Video 4 - The Peralta Stone Maps with Frank Augustine

[markmar]

SH

From your description , I understand how the " boulder " is somewhere 2,5 to 3 miles east from Tortilla Flat ( in a N to S axis ) . In the field ,the line drawing above the Omega points to south and the heart pocket points to SW .
In reality , the " cursum perficio " map is a view from NE ( bottom ) to SW ( top ) and the hearts always point to south .

 

[somehiker]

Sounds like you are interpreting the 2=3 to mean "2.5 to 3 miles" Marius.
i read it a bit different, which puts me a little further afield. And well off the south end of Malapais Mountain.

 

[markmar]

Very good Wayne . you went very close to the ' PERFICIO ' map view . In accordance with the map concept , you were opposite from the stone trail start point , and in the unιque place to be able to see the " key " which in this case is the " fornix " ( see my Profile photo ) .The heart is only about 330X300 yards large and covers a mountain top . The " PERFICIO " map works in double ways . Like a map for the end and like an illustration for the start .

Good luck Wayne and take care .

 

[Hal Croves]

Curious how the "blacked out" or dark side of the car just happens to stop at the windshield pillar.

Invert the image and adjust and it appears to be a door/porch(?) in shadow. Also, something to the right that is difficult to make out.

I am not sure why this photograph is associated with the initial discovery story. It clearly couldn't be.

 

[deducer]

Good to know that google-earth righteousness is alive and well.

"2.5 to 3 miles east of Tortilla Flat" puts you right in plain sight of service road 213 which leads to the popular Tortilla trailhead. That area is pretty much trampled by now.

 

[roadrunner]

Good to know that google-earth righteousness is alive and well.

"2.5 to 3 miles east of Tortilla Flat" puts you right in plain sight of service road 213 which leads to the popular Tortilla trailhead. That area is pretty much trampled by now.

Would service raod 213 been there a long time.
Could it also be a monumental or monumented trail at one time.

 

[somehiker]

Would service raod 213 been there a long time.
Could it also be a monumental or monumented trail at one time.

Yes, it was the original road out to Tortilla Ranch.
Not necessarily a monumented trail before then, but likely a major trail between the valley where TR is, and the old Apache Trail.
It follows the easiest route between the mazes of canyons and peaks to the east and west.

 

[deducer]

And hence a well-worn trail; not sure anything is left to be found. Of course I could always be wrong, but...

 

[cactusjumper]

Wonder if it was as "well worn" as this trail.......before it had vehicles on it.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

Wonder if it was as "well worn" as this trail.......before it had vehicles on it.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I'd say it probably was. Maybe even wide enough for a cart and worn much deeper into the rock.
There are still some traces of the old trail, bypassed by Hoolie Bacon's scraper, if you look hard enough.
That's no surprise, since it takes one to an oasis, even now. But probably even greener, and with more water back when.

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

I'd say it probably was. Maybe even wide enough for a cart and worn much deeper into the rock.
There are still some traces of the old trail, bypassed by Hoolie Bacon's scraper, if you look hard enough.
That's no surprise, since it takes one to an oasis, even now. But probably even greener, and with more water back when.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

That's a good guess, but my trail is no guess. It's down to bedrock.

Take care,

Joe

 

[KXMember]

And hence a well-worn trail; not sure anything is left to be found. Of course I could always be wrong, but...

Very monumental and yes, much to still be found. Takes a very keen eye to know what you're lookin at.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

That's a good guess, but my trail is no guess. It's down to bedrock.

Take care,

Joe

What's a guess Joe ?
Are you saying the Tortilla Ranch Road/trail is not worn down to bedrock ?
All the trails I have traveled out there, as well as in other areas of Arizona have sections worn down and even into the bedrock.
The hiker websites are chock full of photos taken by enthusiasts in those mountains, with shots of much longer sections of well worn trails, especially on the west side of the wilderness. Like "hearts", they can be found everywhere out there.
The stones feature what everyone believes is a "well worn trail", with those relatively evenly spaced dimples representing obvious markers....except me. So that is what they expect to find and so look for. I was in that boat for a while, but didn't expect to find a wide or worn trail. Not where I was looking, an area far less traveled pre or post LDM, but with geology and terrain as well suited or better than most for hiding a large cache of value. It took a while, and a few false leads before I broke away from the pack. Such a cache would have little sign, if any, of human intervention I reasoned. A well worn trail would be a giveaway, like a neon arrow pointing to a burger stand. And someone clever enough to conceive what could be the most complicated series of maps ever created, would not leave behind so much as a trail of bread crumbs, let alone a highway littered with garish road signs and billboards. So he didn't, choosing instead to use a system of natural features which wouldn't be easily recognized or erased by man or the elements. Those he selected weren't mountains, canyons or rivers like those on the conventional maps everyone could read and follow, but much smaller features which would only be of use to someone who knew this to be the case.

Regards:Wayne

 

[deducer]

Very monumental and yes, much to still be found. Takes a very keen eye to know what you're lookin at.

I doubt there is "much still to be found" on an old trail turned road, never mind something that close to Tortilla Flat, a hotspot for tourists, recreational hikers and boaters.

 

[cactusjumper]

What's a guess Joe ?
Are you saying the Tortilla Ranch Road/trail is not worn down to bedrock ?
All the trails I have traveled out there, as well as in other areas of Arizona have sections worn down and even into the bedrock.
The hiker websites are chock full of photos taken by enthusiasts in those mountains, with shots of much longer sections of well worn trails, especially on the west side of the wilderness. Like "hearts", they can be found everywhere out there.
The stones feature what everyone believes is a "well worn trail", with those relatively evenly spaced dimples representing obvious markers....except me. So that is what they expect to find and so look for. I was in that boat for a while, but didn't expect to find a wide or worn trail. Not where I was looking, an area far less traveled pre or post LDM, but with geology and terrain as well suited or better than most for hiding a large cache of value. It took a while, and a few false leads before I broke away from the pack. Such a cache would have little sign, if any, of human intervention I reasoned. A well worn trail would be a giveaway, like a neon arrow pointing to a burger stand. And someone clever enough to conceive what could be the most complicated series of maps ever created, would not leave behind so much as a trail of bread crumbs, let alone a highway littered with garish road signs and billboards. So he didn't, choosing instead to use a system of natural features which wouldn't be easily recognized or erased by man or the elements. Those he selected weren't mountains, canyons or rivers like those on the conventional maps everyone could read and follow, but much smaller features which would only be of use to someone who knew this to be the case.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

As I said: [Wonder if it was as "well worn" as this trail.......before it had vehicles on it.]

Do you know what that road looked like before it had the kind of traffic took it to bedrock?

Only thing possible on my trail, was human or animal traffic. Course it also had this huge heart at the very end of the trail, much like the Stone Maps.

Or this triangle slash:

Take care,

Joe

 

[KXMember]

I doubt there is "much still to be found" on an old trail turned road, never mind something that close to Tortilla Flat, a hotspot for tourists, recreational hikers and boaters.

View attachment 1178068

You'd be surprised...

 

[sdcfia]

Heavy wagons can create deep ruts.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

As I said: [Wonder if it was as "well worn" as this trail.......before it had vehicles on it.]

Do you know what that road looked like before it had the kind of traffic took it to bedrock?

Only thing possible on my trail, was human or animal traffic. Course it also had this huge heart at the very end of the trail, much like the Stone Maps.

Or this triangle slash:

Take care,

Joe

Can't say Joe. I wasn't there when the road was first made passable by wagon and such. Or the Apache Trail for that matter.
But it probably looked a LOT like the one in your photo. Any trail from high and dry to low and wet would have,
Same thing for the Reavis Ranch and First Water/Second Water Roads. They all were built upon existing trails where possible to do so.
But you have your theory, based partly on aerial views of the mountains, not all that different than the many others who worked it out in the same way.
And you have hiked your "monumented" trail, found one of the common "heart like" rock formations, and declared yourself "the only one" on numerous occasions ever since. Nothing wrong with that I guess, and perhaps Thomas G. , Tom K. , or someone new to the writers club will include a chapter about you and your expedition in a book. If they did I would certainly add it to my small collection of LDM related books and materials.
All I'm saying, is that I have taken a different trail. And that trail, like my own theory is NOT well traveled or worn like your trail.
But it does get down to the bedrock in many places, so it works for me.
I'll just have to continue wearing away at those parts that don't.

Regards:Wayne

 

[somehiker]

Heavy wagons can create deep ruts.

View attachment 1178121

Yes they can, especially where the same path is or has to be followed, like one between rock outcroppings.
There are a few places out there where such ruts and cuts have been found and photographed.
The ones I and a very few others have found most interesting, are the ones much narrower than those common near immigrant trails and mining haul roads.
While noticeable, they are never as deeply cut into the rock like those in your photo.

 

[cactusjumper]

Yes they can, especially where the same path is or has to be followed, like one between rock outcroppings.
There are a few places out there where such ruts and cuts have been found and photographed.
The ones I and a very few others have found most interesting, are the ones much narrower than those common near immigrant trails and mining haul roads.
While noticeable, they are never as deeply cut into the rock like those in your photo.

Wayne,

In your opinion, are these kinds of ruts, in rock, made by wagon/truck wheels?

Take care,

Joe