HOLA mi compadres!
This will be a very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence - anyone who prefers not to have to wade through long posts, simply skip ahead.
As the weather here in Dakota took a turn for the '
ugly' today (the high hit a whopping 8 above, with a nice north wind to blow the stink off har har
) so I find I have time to indulge in our discussion. I found some rather interesting tidbits, which appear to be at odds with some of the statements our friend Lamar has posted thus far. For example, Lamar stated that the Templars were GUILTY of the crimes they had been accused of. Well a document that dates to the period controverts this assertion, which I will post an extract of below. Lamar also asserted that not more than NINE Templars actually were killed in the inquisition into their 'crimes'. This same source I will post controverts this statement. Lamar also asserted that NONE of the Templars were EVER tortured, and again according to this ancient document, translation by Helen J. Nicholson, controverts this assertion most strongly. Here is an extract:
All this is clearly apparent from the unheard of and inquitious proceedings issued against the Templars, which contain no justice but rather savage tyranny, since they were arrested without warning, suddenly without right or judgement being made, shamefully and dishonourably incarcerated with destructive rage, afflicted with taunts, the gravest threats, and various sorts of torture, compelled to die or produce absurd lies which they knew nothing about, wrongly given into the hands of their enemies, who force them through those torments to read out a foul, filthy and lying list which cannot be conceived by human ears and should not enter the human heart. But when the brothers refuse to produce these lies, although they know absolutely nothing about them, the torments of the attendants who press them daily force them to speak the lies, saying that they must recite them before the Jacobins and assert that they are true if they wish to preserve their lives and obtain the king's plentiful grace.
But many of them, choosing to serve God rather than Mammon, have so strongly embraced truth, that thirty-six of them in the Paris house alone, besides an infinite number of others who have been similarly treated throughout various parts of the kingdom, have passed through these torments like athletes of Christ with the martyr's palm to the Lord and attained the celestial kingdom. Of the rest, many, belted with divine virtue, have been destroyed by the tortures of the aforementioned attendants and left for dead, only half-alive. Like the strongest of warriors they have always held to the word of truth, saying that the brothers of the Temple promise four things when they enter the order, i.e., obedience, chastity, poverty, and that they will expend all their strength in the service of the Holy Land. They are received with an honourable kiss of peace; they take the Lord's Cross together with the habit, custom and rule from the Roman Church and the Holy Fathers and they are taught to keep them safely. The same brothers of the said order report, assert and repeat this on their own oath again and again.
But the said attendants and the Jacobin friars, masters--or rather, assassins--of great iniquity, block their ears like adders do against this truth, which they are unable to understand, and twist it like venomous serpents do, since in their malice they desire to get the result they hope for; because they are deceived by their ardent hatred and blinded by their savage cupidity. They hope to enrich their monks and associates at the expense of others, to get fat on the Templars' goods, so that they will be able to gain a part of their revenues forever. So they order that the Templars who tell the truth should be tortured fiercely for so long until either they die from the punishment or they are forced to suppress the truth and lie that they denied God, despised Christ's Cross and produce the other worthless things which not only should not be done but not even described.
What is more, if they do not say these things, not only before but even after torture, they are always held in dark prison cells, with only the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction, in winter time with the pressing cold, lying with sighs and grief on the ground without straw or coverings. In the middle of the night, to increase their terror, now one, now another are taken from cell to cell. Those whom they have killed in torture they secretly bury in the stable or in the garden, for fear that such horrible and savage deeds should reach the royal ears, since they had told and tell that the aforesaid brothers did not confess their crimes by violence but of their own accord.
Anyone who is defeated by the tortures and produces the lies which the attendants and Jacobins want, although they ought to be punished for lying even though they did not want to lie, is raised up to chambers where they are happily provided with everything they need, so that they will keep up the lie. They are continually warned with threats, or with rough or flattering words. What is more, a certain monk--or more truely a demoniac--ceaselessly runs through the chambers at any hour, day and night, tempting the brothers and extending warnings of what will happen to them. And if he discovers that anyone has repented of the said lies, he sends them straight back to the aforesaid afflictions and penuries.
<This was written early in 1308, by an anonymous writer close to the Templars. Dr. Helen Nicholson teaches at the University of Wales-Cardiff College.>
Are we to simply ignore the charges made in this letter, that the many terrible crimes the Templars were accused of had no basis in fact, that they were horribly tortured, and that no less than 36 of their number succumbed to the treatment in Paris alone? What do you say about this Lamar?
Lamar also stated it was a matter of simple math, and produced figures on exactly how many Templars were in England and Scotland, and admits that SOME of them cannot be accounted for. Where do you obtain your figures on how many Templars were in the aforementioned countries? How many Templars would it take, to spirit away a holy relic like the Holy Grail? Wouldn't a SINGLE knight with his retainer(s) be quite sufficient, so long as their holy cargo were kept from public knowledge? Most so-caled "myths" have a basis in fact, so we should withhold judgement concerning the various stories surrounding the Templars and their treasures, until they can be proven one way or the other.
I also found a letter from the Pope, written in December of 1312 shortly after the bull of suppression of the Templars, that sheds light on just where a fair number of the Templar knights were expected to go, here is an extract
For an everlasting record. Not long ago, under the Lord's providence, we held a general council at Vienne, at which we suppressed the former order of the Knights Templar of Jerusalem. We granted, attached and joined the Templar possessions, with the approval of the sacred council, to the order of the Hospital of saint John of Jerusalem, for the help of the holy Land; with the exception, for certain reasons, of their property lying in the kingdoms and lands of our beloved sons in Christ, the illustrious kings ....of Castile, ....of Aragon, ....of Portugal and ....of Majorca, outside the kingdom of France, which we reserved for our disposal and that of the apostolic see until we made other arrangements.
<snip>
We wish that the transfer of property of the former order of the Temple to the order of the Hospital may, by our provision, be of advantage to the holy Land. We also wish that quarrels, scandals and discord be prevented between prelates and other clergy on the one hand and the brothers of the order on the other; that lasting concord be established between them; and that the order and its members be reformed, if and as this seems good. We have therefore made three special provisions regarding the order of the Hospital.
The first has to do with the holy Land. We shall have an exact and careful enquiry made into the past and present possessions of the order of the Hospital and their exact annual value. We shall wish to know fully the annual value of each old and new house of the order, and how much this represents each year in terms of assistance to the holy Land. On completion of this valuation, and taking into account the necessary local expenditure, we shall oblige the order to maintain continuously in the holy Land a certain number of brothers and knights. These brothers and knights are to labour effectively and strive to win the holy Land and keep it, as far as God grants. We shall arrange and provide that very few brothers of the order remain on this side of the sea. These shall be only those required to govern the houses of the order and those who are old, sick or unfit for war. The young and the strong, who are able to fight, shall be required to go and stay overseas so that the holy Land may have its needs met. The order will thus pursue the purpose for which it was instituted, as is only right and fitting.
<snip>
We cannot impose on our successors the continuation of the above policy. Yet, in order to make this course of action possible and easier for them, we shall have the annual value of each house registered exactly in the Roman curia, and also the service which it will be able to provide each year for the holy Land, and the fixed number of brothers and knights required to stay overseas.
<Given at Avignon on 31 December in the eighth year of our pontificate.>
At first glance
this would appear to be irrelevant, only touching on the Templars in a peripheral way, however as Lamar pointed out, a large number of the Templars did join the Hospitallers, and thus would be among those referred to in this Papal letter,
if able to fight they would most likely be sent overseas to the Holy land.
Hmm..."
overseas". It is easy to conclude that
the reference to "overseas" must mean the Holy Land, but this is not absolutely specified, only hinted at. Is it not possible that perhaps one or more Templars or ex-Templars were to be sent "overseas" and NOT to the Holy Land?
I welcome your comments and replies, thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
