Treasures of the Knights Templar - Conspiracy Theories!

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

To look at the document subjectively one would get the impresssion that it was written a very long time after the fact.

Hmm then we would have to wonder WHY someone would bother to write such a document at all, when clearly there was nothing to gain, a very long time after the fact. No Templars would be alive to have any benefit, clearly, if this were truly the case. I did not post the whole of the translation, the opening address reads,

To the honourable doctors and scholars of the university of Paris, Greeting.

If the quite amazing and absolutely stupifying cruelty of the enemy of the human race treacherously devised by diabolical instigation in the area of Gascony, which is recognised to be part of the French kingdom, is diligently examined it ought to turn the hearts of the faithful to compassionate mourning and bitter tears of compunction. Meanwhile, the kingdom's living fount of justice which used to irrigate the whole globe with its example and customs has completely dried up. The shining light of truth, which used to reside on the crown of the candelabra, lighting not only this kingdom but all nations and peoples, has been placed under a bushel so that it may not be seen!



...which while not addressing a particular person by NAME, is apparently intended for the men in charge of the trials at the University of Paris. Perhaps the author did not know the name(s) of those heading the investigations and trials?
Oroblanco

 

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[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
If it's not too much trouble, could you please post the entire translation? As always, thank you in advance.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

No trouble at all amigo, here is the full text

Translation and notes by Helen J. Nicholson

Ed. note: the following original translation was provided to ORB by Dr. Helen Nicholson, who teaches at the University of Wales-Cardiff College.

This was written early in 1308, by an anonymous writer close to the Templars. Everything in brackets [] has been added by the translator.

To the honourable doctors and scholars of the university of Paris, Greeting.

If the quite amazing and absolutely stupifying cruelty of the enemy of the human race treacherously devised by diabolical instigation in the area of Gascony, which is recognised to be part of the French kingdom, is diligently examined it ought to turn the hearts of the faithful to compassionate mourning and bitter tears of compunction. Meanwhile, the kingdom's living fount of justice which used to irrigate the whole globe with its example and customs has completely dried up. The shining light of truth, which used to reside on the crown of the candelabra, lighting not only this kingdom but all nations and peoples, has been placed under a bushel so that it may not be seen!

All this is clearly apparent from the unheard of and inquitious proceedings issued against the Templars, which contain no justice but rather savage tyranny, since they were arrested without warning, suddenly without right or judgement being made, shamefully and dishonourably incarcerated with destructive rage, afflicted with taunts, the gravest threats, and various sorts of torture, compelled to die or produce absurd lies which they knew nothing about, wrongly given into the hands of their enemies, who force them through those torments to read out a foul, filthy and lying list which cannot be conceived by human ears and should not enter the human heart. But when the brothers refuse to produce these lies, although they know absolutely nothing about them, the torments of the attendants who press them daily force them to speak the lies, saying that they must recite them before the Jacobins and assert that they are true if they wish to preserve their lives and obtain the king's plentiful grace.

But many of them, choosing to serve God rather than Mammon, have so strongly embraced truth, that thirty-six of them in the Paris house alone, besides an infinite number of others who have been similarly treated throughout various parts of the kingdom, have passed through these torments like athletes of Christ with the martyr's palm to the Lord and attained the celestial kingdom. Of the rest, many, belted with divine virtue, have been destroyed by the tortures of the aforementioned attendants and left for dead, only half-alive. Like the strongest of warriors they have always held to the word of truth, saying that the brothers of the Temple promise four things when they enter the order, i.e., obedience, chastity, poverty, and that they will expend all their strength in the service of the Holy Land. They are received with an honourable kiss of peace; they take the Lord's Cross together with the habit, custom and rule from the Roman Church and the Holy Fathers and they are taught to keep them safely. The same brothers of the said order report, assert and repeat this on their own oath again and again.

But the said attendants and the Jacobin friars, masters--or rather, assassins--of great iniquity, block their ears like adders do against this truth, which they are unable to understand, and twist it like venomous serpents do, since in their malice they desire to get the result they hope for; because they are deceived by their ardent hatred and blinded by their savage cupidity. They hope to enrich their monks and associates at the expense of others, to get fat on the Templars' goods, so that they will be able to gain a part of their revenues forever. So they order that the Templars who tell the truth should be tortured fiercely for so long until either they die from the punishment or they are forced to suppress the truth and lie that they denied God, despised Christ's Cross and produce the other worthless things which not only should not be done but not even described.

What is more, if they do not say these things, not only before but even after torture, they are always held in dark prison cells, with only the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction, in winter time with the pressing cold, lying with sighs and grief on the ground without straw or coverings. In the middle of the night, to increase their terror, now one, now another are taken from cell to cell. Those whom they have killed in torture they secretly bury in the stable or in the garden, for fear that such horrible and savage deeds should reach the royal ears, since they had told and tell that the aforesaid brothers did not confess their crimes by violence but of their own accord.

Anyone who is defeated by the tortures and produces the lies which the attendants and Jacobins want, although they ought to be punished for lying even though they did not want to lie, is raised up to chambers where they are happily provided with everything they need, so that they will keep up the lie. They are continually warned with threats, or with rough or flattering words. What is more, a certain monk--or more truely a demoniac--ceaselessly runs through the chambers at any hour, day and night, tempting the brothers and extending warnings of what will happen to them. And if he discovers that anyone has repented of the said lies, he sends them straight back to the aforesaid afflictions and penuries.

What more is there to say? In short, I say that human tongue cannot express the punishments, afflictions, miseries, taunts, and dire kinds of tortures which have been suffered by the said innocents in the space of three months since the day of their arrest, because by day and night constant sobs and sighs have not ceased in their cells, nor have cries and gnashing of teeth ceased in their tortures. Is it amazing if they say what the torturer wants, since truth kills them and lies liberate them from death? The protection of the truth is certainly not a human attribute but a completely divine attribute; as many have miraculously shown divine courage. But those who are shattered with such terrors and scourges persist in pure truth, although the torture would stop if they lied. As for the rest, however, who are fearful and timid, it is not surprising if they say these things solely out of terror, since the punishment of one brings fear on all.

So pay attention, you wise men, and see the sorrow; there is no sorrow like this sorrow. Ah, God, what is this great error and blindness of hearts, such great madness and loss of senses, which has appeared without cause among Christians in our time? It is truly astounding and terrifying. O good Jesus, merciful Father, what kind of advice has led such a great prince to act like this--when he always used to rule and be ruled by Your Will? Didn't you adorn him with a special privilege above all the other princes of the world, so that there is no similar arm of the Church in the world, none so worthy of the Christian name? For what reason did you allow him to be given such crooked advice, when he is good in himself, just, merciful, and benevolent. Be vigilant, therefore, and pour Your Spirit of Counsel over him, uncover the ancient watercourse of the accustomed fount of justice, take away the bushel and place the lamp back on its candelabra, so that he may see the truth and recall the said brothers of the Temple to their old position and punish their false detractors, who have totally defamed the golden crown of honour, the visible sign of glorious sanctity, and the whole kingdom subject to him by bringing in such a grave scandal and sin, such that one cannot read of any such having been committed since the beginning of the world.

In fact it brings opprobrium and contempt not only on the kingdom itself but also on the holy Church and the whole Christian faith, for the whole world says and sees that this iniquity arose from the accusers' manifest cupidity alone, and nothing can conceal it. For who can believe that a free man, of whatever status or condition he might be, would seek to enter a religious order to the detriment and death of his soul? This would certainly be ridiculous and insane! It would seem absurd and absolutely incredible, or rather, impossible, that the noble brothers, clergy and burgesses of a religious order which has spread through the whole world should be ensnared by such crimes, when they have given themselves to the service of the glorious Virgin for the salvation of their souls, and constantly bear the cross out of reverence for the Crucified and in memory of His passion. Moreover, in ancient and modern times a great many people have left the order because they lacked firmness of purpose. After apostacizing in this way, they received many taunts from their parents and friends because their religious order had dismissed them. If such people knew about the blot in the order, why did they keep quiet, when they could have excused themselves by saying that they did not wish to remain among men involved in such wickedness? Instead, after tearful prayers and long insistence, the penitents received permission to return, and ate for a year and a day on the ground, fasting for six days on bread and water, and each Sunday they stripped down to the underpants and went up to the altar at solemn mass to receive discipline from the hand of the priest, and could not recover the habit nor the company of the brothers without first completing a year's penance humbly and devotedly. So why did such people return like dogs to their vomit, and receive such great penance in peril of their souls and disgrace to their bodies? Others, who sinned so far that according to the statues of the order they could not receive permission to return--why didn't they reveal this blot, if not that they could not tell such incredible and unheard-of lies?

What is more, I believe that around a hundred brothers of the said order are still in Egyptian prisons, who preferred to die there in penury in order to win life eternal, rather than to do anything against their faith; and if they wished to give up their faith, they would be honoured by the Saracens and have wives, horses and weapons and live among nobles; but they prefer to end in obedience to their religion rather than to lose eternal life for a transitory life.

So anyone wise may clearly recognise the innocence of the unjustly oppressed poor brothers of the Temple, who are denied both justice and a hearing. And since various voices of ignorant people who should not by rights be heard are crying that sentence should be given against them, the dictator of the present letter has endeavoured to tell you the truth. Therefore, may your circumspections' great assembled wisdom consider what ought to be done and how, with all obstacles of fear, hatred and love removed, having only God before your eyes, so that you may offer advice which will deserve to receive reward from God and praise from humanity.

Translated from the edition by C. R. Cheney, 'The Downfall of the Templars and a letter in their defence', in his Medieval Texts and Studies (1973) 322-327.



While we are at it, here is the Bull Vox in Excelso (1312) translated into English

Editor's Note: The Bull Vox in Excelso was the order given by Clement V to disband the order of the Temple. This historical document outlines the reasons for his decision based on false accusations against the order and a long drawn out trial.

Vox In Excelso
Clement, bishop, servant of the servants of God, for an everlasting record. A voice was heard from on high, of lamentation and bitter weeping, for the time is coming, indeed has come, when the Lord shall complain through his prophet: This house has aroused my anger and wrath, so that I will remove it from my sight because of the evil of its sons, for they have provoked me to anger turning their backs to me, not their faces, and setting up their idols in the house in which my name is invoked, to defile it. They have built the high places of Baal in order to consecrate their sons to idols and demons. They have sinned deeply as in the days of Gibeah. When I learnt of such deeds of horror, at the dread of such notorious scandal -- for who ever heard of such infamy? who ever saw the like? -- I fell down at hearing it, I was dismayed at seeing it, my heart grew embittered and darkness overwhelmed me. Hark, a voice of the people from the city! a voice from the temple! the voice of the Lord rendering recompense to his enemies. The prophet is compelled to exclaim: Give them, Lord, a barren womb and dry breasts. Their worthlessness has been revealed because of their malice. Throw them out of your house, and let their roots dry up; let them not bear fruit, and let not this house be any more a stumbling block of bitterness or a thorn to hurt.

Not slight is the fornication of this house, immolating its sons, giving them up and consecrating them to demons and not to God, to gods whom they did not know. Therefore this house will be desolate and in disgrace, cursed and uninhabited, thrown into confusion and levelled to the dust, lowly, forsaken, inaccessible, spurned by the anger of the Lord, whom it has despised; let it not be lived in but reduced to a wilderness. Let everyone be astonished at it and hiss at all its wounds. For the Lord did not choose the people on account of the place, but the place on account of the people. Therefore the very place of the temple was made to share in the punishment of the people, as the Lord proclaimed openly to Solomon when he built the temple for him, to Solomon who was filled with wisdom like a river: But if your sons turn aside from me, not following and honouring me but going instead after strange gods and worshipping them, then I will cut them off from before me and expel them from the land which I have given to them; and the temple which I have consecrated to my name I will cast out of my sight, and it will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples. Everyone passing by it will be astonished and shall hiss, and shall say, "Why has the Lord done thus to this temple and to this house?" And they will say : "Because they forsook the Lord their God who bought and redeemed them, and followed instead Baal and other gods, worshipping and serving them. Therefore the Lord has brought all this evil upon them".

Indeed a little while ago, about the time of our election as supreme pontiff before we came to Lyons for our coronation, and afterwards, both there and elsewhere, we received secret intimations against the master, preceptors and other brothers of the order of Knights Templar of Jerusalem and also against the order itself. These men had been posted in lands overseas for the defence of the patrimony of our lord Jesus Christ, and as special warriors of the catholic faith and outstanding defenders of the holy Land seemed to carry the chief burden of the said holy Land. For this reason the holy Roman church honoured these brothers and the order with her special support, armed them with the sign of the cross against Christ's enemies, paid them the highest tributes of her respect, and strengthened them with various exemptions and privileges; and they experienced in many and various ways her help and that of all faithful Christians with repeated gifts of property. Therefore it was against the lord Jesus Christ himself that they fell into the sin of impious apostasy, the abominable vice of idolatry, the deadly crime of the Sodomites, and various heresies. Yet it was not to be expected nor seemed credible that men so devout, who were outstanding often to the shedding of their blood for Christ and were seen repeatedly to expose their persons to the danger of death, who even more frequently gave great signs of their devotion both in divine worship and in fasting and other observances, should be so unmindful of their salvation as to commit such crimes. The order, moreover, had a good and holy beginning; it won the approval of the apostolic see. The rule, which is holy, reasonable and just, had the deserved sanction of this see. For all these reasons we were unwilling to lend our ears to insinuation and accusation against the Templars; we had been taught by our Lord's example and the words of canonical scripture.

Then came the intervention of our dear son in Christ, Philip, the illustrious king of France. The same crimes had been reported to him. He was not moved by greed. He had no intention of claiming or appropriating for himself anything from the Templars' property; rather, in his own kingdom he abandoned such claim and thereafter released entirely his hold on their goods. He was on fire with zeal for the orthodox faith, following in the well marked footsteps of his ancestors. He obtained as much information as he lawfully could. Then, in order to give us greater light on the subject, he sent us much valuable information through his envoys and letters. The scandal against the Templars themselves and their order in reference to the crimes already mentioned increased. There was even one of the knights, a man of noble blood and of no small reputation in the order, who testified secretly under oath in our presence, that at his reception the knight who received him suggested that he deny Christ, which he did, in the presence of certain other knights of the Temple, he furthermore spat on the cross held out to him by this knight who received him. He also said that he had seen the grand master, who is still alive, receive a certain knight in a chapter of the order held overseas. The reception took place in the same way, namely with the denial of Christ and the spitting on the cross, with quite two hundred brothers of the order being present. The witness also affirmed that he heard it said that this was the customary manner of receiving new members: at the suggestion of the person receiving the profession or his delegate, the person making profession denied Jesus Christ, and in abuse of Christ crucified spat upon the cross held out to him, and the two committed other unlawful acts contrary to christian morality, as the witness himself then confessed in our presence.

We were duty-bound by our office to pay heed to the din of such grave and repeated accusations. When at last there came a general hue and cry with the clamorous denunciations of the said king and of the dukes, counts, barons, other nobles, clergy and people of the kingdom of France, reaching us both directly and through agents and officials, we heard a doleful tale: that the master, preceptors and other brothers of the order as well as the order itself had been involved in these and other crimes. This seemed to be proved by many confessions, attestations and depositions of the master, of the visitor of France, and of many preceptors and brothers of the order, in the presence of many prelates and the inquisitor of heresy. These depositions were made in the kingdom of France with our authorisation, edited as public documents and shown to us and our brothers. Besides, the rumour and clamour had grown to such insistence that the hostility against both the order itself and the individual members of it could not be ignored without grave scandal nor be tolerated without imminent danger to the faith. Since we though unworthy, represent Christ on earth, we considered that we ought, following in his footsteps, to hold an inquiry. We called to our presence many of the preceptors, priests, knights and other brothers of the order who were of no small reputation. They took an oath, they were adjured urgently by the Father, Son and holy Spirit; we demanded, in virtue of holy obedience, invoking the divine judgment with the menace of an eternal malediction, that they tell the pure and simple truth. We pointed out that they were now in a safe and suitable place where they had nothing to fear in spite of the confessions they had made before others. We wished those confessions to be without prejudice to them. In this way we made our interrogation and examined as many as seventy-two, many of our brothers being present and following the proceedings attentively. We had the confessions taken down by notary and recorded as authentic documents in our presence and that of our brothers. After some days we had these confessions read in consistory in the presence of the knights concerned. Each was read a version in his own language; they stood by their confessions, expressly and spontaneously approving them as they had been read out.

After this, intending to make a personal inquiry with the grand master, the visitor of France and the principal preceptors of the order, we commanded that the grand master, the visitor of France and the chief preceptors of Outremer, Normandy, Aquitaine and Poitou be presented to us while we were at Poitiers. Some of them, however, were ill at the time and could not ride a horse nor conveniently be brought to our presence. We wished to know the truth of the whole matter and whether their confessions and depositions, which were said to have been made in the presence of the inquisitor of heresy in the kingdom of France and witnessed by certain public notaries and many other good men, and which were produced in public and shown to us and our brothers by the inquisitor, were true. We empowered and commanded our beloved sons Berengar, cardinal, then with the title of Nereus and Achilleus, now bishop of Frascati, and Stephen, cardinal priest with the title of saint Cyriacus at the Baths, and Landulf, cardinal deacon with the title of saint Angelo, in whose prudence, experience and loyalty we have the fullest confidence, to make a careful investigation with the grand master, visitor and preceptors, concerning the truth of the accusations against them and individual persons of the order and against the order itself. If there was evidence, it was to be brought to us; the confessions and depositions were to be taken down in writing by a public notary and presented to us. The cardinals were to grant absolution from the sentence of excommunication, according to the form of the church, to the master, visitor and preceptors -- a sentence incurred if the accusations were true -- provided the accused humbly and devoutly requested absolution, as they ought to do.

The cardinals went to see the grand master, the visitor and the preceptors personally and explained the reason for their visit. Since these men and other Templars resident in the kingdom of France had been handed over to us because they would freely and without fear of anyone reveal the truth sincerely to the cardinals, the cardinals by our apostolic authority enjoined on them this duty of telling the truth. The master, the visitor and the preceptors of Normandy, Outremer, Aquitaine and Poitou, in the presence of the three cardinals, four notaries and many other men of good repute, took an oath on the holy gospels that they would tell the truth, plainly and fully. They deposed one by one, in the cardinals' presence, freely and spontaneously, without any compulsion or fear. They confessed among other things that they had denied Christ and spat upon the cross at their reception into the order of the Temple. Some of them added that they themselves had received many brothers using the same rite, namely with the denial of Christ and the spitting on the cross. There were even some who confessed certain other horrible crimes and immoral deeds, we say nothing more of these at present. The knights confessed also that the content of their confessions and depositions made a little while ago before the inquisitor was true. These confessions and depositions of the grand master, visitor and preceptors were edited as a public document by four notaries, the master and the others being present and also certain men of good repute. After some days, the confessions were read to the accused on the orders and in the presence of the cardinals; each knight received an account in his own language. They persisted in their confessions and approved them, expressly and spontaneously, as they had been read out to them. After these confessions and depositions, they asked from the cardinals absolution from the excommunication incurred by the above crimes; humbly and devoutly, on bended knee, with hands joined, they made their petition with many tears. Since the church never shuts her heart to the sinner who returns, the cardinals granted absolution by our authority in the customary form of the church to the master, visitor and preceptors on abjuration of their heresy. On their return to our presence, the cardinals presented to us the confessions and depositions of the master, visitor and preceptors in the form of a public document, as has been said. They also gave us a report on their dealings with these knights.

From these confessions, depositions and report we find that the master, the visitor and the preceptors of Outremer, Normandy, Aquitaine and Poitou have often committed grave offences, although some have erred less frequently than others. We considered that such dreadful crimes could not and should not go unpunished without insult to almighty God and to every Catholic. We decided on the advice of our brothers to hold an enquiry into the above crimes and transgressions. This would be carried out through the local ordinaries and other wise, trustworthy men delegated by us in the case of individual members of the order; and through certain prudent persons of our considered choice in the case of the order as a whole. After this, investigations were made both by the ordinaries and by our delegates into the allegations against individual members, and by the inquisitors appointed by us into those against the order itself, in every part of the world where the brothers of the order have usually lived. Once made and sent to us for examination, these investigations were very carefully read and examined, some by us and our brothers, cardinals of the holy Roman church others by many very learned, prudent, trustworthy and God-fearing men, zealous for and well-trained in the catholic faith, some being prelates and others not. This took place at Malaucene in the diocese of Vaison.

Later we came to Vienne where there were assembled already very many patriarchs, archbishops, selected bishops, exempt and non-exempt abbots, other prelates of churches, and procurators of absent prelates and of chapters, all present for the council we had summoned. In the first session we explained to them our reasons for calling the council. After this, because it was difficult indeed almost impossible, for the cardinals and all the prelates and procurators gathered for the council to meet in our presence in order to discuss how to proceed in the matter of the Templars, we gave orders as follows. Certain patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, exempt and non-exempt abbots, other prelates of churches, and procurators from all parts of Christendom, of every language nation and region, were concordantly chosen out of all the prelates and procurators at the council. The choice was made from those believed to be among the more skilful, discreet and apt for consultation on such an important affair and for discussing it with us and the above-mentioned cardinals. After this we had the attestations received during the inquiry read publicly in the presence of the prelates and procurators. This reading went on during several days, for as long as they wished to listen, in the place assigned for the council, namely the cathedral church. Afterwards the said attestations and the summaries made from them were considered and examined, not in a perfunctory manner but with great care, by many of our venerable brethren, by the patriarch of Aquileia, by archbishops and bishops of the present sacred council who were specially chosen and delegated for the purpose, and by those whom the whole council had chosen very carefully and earnestly.

We convoked therefore the said cardinals, patriarchs, archbishops and bishops, the exempt and non-exempt abbots, and the other prelates and procurators elected by the council to consider this affair, and we asked them, in the course of a secret consultation in our presence, how we should proceed, taking special account of the fact that certain Templars were presenting themselves in defence of their order. The greater part of the cardinals and nearly the whole council, that is those who were elected by the whole council and were representing the whole council on this question, in short the great majority, indeed four-fifths among every nation taking part, were firmly convinced, and the said prelates and procurators advised accordingly, that the order should be given an opportunity to defend itself and that it could not be condemned, on the basis of the proof provided thus far, for the heresies that had been the subject of the inquiry, without offence to God and injustice. Certain others on the contrary said that the brothers should not be allowed to make a defence of their order and that we should not give permission for such a defence, for if a defence were allowed or given there would be danger to a settlement of the affair and no small prejudice to the interests of the holy Land. There would be dispute, delay and putting off a decision, many different reasons were mentioned. Indeed although legal process against the order up to now does not permit its canonical condemnation as heretical by definitive sentence, the good name of the order has been largely taken away by the heresies attributed to it. Moreover, an almost indefinite number of individual members, among whom are the grand master the visitor of France and the chief preceptors, have been convicted of such heresies, errors and crimes through their spontaneous confessions. These confessions render the order very suspect, and the infamy and suspicion render it detestable to the holy church of God, to her prelates, to kings and other rulers, and to Catholics in general. It is also believed in all probability that from now on there will be found no good person who wishes to enter the order, and so it will be made useless to the church of God and the carrying on of the undertaking to the holy Land, for which service the knights had been destined. Furthermore, the putting off of a settlement or arrangement of this affair of the Templars, for which we had set ourselves a final decision or sentence to be promulgated in the present council, would lead in all probability to the total loss, destruction and dilapidation of the Templars' property. This has for long been given, bequeathed and granted by the faithful for the aid of the holy Land and to oppose the enemies of the christian faith.

There were therefore two opinions: some said that sentence should immediately be pronounced, condemning the order for the alleged crimes, and others objected that from the proceedings taken up to now the sentence of condemnation against the order could not justly be passed. After long and mature deliberation, having in mind God alone and the good of the holy Land without turning aside to right or to left, we elected to proceed by way of provision and ordinance, in this way scandal will be removed, perils avoided and property saved for the help of the holy Land. We have taken into account the disgrace, suspicion, vociferous reports and other attacks mentioned above against the order, also the secret reception into the order, and the divergence of many of the brothers from the general behaviour, way of life and morals of other Christians. We have noted here especially that when new members are received, they are made to swear not to reveal the manner of their reception to anyone and not to leave the order; this creates an unfavourable presumption. We observe in addition that the above have given rise to grave scandal against the order, scandal impossible to allay as long as the order continues to exist. We note also the danger to faith and to souls, the many horrible misdeeds of so many brothers of the order, and many other just reasons and causes, moving us to the following decision.

The majority of the cardinals and of those elected by the council, a proportion of more than four-fifths, have thought it better, more expedient and advantageous for God's honour and for the preservation of the christian faith, also for the aid of the holy Land and many other valid reasons, to suppress the order by way of ordinance and provision of the apostolic see, assigning the property to the use for which it was intended. Provision is also to be made for the members of the order who are still alive. This way has been found preferable to that of safeguarding the right of defence with the consequent postponement of judgment on the order. We observe also that in other cases the Roman church has suppressed other important orders for reasons of far less gravity than those mentioned above, with no fault on the part of the brethren. Therefore, with a sad heart, not by definitive sentence, but by apostolic provision or ordinance, we suppress, with the approval of the sacred council, the order of Templars, and its rule, habit and name, by an inviolable and perpetual decree, and we entirely forbid that anyone from now on enter the order, or receive or wear its habit, or presume to behave as a Templar. If anyone acts otherwise, he incurs automatic excommunication. Furthermore, we reserve the persons and property for our disposition and that of the apostolic see. We intend with divine grace, before the end of the present sacred council, to make this disposition to the honour of God the exaltation of the christian faith and the welfare of the holy Land. We strictly forbid anyone, of whatever state or condition, to interfere in any way in this matter of the persons and property of the Templars. We forbid any action concerning them which would prejudice our arrangements and dispositions, or any innovation or tampering. We decree that from now on any attempt of this kind is null and void, whether it be made knowingly or in ignorance. Through this decree, however, we do not wish to derogate from any processes made or to be made concerning individual Templars by diocesan bishops and provincial councils, in conformity with what we have ordained at other times. Let nobody therefore ... If anyone ...

Given at Vienne on 22 March in the seventh year of our pontificate.



This may be of some interest to our friends, I hope.
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
I'm sorry I just HAVE to do this.....





PLL

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
I am not wishing to be a bother, my frined, but coud you also post the completed untranslated text as well, if it is possible to do so? I am assuming that the original document was written in either Latin or French neither of which poses a serious problem for me, my friend. I am getting close...
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

No I cannot post the Latin text amigo, sorry. Actually with your access to Vatican archives, you almost certainly have many more documents available to you than I could ever hope to find. Perhaps if you should have the time (and inclination) you could turn up more evidence - surely the Vatican had people who were keeping watch on the Templars, right? Perhaps one or more of them made written reports, which would be very helpful either in proving or disproving these Templar legends?
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
I have about as much clout at the Vatican as anyone on this forum does my friend. The Templar trial documents which are ACCESSIBLE at the Vatican librbary are sparse in number, however I feel there exists many more documents relating to the Templar trilas housed in that *other* section of the Vatican library. Actually, getting information from the Vatican archives is not all that difficult. All you need to do is to ask the right person for the right document and PRESTO! The trick is knowing WHOM to ask and WHICH document you wish to view, as there exists no catalog index.

And how do you know the document was written in Latin? It could very easily have been written in French, which would have been even better. No matter. If the heading of the document is an accurate translation, then the document would seem to have been written in the 15th to 16th century.

The key is the address. The writer addressed the letter:
To the honourable doctors and scholars of the university of Paris,
OK, nothing suspicious about that! Or, is there? It seems that the University of Paris was not traditionally called that by locals until the Reformation period. The University has always been traditionally called Le Collège de Sorbonne after it's founder, Robert de Sorbon. Only foreigners refer to the College of Sorbonne as the University of Paris and this remains true even today, my friend.

If the writer had been intimately familiar with the college then he would have addressed the letter to the doctors and scholars of the College of Sorbonne instead of the University of Paris. The reason why I know this is because the College of Sorbonne happens to be one of the four medieval universities in Western Europe and as such it has produced a host renowned theologians, scientists, doctors, and other academians.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

I must sign off for a bit, please do continue amigos. (Lamar I will try to answer your questions when I return.)
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Well, maybe it was just that.... A foreigner translating a document into English... So to the foreigner, it was known as the University of Paris. Or since it was being translated to English he used the " University of Paris " because they would have better understood where he was talking about

PLL

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

After a little more research into "Beauseant", I found this:

[Finally, we come to the meaning of the word "beauseant." It is a French word that is a combination of two, beau and seant. The modern-day meaning of beau is "beautiful." However, if we research the meaning of the word as it was used during the medieval period, we discover that it was more akin to the idea of "glorious" or "magnificent."

The word seant signifies the state of becoming. Hence, the word "beauseant" as used by our Templar knights
is best interpreted as the admonition: "Be glorious"-alluding, no doubt, to the expectation that they conduct themselves bravely and fiercely in battle and be merciful and magnanimous in victory.]

Makes sense to me, but I don't speak French. Just thought it was interesting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,

Lamar wrote

I have about as much clout at the Vatican as anyone on this forum does my friend.

Well "clout" may be a different thing from "access". There are NO Vatican records available in SW S Dakota for example. Your access to the archives is something I am quite jealous of!

Lamar also wrote

And how do you know the document was written in Latin?

I am relatively certain the the Bull Vox in Excelso is originally composed in Latin, as for the letter I do not know but concluded it was more likely Latin vs French, if addressed to the persons it lists. I would suggest checking the Fordham U site, the original text may be available
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html

Lamar also wrote

The key is the address. The writer addressed the letter:
To the honourable doctors and scholars of the university of Paris,
OK, nothing suspicious about that! Or, is there? It seems that the University of Paris was not traditionally called that by locals until the Reformation period. The University has always been traditionally called Le Collège de Sorbonne after it's founder, Robert de Sorbon. Only foreigners refer to the College of Sorbonne as the University of Paris and this remains true even today, my friend.

If the writer had been intimately familiar with the college then he would have addressed the letter to the doctors and scholars of the College of Sorbonne instead of the University of Paris. The reason why I know this is because the College of Sorbonne happens to be one of the four medieval universities in Western Europe and as such it has produced a host renowned theologians, scientists, doctors, and other academians.

Hmm can we say with ANY certainty, just how the University of Paris would have been addressed in 1312? We cannot even judge by any number of documents from the same period, for unless there were some way to show that the very notion of referring to it by that name was somehow "impossible" there is no way to be sure. As you so happily pointed out, only "foreigners" might use that name, well is it not then likely, even probable, that the author of this letter WAS a foreigner to Paris?

I do have to wonder if you would approach Vatican documents with equal skepticism, and equal readiness to assail any and every possible point found within them as "suspect" or "unreliable", especially considering that they were in fact written by human beings and we humans have a most distressing habit of making errors. As it stands we now have a number of points you raised earlier to be controverted, of course being a biased party you would view any document that disagrees with your proposed version with the highest suspicion, which may well be un-justified. We could view any and all Vatican sources with equal or even greater suspicion, based on a desire for the Vatican not to appear as the villain in those terrible times, even if acting mistakenly. You have stated that no more than 9 Templars were executed, another source (the one you challenge) claims not less than 36 succumbed to the horrific treatments they received in Paris. You have stated that at no time was torture used, and that all of the "confessions" were completely voluntary on the part of the accused Templars, while this other source states quite the opposite, that ALL of the Templars were terribly tortured and only under the greatest distress were they forced to make "confessions". Remember that the trials were ordered by Philip the king of Spain to start with, and we know that Philip had strong motives to "convict" the Templars even if wholly wrongful in doing so. Philip may have gone to some effort to accumulate enough "evidence" so as to convince the Pope of the Templars' evils, as seems to be the version we find in the anonymous letter to the University of Paris.

Pegleglooker wrote

Well, maybe it was just that.... A foreigner translating a document into English... So to the foreigner, it was known as the University of Paris. Or since it was being translated to English he used the " University of Paris " because they would have better understood where he was talking about

Exactly amigo - this IS a translation we have to work with, NOT the original, so we are speculating when we try to dissect the wording etymologically.

Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

hehehehehehehehehe Oros got my back

PLL

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning ORO: You posted --> Hmm amigo then what are we to make of your admitted age on your profile?

A) Do you really expect the truth from an avowed, dissipated, tropical tramp?


You also posted --> Sheesh sorry for the "butter application"

A) Keep it up, yer earning a ticket to Tayopa hehehehehheh

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose' wrote

Do you really expect the truth from an avowed, dissipated, tropical tramp?

Of course, why should we expect anything less than the un-varnished from an admitted Saint?
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA compadres,
I have a quite a bit more to add, which seems to support the allegations of the Templars being tortured, of quite a number of deaths rather than 'only' nine, that some Templars in fact rescinded their "confessions" when they were free to do so. Here are some extracts: <VERY long post, my apologies>

Lamar wrote

Besides, had the Templars went to Switerland they would have either have had to joined the Teutonic Knights or been killed by them. You know how those Germans are my friend. There is no middle ground with them.

Our amigo Lamar held that it would have been near suicidal for any Templars to have fled to Switzerland, as they would have then either been forced to join the Teutonic Order, or have been killed outright by the Teutons, I find this theory not supported by the evidence. A Templar stated under oath, quote
_________________________________________________
Brother Richard de Peitevyn, a member of forty-two years’ standing, deposes that, in addition to the previous oaths, he swore that he would never bear arms against Christians except in his own defence, or in defence of the rights of the order; he declares that the enormities mentioned in the articles were never heard of before Bernard Peletin brought letters to his lord, the king of England, against the Templars.


and
Among other things, the pope proposed an union between the Templars and Hospitallers, and the Grand Master handed in his objections to the proposition. He says, that after the fall of Acre, the people of Italy and of other christian nations clamoured loudly against Pope Nicholas, for having afforded no succour to the besieged, and that he, by way of screening himself, had laid all the blame of the loss of the place on pretended dissensions between the Templars and Hospitaliers, and projected an union between them. The Grand Master declares that there had been no dissensions between the orders prejudicial to the christian cause; that there was nothing more than a spirit of rivalry and emulation, the destruction of which would be highly injurious to the Christians, and advantageous to the Saracens; for if the Hospitaliers at any time performed a brilliant feat of arms against the infidels, the Templars would never rest quiet until they had done the same or better, and e converso. So also if the Templars made a great shipment of brethren, horses, and other beasts across sea to Palestine, the Hospitaliers would always do the like or more. He at the same time positively declares, that a member of one order had never been known to raise his hand against a member of the other. * The Grand Master complains that the reverence and respect of the christian nations for both orders had undeservedly diminished, that everything was changed, and that most persons were then more ready to take from them than to give to them, and that many powerful men, both clergy and laity, brought continual mischiefs upon the fraternities.

_________________________________________________

An examination of the areas under the control of the Teutonic Order...

and we can clearly see that the Teutonic Knights did not apparently have control of any area within Switzerland or even bordering upon it. So there would have been no hostile conflict between Teutons and Templars in Switzerland, should any Templars have entered that area to escape the repression in France.
_________________________________________________

Lamar asserted that the Templars' confessions were not obtained via torture and/or duress, which is at odds with this passage, quote
_________________________________________________
During twelve days of severe imprisonment, the Templars remained constant in the denial of the horrible crimes imputed to the fraternity. The king's promises of pardon extracted from them no confession of guilt, and they were therefore handed over to the tender mercies of the brethren of St. Dominic, who were the most refined and expert torturers of the day.

On the 19th of October, the grand inquisitor proceeded with his myrmidons to the Temple at Paris, and a hundred and forty Templars were one after another put to the torture. Days and weeks were consumed in the examination, and thirty-six Templars perished in the hands of their tormentors, maintaining with unshaken constancy to the very last the entire innocence of their order. Many of them lost the use of their feet from the application of the torture of fire, which was inflicted in the following manner: their legs were fastened in an iron frame, and the soles of their feet were greased over with fat or butter; they were then placed before the fire, and a screen was drawn backwards and forwards, so as to moderate and regulate the heat. Such was the agony produced by this roasting operation, that the victims often went raving mad.

Brother Bernarde de Vado, on subsequently revoking a confession of guilt, wrung from him by this description of torment, says to the commissary of police, before whom he was brought to be examined, "They held me so long before a fierce fire that the flesh was burnt off my heels, two pieces of bone came away, which I present to you." * Another Templar, on publicly revoking his confession, declared that four of his teeth were drawn out, and that he confessed himself guilty to save the remainder. † Others of the fraternity deposed to the infliction on them of the most revolting and indecent torments; ‡ and, in addition to all this, it appears that forged letters from the Grand Master were shown to the prisoners, exhorting them to confess themselves guilty. Many of the Templars were accordingly compelled to acknowledge whatever was required of them, and to plead guilty to the commission of crimes which in the previous interrogatories they had positively denied


_________________________________________________

In reply to Lamar's assertion that the Templars were in fact guilty of all of the accusations flung at them, quote
_________________________________________________

Brother William de la More, and thirty more of his brethren, being interrogated before the inquisitors, positively denied the guilt of the order, and affirmed that the Templars who had made the confessions alluded to in France had lied.

Between the 25th of October and the 17th of November, <AD 1309>thirty-three knights, chaplains, and serving brothers, were examined, all of whom positively denied every article imputing crime or infidelity to their order

Master William le Dorturer, notary public, declared that the Templars rose at midnight, and held their chapters before dawn, and he thought that the mystery and secrecy of the receptions were owing to a bad rather than a good motive, but declared that he had never observed that they had acquired, or had attempted to acquire, anything unjustly. Master Gilbert de Bruere, clerk, said that he had never suspected them of anything worse than an excessive correction of the brethren. William Lambert, formerly a "messenger of the Temple," (nuntius Templi,) knew nothing bad of the Templars, and thought them perfectly innocent of all the matters alluded to. And Richard de Barton, priest, and Radulph de Rayndon, an old man, both declared that they knew nothing of the order, or of the members of it, but what was good and honourable.

On the 19th and 20th of November, <A.D. 1309.> seven lay witnesses, unconnected with the order, were examined before the inquisitors in the chapel of the monastery of the Holy Trinity, but could prove nothing against the Templars that was criminal or tainted with heresy.


_________________________________________________

Lamar asserted that the Templars certainly never would have fought at Bannockburn on the side of the Scots in 1314, example Lamar wrote

all the Roman Catholic military Orders swore allegiance to one man, and that man was the sitting Pope. This means that if a Holy military Order such as the Templars or Hospitallers were to engage a sovereign Lord on the battlefield without the express consent of the Pope, that would treason and therefore would be grounds for punishment by death. Likewise, a Holy military order could not take up arms at the behest of a sovereign Lord against any enemy unless that enemy happened to be an enemy of the church, like the Moors, without the express prior approval of the sitting Pope.

Hmm well then how do we explain this?
_________________________________________________
As the enthusiasm, too, in favour of the holy war diminished, large numbers of the Templars remained at home in their western preceptories, and took an active part in the politics of Europe. They interfered in the quarrels of christian princes, and even drew their swords against their fellow-Christians. Thus we find the members of the order taking part in the war between the houses of Anjou and Aragon, and aiding the king of England in his warfare against the king of Scotland. In the battle of Falkirk, fought on the 22nd of July, A.D. 1298, seven years after the fall of Acre, perished both the Master of the Temple at London, and his vicegerent the Preceptor of Scotland.
_________________________________________________

My source for much of this is found within the interesting History of the Knights Templars, by Charles Addison, 1842, includes many extracts and citations from contemporary accounts in Latin, Norman French, and Early Modern English, seems very well researched. It is online at

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/hkt/index.htm

So it appears that many of the assertions of our amigo Lamar conflict with what we find in other sources. These differences do not PROVE that any or all of the various Templar theories are true, rather there are just enough bits of evidence to suggest that some may be POSSIBLY true.

My apologies again for the very lengthy post, I hope I have not tested your patience overmuch.
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey Oro,
YOUUUUUUUU GO BOOOOYYYYYYY !!!!!!!

I can't think of the movie this quote is from but " I love it when a plan comes together "

PLL

 

[Smithbrown]

How very intriguing. In one of the earlier exchanges it was stated that since there are so few records of the period, this allows for the Templars to have taken part in Bannockburn and for it to pass unrecorded. But here are references to the Battle of Falkirk, almost twenty years earlier, where the names of the two Templars are recorded. Fighting for the English. What does your source say about that period?
Smithbrown

 

[Oroblanco]

Smithbrown wrote

In one of the earlier exchanges it was stated that since there are so few records of the period, this allows for the Templars to have taken part in Bannockburn and for it to pass unrecorded. But here are references to the Battle of Falkirk, almost twenty years earlier, where the names of the two Templars are recorded. Fighting for the English. What does your source say about that period?

I have very limited sources for that period, and would not assume from the information we have about Templars dying at Falkirk, that automatically means we must have very precise and full records of this period. In fact we have only the two named Templars at Falkirk, if they had not been killed, it is quite possible we would never have had any documentation of their involvement. This is not my 'area' at all, in fact I was surprised to learn of William Wallace's being captured in the same time period, along with some mention that Wallace MAY have been in touch with the Pope to request assistance. I do find it interesting that we have Templars fighting for the English, which would at least suggest that they had "taken sides" against the Scots, but I could be assuming too much to conclude that any kind of permanent alliance had been formed.
Oroblanco

 

[Tratt]

This discussion was wrapped up years ago but it seems to be most comprehensive on templars so I'll add a question here if it's ok: can someone suggest names of people who likely used to know the location(s) of templar treasure before and especially after the 'great escape' of templars that allegedly followed the trial and execution. I'm not particularly concerned with whether there was a trial in the first place nor any other allegation that has been taken for granted among academia or other researchers - only the names, their profession or similar to identify them better, and the time periods (for example 1210-1290) they lived in respectively, approximate years is good enough.

To whoever wants to bother himself...

I can guess the first pre-execution name would be Molay, the grand master or whatever. But who made the decisions on how to divide what was left and where to escape, when many leaders (allegedly) were killed? If they restored a chain of command from the highest "officers" that did survive, those would be ones that initially knew where the stuff was taken. But I don't know names nor nothing about who would have known about that 100+ years after that. After 100 years I don't know if there still was a single- or a few big stashes of treasure somewhere instead of it being spent and/or scattered all over Europe for example. When that happens, it's likely gone.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

This discussion was wrapped up years ago but it seems to be most comprehensive on templars so I'll add a question here if it's ok: can someone suggest names of people who likely used to know the location(s) of templar treasure before and especially after the 'great escape' of templars that allegedly followed the trial and execution. I'm not particularly concerned with whether there was a trial in the first place nor any other allegation that has been taken for granted among academia or other researchers - only the names, their profession or similar to identify them better, and the time periods (for example 1210-1290) they lived in respectively, approximate years is good enough.

To whoever wants to bother himself...

I can guess the first pre-execution name would be Molay, the grand master or whatever. But who made the decisions on how to divide what was left and where to escape, when many leaders (allegedly) were killed? If they restored a chain of command from the highest "officers" that did survive, those would be ones that initially knew where the stuff was taken. But I don't know names nor nothing about who would have known about that 100+ years after that. After 100 years I don't know if there still was a single- or a few big stashes of treasure somewhere instead of it being spent and/or scattered all over Europe for example. When that happens, it's likely gone.

I think the King of France got a bit of it; the POPE got the rest. DeMolay & HIS KT probably made decisions as to where to "spread out", prior to D's death. I think Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland has good "clues".