberts were willing to share with others.

Homar

very true . and if Julia had not taken him to court you have never seen the letter at all IMHO in fact we all know law and his confession is grounds for the Peralta family to reclaim the mine ....this IMHO tells us he did kill 3 of them for the mine ...

 

[Blindbowman]

in fact that's why I showed everyone where the Peralta camp site was . because that's where the 3 Peralta are burred ....!

 

[gollum]

Excellent post, IMO. I agree with all points that you made. My contention re the LDM has always been that I personally would not put an ounce of effort into a serious search for the alleged site - the odds are overwhelmingly negative, even if the story is true. It all depends on why a person believes the things he does about these Classic Lost Treasures. I would prefer chasing little-known challenges in less trampled locations. The odds are much better.

True all........exceeeeeeeept: there are several little known treasure stories that are in the Superstition Mountain Area.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

True all........exceeeeeeeept: there are several little known treasure stories that are in the Superstition Mountain Area.

Mike

If I lived in central AZ, those are the ones I'd want to know about.

 

[gollum]

If I lived in central AZ, those are the ones I'd want to know about.

.......and I know about a whole bunch of'em. I know a lot about the LDM, but that is only because I go out there looking for other stuff, and if I didn't know all this stuff, I might just step over the LDM. Just like after Waltz died. Julia Thomas sold her store, got what money she could, took Reiney and a couple of others, and went into the mountains where Waltz said to go. The group didn't find crap. but they literally walked over the ledge that would become the Mammoth Mine nine months later.

I would hate to get close to one thing and completely miss it because I was looking for something else.

Here's a great example: I started looking into treasure stories local to here when I moved here. One of the stories is about a lost gold mine. Found by the Spanish in about 1650. The Yavapai Apache chased them off. Only the Yavapai knows where the mine is. When Geronimo was imprisoned at Ft. Sill, scheduled to be executed, he offered to show his captors a rich gold mine in the North Verde Valley. They didn't take him up on it and hanged him. There are a few versions of the story, but they all end in Sycamore Canyon. I got to be friends with a Hawaiian Guy that has a Hawaiian BBQ Roadside Stand on the Reservation. He has lived there for 35 years (he married a Yavapai). Last week, I jokingly said to him "Wow! 35 years. You must know all the Yavapai secrets!" He told me that his now deceased Father-In-Law told him about a gold mine in Sycamore Canyon, but being 92, he was too old to take him there. I told him to ask around some elders, and if he could find out, I would set him up for life. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

.......and I know about a whole bunch of'em. I know a lot about the LDM, but that is only because I go out there looking for other stuff, and if I didn't know all this stuff, I might just step over the LDM. Just like after Waltz died. Julia Thomas sold her store, got what money she could, took Reiney and a couple of others, and went into the mountains where Waltz said to go. The group didn't find crap. but they literally walked over the ledge that would become the Mammoth Mine nine months later.

I would hate to get close to one thing and completely miss it because I was looking for something else.

Here's a great example: I started looking into treasure stories local to here when I moved here. One of the stories is about a lost gold mine. Found by the Spanish in about 1650. The Yavapai Apache chased them off. Only the Yavapai knows where the mine is. When Geronimo was imprisoned at Ft. Sill, scheduled to be executed, he offered to show his captors a rich gold mine in the North Verde Valley. They didn't take him up on it and hanged him. There are a few versions of the story, but they all end in Sycamore Canyon. I got to be friends with a Hawaiian Guy that has a Hawaiian BBQ Roadside Stand on the Reservation. He has lived there for 35 years (he married a Yavapai). Last week, I jokingly said to him "Wow! 35 years. You must know all the Yavapai secrets!" He told me that his now deceased Father-In-Law told him about a gold mine in Sycamore Canyon, but being 92, he was too old to take him there. I told him to ask around some elders, and if he could find out, I would set him up for life. HAHAHA

Mike

That's a great plan, but finding the info is the key. Latter day hearsay is a bit of a shaky source, IMO, but all such clues need to be evaluated.

Geronimo was likely the world's greatest manipulator of white guys back in the day, even to his death in 1909. By the way, he died in bed of pneumonia, not the noose. Got kicked off a horse at age 80 and lay out in the elements until they found him on the ground the next day. He made a substantial fortune in cash during the many years of imprisonment following his surrender - selling autographs (soldiers taught him to sign his name), paid personal appearances, demanding book royalties, peddling handmade arrows, etc. He had accumulated about $10,000 cash by the end, and that's when a dollar was worth something. Who needs a gold mine?

 

[Oroblanco]

Old habits die hard Amigo, look at what you just did to the Holmes Manuscript. You twist it around to make Waltz seem innocent from his confession to murder by taking away words from Waltz's mouth. No, you will never see it, old habits die hard.

You said that people were accusing Waltz of being a murderer. I did not insert a misunderstanding, the reason I inserted "in his time", is because only before his confession to murder could it be an accusation, after his confession, it is not an accusation anymore. I thought you would understand this.

Early writers knew of Waltz confession to murder because that was all the Holmes and Roberts were willing to share with others.

Homar

We were not there when the Holmes manuscript was written. Neither were we there when that supposed 'confession' took place. To further cast doubt on it, note that neither Julia nor Reiney had any kind of inkling of these supposed murders. They were his closest friends at the time of his death. And as Mike pointed out, even Brownie Holmes denied having written that manuscript. Still want to put your faith in it? By all means, do so and good luck to you. Can you name any other source that has Jacob Waltz confessing to murders besides the Holmes manuscript?

 

[azdave35]

Howdy azdave35,

I am well aware that there are many who doubt the Holmes Manuscript as much as the Peralta Stones. All their doubts come from assumptions, nothing else. One truth has to stand against many lies, and assumptions. The odds are always against the truth, that is why it is easier to doubt the truth.
Yes Brownie told Clay, "I don't know if Waltz ever lied to my Dad, but I know my Dad never lied to me". That is just because Brownie could not find the things Waltz said were there.

homar..we have to go by what we know...we know dick holmes was with waltz at the end because he got the gold from under the bed...it would be hard to dispute that...we also know that dick told brownie everything he knew about the ldm including what waltz told him..we also know that brownie and clay were partners for many years and he told clay everything that he knew..including what dick told him..i know clay and his reputation is impeccable ..you wont find anyone around here that has a bad word to say about clay..those are the facts as we know them...so that being said clay is the only one that really knows for sure what waltz told dick..just because brownie never found anything doesn't mean much...i could tell you where the treasure cave by tortilla flat is and i can pretty much guarantee you wouldn't find it...i'd have to show you and i don't know if i could locate it after all these years...you would know this if you had ever been in the supers

 

[coazon de oro]

We were not there when the Holmes manuscript was written. Neither were we there when that supposed 'confession' took place. To further cast doubt on it, note that neither Julia nor Reiney had any kind of inkling of these supposed murders. They were his closest friends at the time of his death. And as Mike pointed out, even Brownie Holmes denied having written that manuscript. Still want to put your faith in it? By all means, do so and good luck to you. Can you name any other source that has Jacob Waltz confessing to murders besides the Holmes manuscript?

Howdy Roy,

Of coarse we were not there, but Holmes, and Roberts were. Julia, and Petrash were Waltz's closest friends when he has sick, not when he was on his deathbed. When he was in his deathbed, Julia rushed out to find the Doctor. Confessions to murder usually come out only when one is about to meet his maker.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy azdave,

I agree with everything you posted.

Homar

 

[Blindbowman]

We were not there when the Holmes manuscript was written. Neither were we there when that supposed 'confession' took place. To further cast doubt on it, note that neither Julia nor Reiney had any kind of inkling of these supposed murders. They were his closest friends at the time of his death. And as Mike pointed out, even Brownie Holmes denied having written that manuscript. Still want to put your faith in it? By all means, do so and good luck to you. Can you name any other source that has Jacob Waltz confessing to murders besides the Holmes manuscript?

yes it can be proven . if the 3 bodies are at the Peralta camp site like the letter stated .. in fact the Peralta Camp was right where the letter stated it was ...and proving Dick Holmes change the letter is easy ....proving what words Waltz changed is easy to if you know how and why ...but tilli go back everything is waiting for me ...but right now I am sick so I wait as well ...

 

[Hal Croves]

homar..we have to go by what we know...we know dick holmes was with waltz at the end because he got the gold from under the bed...it would be hard to dispute that...we also know that dick told brownie everything he knew about the ldm including what waltz told him..we also know that brownie and clay were partners for many years and he told clay everything that he knew..including what dick told him..i know clay and his reputation is impeccable ..you wont find anyone around here that has a bad word to say about clay..those are the facts as we know them...so that being said clay is the only one that really knows for sure what waltz told dick..just because brownie never found anything doesn't mean much...i could tell you where the treasure cave by tortilla flat is and i can pretty much guarantee you wouldn't find it...i'd have to show you and i don't know if i could locate it after all these years...you would know this if you had ever been in the supers

Which is why people make maps, unfortunately not always detailed.
There must have been verbal instructions and or a system of markers with the PF map.

I wonder if Frank passed any of that conversation with the Peraltas to Lake Erie?
And what she shared with the Legends of Adventure team?

 

[azdave35]

[/B]Which is why people make maps, unfortunately not always detailed.
There must have been verbal instructions and or a system of markers with the PF map.

I wonder if Frank passed any of that conversation with the Peraltas to Lake Erie?
And what she shared with the Legends of Adventure team?

hal...a map with not enough detail is like toilet paper..
greg should be able to answer your questions about what frank told erie

 

[Blindbowman]

[/B]Which is why people make maps, unfortunately not always detailed.
There must have been verbal instructions and or a system of markers with the PF map.

I wonder if Frank passed any of that conversation with the Peraltas to Lake Erie?
And what she shared with the Legends of Adventure team?

the PF map did have a full description, a copy was found in Ruth's remains ...wallet or check book ..the killer mountains gave it out word for word ... that had great details ...

 

[Blindbowman]

just to make sure we are all on the same page that's the description that ended with the Latin words veni, vidi, vici.

 

[Blindbowman]

I would also like to add a over sight to this ... the problem dose not look to be the descriptions or the quality of the maps . the flaw comes from the massive rough rock formations and over burden ,the sheer complexity of the terrain just stuns ones sense ,not to add to the effects on the human brain from massive ore deposits and magnetic anomalies in the area ,you can deny or except the curse for what it is to each of you ...but the list can change every time you go out there and even your own abilities can react to the conditions of the mountains for any given date you do get out there ..and all said turn around and ask the guy following you if he agrees ...

 

[sdcfia]

[/B]Which is why people make maps, unfortunately not always detailed.
There must have been verbal instructions and or a system of markers with the PF map.

I wonder if Frank passed any of that conversation with the Peraltas to Lake Erie?
And what she shared with the Legends of Adventure team?

Just a thought: has anyone seen a map known to have led someone to a location where hidden valuables were found? Sure, these things must have existed for private uses, but has the public ever been shown such a thing?

 

[gollum]

Just a thought: has anyone seen a map known to have led someone to a location where hidden valuables were found? Sure, these things must have existed for private uses, but has the public ever been shown such a thing?

I haven't seen the actual map, but yes, I know of a case where a map led to a lost gold ledge. Its a great story that should be told. I won't say to whom this story applies, but we know them.

Around the turn of the last century, on German New Guinea, a German guy was burying his horse up on a volcano. While digging the hole, he discovered gold! Tough to mine because it was in an active volcanic caldera. He never got the chance to exploit the find due to WWI breaking out and Australia annexed the island. The German wrote a letter before he died of malaria that was intercepted by the Australian government with a map and directions to the site. After WW1 two well known Australian prospectors in the 1930's explored the site however WW2 came along and the Japanese invaded....After the war it was an American who had been a prisoner of war with one of the Australian prospectors who had been killed by the Japanese Guards.

Years later his son (a mining engineer) formed a company that eventually evolved into Lihir Gold in 1995. The company had a terrible time trying to raise capital because the site was still technically an active volcanic caldera. In fact the power station at the mine today is run by hot groundwater. It was through a company we worked for PNG Drillers who went bankrupt. However as we worked on as contractors but were paid in part with shares of LIHIR Gold at twenty-five cents per share of the project. At first we thought we had been duded...And for a long time it looked like we had. That was then; 15 years later a multinational miner the 5th biggest in the world saw the potential and bought the original company out... our shares went ballistic. I think from memory it was a 10.9 billion dollar take over and they wanted our shares so badly they made a fantastic offer. In the end they gave us the same values as Newcrest mining share value as the two companies. So our original 25 cent shares was merged and matched us share for share. 22nd of October Newcrest mining shares was about 39 dollars a share and gold was riding a all time high. So my friend, when some says no one has ever benefited from a treasure map I beg to differ.....And of course we took the money and ran with it all the way to the bank.


Mike