The Peralta Stones

[gollum]

Springfield,

You are correct that bb's "scattergun approach" sometimes bumps up against something that may be historically accurate. I am talking about little known history.

Aztecs in the area of the Superstitions is one such case. John Bourke wrote in his diaries of finding small "Aztec" style buildings close to the mountains and the Salt River. In fact, he drew a picture of one of the buildings/temple. I posted that information on this site earlier.

It is more likely that the buildings were built by the Hohokam and Salado.

A search should turn up the post.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

I'm at work right now and will have to find specifics at home, but one of the Pimeria Missions (just South of the current border) was built over the ruins of what was described as an Aztec Temple.

Both the Aztecs and Maya traded with Indians far to the North of where Anthropologists place them (I know you already know that). Aztec structures were not uncommon finds near the present day border area in Colonial Spanish Days. Naturally, they were torn down for the greater glory of God! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

[Joe,

I'm at work right now and will have to find specifics at home, but one of the Pimeria Missions (just South of the current border) was built over the ruins of what was described as an Aztec Temple.

Both the Aztecs and Maya traded with Indians far to the North of where Anthropologists place them (I know you already know that). Aztec structures were not uncommon finds near the present day border area in Colonial Spanish Days. Naturally, they were torn down for the greater glory of God! HAHAHA

Best-Mike]

As I said, it's more likely that the building you are speakin of were built by the Hohokam. That being said, it's possible they were built by the Aztec.

"Naturally, they were torn down for the greater glory of God! HAHAHA"

I see your point. Far better if the Aztecs had defeated the Spaniards. That might have made it possible for millions of beating hearts to have been ripped out of the chests of living humans, instead of the hundreds of thousands that they were limited to.

Just when someone's god gets things rolling good, someone else just has to step in and spoil a good show. No doubt the people of Mexico also wish the Aztecs were still the big dogs down there. I probably shouldn't have said "dogs".

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Lost: you posted -->

no one under stood what i was talking about

you dont under stand it do you ..?

by the way , if you do not under stand yet
**************

what's your problem? and why an incorrect assumption? I imagine that all in here were / are quite capable in understanding that you had posted pages of variations in the spoken language, but not of the written one such as would be applicable to the stones?

Clarify my friend, even ole gully with a lousy IQ of only 150, understands your posts.

Don Jose de La Mnacha

 

[gollum]

As I said, it's more likely that the building you are speakin of were built by the Hohokam. That being said, it's possible they were built by the Aztec.

Not really. The Spanish knew what Aztec Architecture looked like. If they say that the Mission was built on what looked like an old Aztec Temple, that's good enough for me. While you may be content with maybes and could've beens, I take the words of the people who were there, and require proof of the opposite.

Best-Mike

 

[goldbugpr]

I hope that many of you will take the time and spend the bucks and come photo the Stone Maps on Sunday 8AM.
A nice turn out will prove the importance of the Maps in the Superstition legends.
Hope to meet you all.
Phil

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Phil,

Let's get together for breakfast and coffee at the Crow's Nest Cafe @185 N Apache Trl, #6, Apache Junction around 07:00 AM before the Stone Map Shoot. Everyone is invited, especially Treasurenet people who live in or near the AJ area. The grub is great and wouldn’t it be nice to meet some of you unsavory folks.

I got my new digital camera so I can take some super nice pics. By the way, most of you are familiar with Dobie’s book, "Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver"; remember the story "Can You Read Shadder Writing?". Let's solve the B-8 mystery related to the horse stone. I have looked over a great many photos of the horse map and it seems to me that the direction of the light source produces different effects (shadow) depending on how the map is positioned in reference to the light source. All I have to do is duplicate the conditions necessary to reproduce the phenomenon.

Either way, see you in La Dias,

Ellie Baba

 

[gollum]

Hey Folks,

If I'm driving all the way from Los Angeles for this, almost anybody can!

See ya tomorrow Phil!

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sigh sorry gully, 600 mi each way is a little too much. sides you have nice new, air conditioned, white land rover, while I only have my mule.

However, I do expect a confirmation on that as being an '8'. In return, I'll rub a piece of the Tayopa gold on a piece of paper and mail it to you so that you can sniff it. Smells lovely.

Don Jose de La Mancha (Tropical Tramp)

p.s Plus 4 hrs crossing the border ??

 

[Cubfan64]

2,671 miles each way for me - I'll watch for the pictures this time

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good sunny Sunday morning everyone: for all. Baba, after finding shadow / bias markings that only show up on certain days of the year at a certain time, it occurs to me that perhaps that B-8 may have purposefully been made ambiguous.

The natural tendency would be to fit it into the other wording as a "B". If so, it then assumes much greater importance, and opens up a new can of worms..

Don Jose de La Mancha (Tropical Tramp)

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

It has become popular with some, because no mine or treasure has been located, by using the Stone Maps, that they must be changed from what is obvious to something less obvious. While I find the trail maps easy to read, it's possible that there is some kind of secret code in the body of the maps that holds the truth.

While many people believe they know the secret codes and how the maps must be changed, no one has managed to find the "pot of gold". The one thing that remains constant with the maps, is the terrain they depict. Some folks will examine my map and say it's got nothing to do with the Stone Maps. That may be, but I am still waiting to see something better, which leads to an actual mine, as my map does.

An interesting side note to my maps, is that they follow Bicknell's instruction to the letter, and that means that Ruth was on the Stone Map Trail. While looking for two of the monuments that are shown on the Stone Maps, I found them on the ridge exactly where they were located on the maps.
They were not little monuments, but probably close to six feet tall and around eighteen inches square.
That was around 35 years ago, and they have both been destroyed in that time......completely.

There are a number of other facts that confirm that I have the map layed out correctly, but there is no sense in going over that again. I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing about my "evidence".

If everyone keeps changing the maps, a hundred years from now they will probably be a pretty good map of Apache Junction.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

no one under stood what i was talking about . i get that alot ...lol may be this will help

Stress
The grave accent marks the stressed vowel of a word in Catalan and Italian. Some examples from Italian are città "city", morì "[he/she] died", virtù "virtue", Mosè "Moses", portò "[he/she] brought, carried". Especially with capital letters, or when using a keyboard without accented letters, an apostrophe is sometimes used instead of it in Italian, thus E’ instead of È "[he/she/it] is", though this is considered (at least) inelegant and inaccurate (though the phrase un po’ meaning "a little" is infrequently spelt as un pò, because it's a truncated version of un poco).

In Italian there are pairs of words, one accented and the other not, with different pronunciation and meaning, such as pero "pear tree" and però "but", and papa "pope" and papà "dad" (the last example is also valid for Catalan).


you dont under stand it do you ..?

the letter X is not a letter . it is a grave accent marks but the X is a number , only the most highest edicated would know or under stand this type of writeing even back then , 1362 gives it away when you know what your looking for ..

as i stated in the Peralta stone the language is a early or old Portuguese, no one makeing a modern fake would even know this ..

often Vulgar Latin came from the Catalan and Italian and was as they say

Vulgar Latin (see Latin language) brought to the Iberian Peninsula by its Roman conquerors, could be distinguished from the parent tongue before the Vulgar Latin (see Latin language) brought to the Iberian Peninsula by its Roman conquerors, could be distinguished from the parent tongue before the 11th cent. The Portuguese spoken in Lisbon and Coimbra gave rise to the Standard Portuguese of today. Although the greater part of the Portuguese vocabulary comes from Latin, The Portuguese spoken in Lisbon and Coimbra gave rise to the Standard Portuguese of today. Although the greater part of the Portuguese vocabulary comes from Latin, now to under stand what i am saying .. the Peralta stones are not 1847 modern Spainish the wording is far older then the 1847 date . guess what , its not a date at all

fact !

these stones are real and they were copies of a much older sorce ...not the 1847 date . its not a date at all , these stones were copies from a older Templar rune stone set dated after the 11th cent most likely closer to the rune stone date of 1362 ...both share the same language & simbolics

Dear Always Lost;
I happen to have a good grasp of the Catalan language and it's very similar in most aspects to Portuguese and I can state without reservation that the stone writings did not have a Portuguese or Catalan influence. They were carved by a native English speaker with very limited Spanish faculties.

I have no desire to go back and belabor all of my previous points, however ALL evidence shows that the Peralta Stones were carved sometime in the 1940s. I have no idea what the original purpose of the stones were for and what they were supposed to relay, however I do know that they were NOT carved prior to the 1940s and that they were NOT carved by a native Spanish speaker, nor were they carved by someone who knew a great deal about Spanish colonial history.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi All,

Just made it back home after the photo shoot of Stone Maps at the Superstition Museum in A.J., AZ. Two things I found; 1. Once the horse map is orientated to the correct position in the sun the "8" (eight) can be clearly seen. Inside the museum or sighted from a different position outside the "B" stands out. The left side of the "B" incision is straight as an arrow. 2. The same works for the word "DON" on the back of the Trail Stone Map. We placed the tablet on a north/south direction and turned it slowly to an east/west direction with the "D" end facing east and soon a sun shadow produced the word "DON". Photos will soon be posted from others who attended.

There are still some who just cannot seem to grasp the logic; therefore we will continue to have disagreements abound concerning these stone maps. That's why we have forums so that we can all try to prove out our own beliefs; right Lamar.

By the way, what proof do you have that indicates the maps were not made before the 1940's (unless you are referring to the current existing maps)?

Life is an adventure wherever you live it.

Ellie Baba

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

WAITING patiently (?)

DJdLM TT

 

[Ellie Baba]

Good sunny Sunday morning everyone: for all. Baba, after finding shadow / bias markings that only show up on certain days of the year at a certain time, it occurs to me that perhaps that B-8 may have purposefully been made ambiguous.

The natural tendency would be to fit it into the other wording as a "B". If so, it then assumes much greater importance, and opens up a new can of worms..

Don Jose de La Mancha (Tropical Tramp)

Some simple logic can be applied here. The Horse of the Holy Faith is not a place, it is a symbol.

The Horse of God
BERGERE PAS DE TENTATION QUE POUSSIN TENIERS GARDENT LA CLEF PAX DCL XXX I PAR LA CROIX ET CE CHEVAL DE DIEU J'ACHEVE CE DAEMONDE GARDIEN A MIDI POMMES BLUES.
Shepherdess no temptation that Poussin and Teniers guard the key PAX DCLXXX I by the cross and this Horse of God I complete this world guardian at noon (or in the South) blue apples.
N.B. We translate the words "CE DAEMON DE" not as THIS DEMON
(as is commonly done) but as "CE DAEMONDE", THIS WORLD.
In our opinion this phrase should be read as:
Shepherdess no temptation... Poussin and Teniers guard the key: PAX DCL XXX I
By the Horse of God and the Cross… I complete this world… Guardian in the South
(of France) or at noon; Blue Apples.
So this decoded text mentions a "KEY" given by TWO painters:
Nicolas Poussin and David Teniers...
And indeed, the first key is hidden in the painting "The Arcadian Shepherds",
by the famous 17-th century French master Nicolas Poussin.
(Also known as: "Et in Arcadia Ego...".)

http://www.perillos.com/tombs_christ.html Check out this site for more info.

The Horse of the Holy Faith is the Lord’s Horse, his gaze is affixed to the cross which will lead us to the greatest treasure known on earth; the Gospel of Christ! So the Stone Maps depict that this noble animal can also lead us to other kinds of treasures. All we have to do is follow him, that is the horse and we must study, each one of us, our own hearts.

The “8”, infinity, analemma, forever and ever, the beginning and the end and rebirth. The Horse of the Holy Faith and all he represents will go on forever and so on.
The Stone Maps truly do in fact lead us to the greatest treasure in all of creation. Take your pick.
I would like to choose both options although one is for certain, the other?

Ellie Baba

 

[Furness]

Hi EB,

This gets weirder and weirder, as that what you have quoted is associated with the Treasure of Rennes le Chateaue in France and there is believed to be a connection with the Rosicrucian's,

furness

 

[lamar]

Hi All,

Just made it back home after the photo shoot of Stone Maps at the Superstition Museum in A.J., AZ. Two things I found; 1. Once the horse map is orientated to the correct position in the sun the "8" (eight) can be clearly seen. Inside the museum or sighted from a different position outside the "B" stands out. The left side of the "B" incision is straight as an arrow. 2. The same works for the word "DON" on the back of the Trail Stone Map. We placed the tablet on a north/south direction and turned it slowly to an east/west direction with the "D" end facing east and soon a sun shadow produced the word "DON". Photos will soon be posted from others who attended.

There are still some who just cannot seem to grasp the logic; therefore we will continue to have disagreements abound concerning these stone maps. That's why we have forums so that we can all try to prove out our own beliefs; right Lamar.

By the way, what proof do you have that indicates the maps were not made before the 1940's (unless you are referring to the current existing maps)?

Life is an adventure wherever you live it.

Ellie Baba

Dear Ellie Baba;
You asked:
By the way, what proof do you have that indicates the maps were not made before the 1940's (unless you are referring to the current existing maps)?
This is some sort of joke, isn't it? The evidence against the stone maps being carved before the 1940s is pretty much ENDLESS! FOr example:
The style of the lettering
The style of caricatures (figures)
The Bowie knife
The shape of the heart
The position of the brand on the horse
The so-called *Spanish* words used
The grammar
The tools used to carve the stone maps

And on and on. I could fill a book on all of the errors, mistakes and modern connotations associated with the stone maps, but why should I bother? The maps have examined by DROVES of highly respected and VERY highly trained and qualified historians and end result is always the same. The stone maps were carved sometime between the 1940s and the 1960s. Not a single accredited historian is willing to stake his/her reputation and professional credentials by claiming otherwise. To do so would be to invite ridicule and laughter. I am by no means an expert and I could tell the stone maps were produced during modern times, so that should state something in and of itself.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Joe:
Those who were singing Dies Irae were in a hall one floor above the hall that the Ethiopians were using.The Ethiopian service did include a great deal of chanting by the three priests,the Bishop,and a couple of others who I think were lay brothers.Some of it certainly sounded like latin to me and some was spoken in Ethiopian...even the odd bit of english here and there.It lasted about 5 1/2 hours in total.If they do sing "Dies Irae",I would expect it to be in Latin,but I will ask if you'd like.

Regards:Wayne

Dear SomeHiker;
You stated:
If they do sing "Dies Irae",I would expect it to be in Latin
Not necessarily true, my friend. First, Christianity has been a part of the Ethiopian culture since the evangelical journeys of the Apostle St. Thomas, if memory serves correctly. Ethiopia has two major Christian faiths, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Ethiopian Catholic Church. The liturgical Rites of both are identical in most aspects.

And now, to further confuse matters, the Council of Trent in AD 1570 concluded that any Christian Church which used a Missal for at least two hundred years continiously, prior to the decision of the Council may continue to do so for all time. In short, any Christian Church which had used a Missal continuously from at least AD 1370 had the right to continue using it until today.

The Ethiopian Christian Church was established around AD 80 and they have used the same Missal without change since that time, therefore the Ethiopian Catholics are permitted to continue celebrating Mass using the Ethiopian Rite, as set forth by the Council of Trent. And this SHOULD be the end of it, however nothing is quite that simple.

When the Portuguese started the Age of Discovery in the 1500s, they set up and settled along the shores of Ethiopia, thus bringing the Tridentine Latin Mass with them. Thus the Ethiopian Catholic Church can celebrate Mass in either the Western Latin Rite or the Eastern Rite of Ethiopia without fear of reprisals or repercussions. Thus, about 50% of the Ethiopian Catholic Church celebrates Mass in the older Ethiopian Rite and the other 50% celebrates it in the Latin Rite.

One sure-fire to assure that the Church is Ethiopian Catholic and not Ethiopian Orthodox is to listen to prayer requests during the Mass. If there is a prayer for the Pope, then you may rest assured that the Church is indeed Catholic. It is part of Ethiopian Catholic dogma to publicly pray for the Pope on ordinary Sundays in order to *prove* that they are indeed in full communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope). The Vatican in no way requires this from the Ethiopians, however it is looked upon as a very nice gesture on the part of the Ethiopian Catholics.

And Dies Irae can be chanted (never actually *sung*) in the Gregorian manner in all languages, including Ethiopian and no matter what language it's chanted in, it remains one of my all-time favorites.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlr90NLDp-0&a=lntbw6cBxCo&playnext_from=ML
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Ellie Baba]

My Friend Lamar,

Would you consider that the stone maps may have been produced at the turn of the century. Lets say 1903 to 1910? There is a thirty year difference to consider, and it fits into my time frame for this edition of the stone maps that we currently refer to. How could anyone believe that this set of stone maps could be any older than the site that they are referring to?

Have a great week everyone!

Ellie Baba

 

[lamar]

My Friend Lamar,

Would you consider that the stone maps may have been produced at the turn of the century. Lets say 1903 to 1910? There is a thirty year difference to consider, and it fits into my time frame for this edition of the stone maps that we currently refer to. How could anyone believe that this set of stone maps could be any older than the site that they are referring to?

Have a great week everyone!

Ellie Baba

Dear Ellie Baba;
No, I do not feel that the stones were carved earlier than the 1940s however I did make one rather curious observation, but I tend to not mention it as it would only serve to further cloud the issue.
Your friend;
LAMAR