Treasures of the Knights Templar - Conspiracy Theories!

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cactus, you posted -->

I had no idea you were that......old.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Watchit buster, I am just mature heeheh

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. for your general information I am 85 not 90, so there!

 

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[lamar]

Dear pegleglooker;
You so eloquently scrawled:

WOW!!!!! I didn't really realize just how much of a open mind you have Lamar I guess you are the MOST absolute " authority " on this subject..... I mean, I guess I should just go back to mding tin cans in the backyard.... I am not qualfied to even read your " words of wit "...

For whatever it's worth I happen to agree with you, my friend. Now leave my presence immediately! And do not return until you have redeemed yourself.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

[Dear group;
Yes, it's true that the banner of the Templars was referred to as The Beauseant, although nobody today knows what the word means. Most likely it was the name of a village in France or even a nickname of a person, or the incorrect pronounciation of another French word. Whatever the origins of the word, the flag of the Templars was NOT similiar to the latter day flag of Switzerland, it was the flag of the Hospitallers which was very similiar.
Your friend;
LAMAR]

Actually "Beauseant" is a fairly well used name. The name is familiar to readers of Honore de Balzac and can be found in a number of books concerning theater. In those cases, the name is fictional.......I believe.

Two books I have, more to the point, are "The Sword and the Grail" and "The Secret Scroll", both by Andrew Sinclair. In the first book, he writes: "One historian of the Templars interprets their war banner and battle-cry Beauseant as a corruption of the Celtic word meaning Paradise, so that they rode into battle with the same aim as the Sufis and the Assassins."

In the second of the two, Sinclair writes: "Above these were mosaics of black-and -white lozenges, reminiscent of the Templar battle flag Beauseant and the later tessellated pavements of Masonic Lodges."

Take care,

Joe

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Dear group;
Yes, it's true that the banner of the Templars was referred to as The Beauseant, although nobody today knows what the word means.

You mean, nobody but you, right?

You better get your nose down, I think it's supposed to rain.

 

[lamar]

Dear Cache Crazy;
Yes, it's true that the banner of the Templars was referred to as The Beauseant, although NOBODY today knows what the word means.
Exactly which part of my prior statement did you NOT understand? Please do NOT place words in my mouth or add to my statements. If you are unable to grasp simple English then I would highly suggest attending remedial English classes until you are able to do so.
Thank you.
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Cache Crazy and others;
If you have nothing constructive to add to these topics then please refrain from posting on them until you do. Positive or negative, it does not matter as long as they are constructive comments. Cheap shots and personal attacks are wrong. Please stop it.
Thank you.
LAMAR

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Wanting to control the posts, are you? I guess that's understandable, being that you're a god. Tell me Lamar, are we supposed to bow and kiss YOUR ring, too?

 

[lamar]

Dear Cache Crazy;
.Wanting to control the posts, are you? I guess that's understandable, being that you're a god. Tell me Lamar, are we supposed to bow and kiss YOUR ring, too?
No, however you are welcome to kiss something else.
LAMAR

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Dear Cache Crazy;
.Wanting to control the posts, are you? I guess that's understandable, being that you're a god. Tell me Lamar, are we supposed to bow and kiss YOUR ring, too?
No, however you are welcome to kiss something else.
LAMAR

Ladies and gentlemen, a man of God. Yeah, right.

 

[lamar]

Dear Cache Crazy;
If you have a problem I would suggest that you go elsewhere to resolve it. Either way, please stop posting on this and other topics unless it somehow pretains to the topic. We need to self-police ourselves lest the moderators do it for us. Thank you for all consideration.
LAMAR

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Dear Cache Crazy;
If you have a problem I would suggest that you go elsewhere to resolve it. Either way, please stop posting on this and other topics unless it somehow pretains to the topic. We need to self-police ourselves lest the moderators do it for us. Thank you for all consideration.
LAMAR

Then police YOURSELF and stop trying to police everyone else. Thank YOU for all consideration.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi compadres!
This will be a very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence - anyone who prefers not to have to wade through long posts, simply skip ahead.

As the weather here in Dakota took a turn for the 'ugly' today (the high hit a whopping 8 above, with a nice north wind to blow the stink off har har ) so I find I have time to indulge in our discussion. I found some rather interesting tidbits, which appear to be at odds with some of the statements our friend Lamar has posted thus far. For example, Lamar stated that the Templars were GUILTY of the crimes they had been accused of. Well a document that dates to the period controverts this assertion, which I will post an extract of below. Lamar also asserted that not more than NINE Templars actually were killed in the inquisition into their 'crimes'. This same source I will post controverts this statement. Lamar also asserted that NONE of the Templars were EVER tortured, and again according to this ancient document, translation by Helen J. Nicholson, controverts this assertion most strongly. Here is an extract:

All this is clearly apparent from the unheard of and inquitious proceedings issued against the Templars, which contain no justice but rather savage tyranny, since they were arrested without warning, suddenly without right or judgement being made, shamefully and dishonourably incarcerated with destructive rage, afflicted with taunts, the gravest threats, and various sorts of torture, compelled to die or produce absurd lies which they knew nothing about, wrongly given into the hands of their enemies, who force them through those torments to read out a foul, filthy and lying list which cannot be conceived by human ears and should not enter the human heart. But when the brothers refuse to produce these lies, although they know absolutely nothing about them, the torments of the attendants who press them daily force them to speak the lies, saying that they must recite them before the Jacobins and assert that they are true if they wish to preserve their lives and obtain the king's plentiful grace.

But many of them, choosing to serve God rather than Mammon, have so strongly embraced truth, that thirty-six of them in the Paris house alone, besides an infinite number of others who have been similarly treated throughout various parts of the kingdom, have passed through these torments like athletes of Christ with the martyr's palm to the Lord and attained the celestial kingdom. Of the rest, many, belted with divine virtue, have been destroyed by the tortures of the aforementioned attendants and left for dead, only half-alive. Like the strongest of warriors they have always held to the word of truth, saying that the brothers of the Temple promise four things when they enter the order, i.e., obedience, chastity, poverty, and that they will expend all their strength in the service of the Holy Land. They are received with an honourable kiss of peace; they take the Lord's Cross together with the habit, custom and rule from the Roman Church and the Holy Fathers and they are taught to keep them safely. The same brothers of the said order report, assert and repeat this on their own oath again and again.

But the said attendants and the Jacobin friars, masters--or rather, assassins--of great iniquity, block their ears like adders do against this truth, which they are unable to understand, and twist it like venomous serpents do, since in their malice they desire to get the result they hope for; because they are deceived by their ardent hatred and blinded by their savage cupidity. They hope to enrich their monks and associates at the expense of others, to get fat on the Templars' goods, so that they will be able to gain a part of their revenues forever. So they order that the Templars who tell the truth should be tortured fiercely for so long until either they die from the punishment or they are forced to suppress the truth and lie that they denied God, despised Christ's Cross and produce the other worthless things which not only should not be done but not even described.

What is more, if they do not say these things, not only before but even after torture, they are always held in dark prison cells, with only the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction, in winter time with the pressing cold, lying with sighs and grief on the ground without straw or coverings. In the middle of the night, to increase their terror, now one, now another are taken from cell to cell. Those whom they have killed in torture they secretly bury in the stable or in the garden, for fear that such horrible and savage deeds should reach the royal ears, since they had told and tell that the aforesaid brothers did not confess their crimes by violence but of their own accord.

Anyone who is defeated by the tortures and produces the lies which the attendants and Jacobins want, although they ought to be punished for lying even though they did not want to lie, is raised up to chambers where they are happily provided with everything they need, so that they will keep up the lie. They are continually warned with threats, or with rough or flattering words. What is more, a certain monk--or more truely a demoniac--ceaselessly runs through the chambers at any hour, day and night, tempting the brothers and extending warnings of what will happen to them. And if he discovers that anyone has repented of the said lies, he sends them straight back to the aforesaid afflictions and penuries.

<This was written early in 1308, by an anonymous writer close to the Templars. Dr. Helen Nicholson teaches at the University of Wales-Cardiff College.>

Are we to simply ignore the charges made in this letter, that the many terrible crimes the Templars were accused of had no basis in fact, that they were horribly tortured, and that no less than 36 of their number succumbed to the treatment in Paris alone? What do you say about this Lamar?

Lamar also stated it was a matter of simple math, and produced figures on exactly how many Templars were in England and Scotland, and admits that SOME of them cannot be accounted for. Where do you obtain your figures on how many Templars were in the aforementioned countries? How many Templars would it take, to spirit away a holy relic like the Holy Grail? Wouldn't a SINGLE knight with his retainer(s) be quite sufficient, so long as their holy cargo were kept from public knowledge? Most so-caled "myths" have a basis in fact, so we should withhold judgement concerning the various stories surrounding the Templars and their treasures, until they can be proven one way or the other.

I also found a letter from the Pope, written in December of 1312 shortly after the bull of suppression of the Templars, that sheds light on just where a fair number of the Templar knights were expected to go, here is an extract

For an everlasting record. Not long ago, under the Lord's providence, we held a general council at Vienne, at which we suppressed the former order of the Knights Templar of Jerusalem. We granted, attached and joined the Templar possessions, with the approval of the sacred council, to the order of the Hospital of saint John of Jerusalem, for the help of the holy Land; with the exception, for certain reasons, of their property lying in the kingdoms and lands of our beloved sons in Christ, the illustrious kings ....of Castile, ....of Aragon, ....of Portugal and ....of Majorca, outside the kingdom of France, which we reserved for our disposal and that of the apostolic see until we made other arrangements.
<snip>
We wish that the transfer of property of the former order of the Temple to the order of the Hospital may, by our provision, be of advantage to the holy Land. We also wish that quarrels, scandals and discord be prevented between prelates and other clergy on the one hand and the brothers of the order on the other; that lasting concord be established between them; and that the order and its members be reformed, if and as this seems good. We have therefore made three special provisions regarding the order of the Hospital.

The first has to do with the holy Land. We shall have an exact and careful enquiry made into the past and present possessions of the order of the Hospital and their exact annual value. We shall wish to know fully the annual value of each old and new house of the order, and how much this represents each year in terms of assistance to the holy Land. On completion of this valuation, and taking into account the necessary local expenditure, we shall oblige the order to maintain continuously in the holy Land a certain number of brothers and knights. These brothers and knights are to labour effectively and strive to win the holy Land and keep it, as far as God grants. We shall arrange and provide that very few brothers of the order remain on this side of the sea. These shall be only those required to govern the houses of the order and those who are old, sick or unfit for war. The young and the strong, who are able to fight, shall be required to go and stay overseas so that the holy Land may have its needs met. The order will thus pursue the purpose for which it was instituted, as is only right and fitting.
<snip>
We cannot impose on our successors the continuation of the above policy. Yet, in order to make this course of action possible and easier for them, we shall have the annual value of each house registered exactly in the Roman curia, and also the service which it will be able to provide each year for the holy Land, and the fixed number of brothers and knights required to stay overseas.
<Given at Avignon on 31 December in the eighth year of our pontificate.>

At first glance this would appear to be irrelevant, only touching on the Templars in a peripheral way, however as Lamar pointed out, a large number of the Templars did join the Hospitallers, and thus would be among those referred to in this Papal letter, if able to fight they would most likely be sent overseas to the Holy land.

Hmm..."overseas". It is easy to conclude that the reference to "overseas" must mean the Holy Land, but this is not absolutely specified, only hinted at. Is it not possible that perhaps one or more Templars or ex-Templars were to be sent "overseas" and NOT to the Holy Land?

I welcome your comments and replies, thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
I am familiar with the text however, I have never been able to track down the original document. Also, the document is deemed as unreliable due to the suspicious lack of names, places or dates, authors' name(s), seals, etc. In other words, it could have been written by anyone at anytime.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

Also, the document is deemed as unreliable due to the suspicious lack of names, places or dates, authors' name(s), seals, etc. In other words, it could have been written by anyone at anytime.

Why would anyone in their right mind, put any kind of name and/or seal onto a document defending the Templars at the height of their persecutions? That would not make any sense amigo. Your dismissal out of hand appears unjustified.
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
Perhaps you misunderstood my intentions, my friend. I did not dismiss the document out of hand, I merely stated that it is considered as unreliable. The document may be genuine, however because it contains none of the above criteria it can not be confirmed with any degree of accuracy. We do not who the author was, nor is it stated why the document was written. Who wrote it and why? These are valid questions, my friend. And, how *close* was this author to the Templars themselves? Was he a warden in the prison? Was he one of those who were incarcerated? was he an official scribe of the court? Did he know any of the Templars personally, or did he hear of the supposed *tortures* second, or even third, hand? The date is 1308, yet will the original document stand up to scrutiny? Does it even exist? Did it ever exist? Perhaps the original document was *copied* from a supposed *original* document at a much later date. This has happened many times. Again, I am NOT dismissing the document out of hand my friend, merely questioning it's validity.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi compadre Lamar,

Lamar I apologize, I got a mistaken impression that you had dismissed the anonymous 1308 letter out of hand, simply because it was unsigned. It would have been the very height of folly, to have put one's own name to any kind of document defending the Templars at this point. It may have even been written BY a Templar, for all we know. The very fact that it IS unsigned, actually is a point in favor of the letter being genuine, considering the state of affairs in 1308.

As for the validity of the document, in the opinion of Dr. Nicholson it was quite genuine and the date was correct. I cannot make any personal vouchsafe on its validity, other than to rely on the experts' opinions. I have not been able to determine the present location of this medeival letter, as far as I know it is still in existence.

One might take a similar highly skeptical attitude towards the Vatican version of events, that all executions were reduced in numbers, that the reports of tortures should be extinguished etc in fact the history of the whole of this terrible period should be expunged and edited so as to shed a more positive light upon the Vatican's role in these affairs. Those Templars executed and tortured in France certainly do not seem to have been victims of Vatican officials, at least not in a direct way. If some officers of the Church did take part in these trials and persecution, we do not know that they did so with the approval and consent of the Pope. (Not to my knowledge, so far.) In fact, based on the Papacy granting permission for at least some of the Templars to join the Hospitallers, and granting pensions to those in advanced years, we have to wonder, would that be in keeping with an angry and vengeful Pope who would want to see his (former) Templars tortured and burned at the stake? That would not be logical, at least not to me.

The Templars remain one of the great mysteries of the past, with their secretive habits and ability to turn a profit in a dark, violent and primitive age is a wonder in itself.

Don Jose' wrote

Cactus, you posted -->

I had no idea you were that......old.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Watchit buster, I am just mature heeheh

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. for your general information I am 85 not 90, so there!

Hmm amigo then what are we to make of your admitted age on your profile? I find that it says "age 159"..... well no matter what the calender count may be, age is a number IMHO and so long as we keep a young mind, we can never be truly OLD. I only hope that I may match your years and a fraction of your experience amigo, though your record can not be equalled, to even measure up to a fraction of your achievements would be quite an accomplishment.

Sheesh sorry for the "butter application" there amigo, only speaking the truth as I see it. You can rest assured it has nothing to do with my well-justified fear of flying 50-70 Springfield lead minie balls, fired by such a marksman as you are! (I can not run so fast while packing those danged heavy Tayopa gold bars!)

Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Ola Oro,
It's not how old you R, it's how old you feeeeelll.

PLL

 

[lamar]

Dear pegleglooker;
Have you properly castigated yourself, my friend?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi compade Pegleglooker!

Pegleglooker wrote

It's not how old you R, it's how old you feeeeelll.

OUCH! That makes me older than our amigos here! My boss, who is twenty years my senior, quite frequently puts me to shame (I am convinced I am too old to be playing cowboy) - and there are too many times when I feel to be a quite FAR advanced, quite derelict old age. I guess that old saying about used cars is also true for old prospectors - "It ain't the years its the MILES!"
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
To continue in this vein, we must ask WHY was the letter written and to WHOM was it originally intended? Without this information, validity cannot be ascertained. ALL letters written during the Middle Ages were done so with a definitive purpose in mind. Parchment and ink was expensive as was the scribes' labors, therefore if the letter had an original intention then why were so many typical items left out? let's face it, my friend, that document is VERY general in nature.

Why does it not describe ONE Templar by name? Or ONE torturer? Or ONE inquisitor? This casts a pall of suspicion over the document, my friend. What harm would there have been in describing the Templars by name or at least by rank? The author seems to have been able to describe in great detail the events so why any other pertinent information?

To look at the document subjectively one would get the impresssion that it was written a very long time after the fact.
Your friend;
LAMAR