🔎 UNIDENTIFIED WANT SOME OTHER EYES ON SOME THINGS... relative values or IDs ?

[TORRERO]

A few things I've found over the years and wanted some eyes that might give me a relative value, and age

1. A bronze pipe ?
2. This is a handheld SUNDIAL found on a beach in Spain, still has a piece of glass inside, it is threaded on the edges to close the case.
3. I call this the CHINAMAN because I don't know what it is, but some type of clip. found in a park in the USA, a sailer ? stepping on the hair of a chinaman ?
4. Bute plate from a Brown Bess ? Riffle dug on a battlefield in Spain. shank bent over we believe so that the enemy could not reuse it..
5. Silver handmade Rosery found in Spain, years ago. Cross originally had wood in it, but degraded. Wondering the value ?
6. Sterling love ring from WWII Philippines ? wondering the value ? I don't know where this is at the moment but will try to find it.


I'm will to try to sell some of this for the right price, but like the Sundial I suspect is worth a lot, I just don't know how much.
Added other photos of Chinese guy, this is about the size of a quarter.

 

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[releventchair]

Am I losing it here.....But the photo in the first group it looks like the upper hole is off to one side, giving the impression that there would be two holes in the top portion of the plate.

See picture below.

View attachment 2119658

Later pictures create the same effect.
How , is beyond me.
Yet in those later photos are clearly 2 centered single holes. Not side by side as the picture above (and a couple others also with the series showing the centered holes earlier) try to suggest.

Looks like 2 different butt plates.
Wild!

I'm gettin butt plated out.
L.o.l..

 

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[releventchair]

Ok figured it out, the offset appearance of the hole is due to the curvature of the plate. Leaning towards a Brown Bess butt plate.

Here's two different Brown Bess butt plates with the tab and dual screw holes in the back portion of the plate.

View attachment 2119660 View attachment 2119661

Excellent!

A short land pattern then?

Comparing Brown Bess Butt Plates

Hi, As many of you know, I restored originals, reworked repros, and built Brown Bess muskets. I love the guns, and deeply respect and admire the craftsmen working in the ordnance system that produced them. One of our forum members, Rich Pierce, donated a Reeves Goehring casting of a butt plate...

www.muzzleloadingforum.com

 

[Retired Sarge]

Later pictures create the same effect.
How , is beyond me.
Yet in those later photos are clearly 2 centered single holes. Not side by side as the picture above (and a couple others also with the series showing the centered holes earlier) try to suggest.

Looks like 2 different butt plates.
Wild!

I'm gettin butt plated out.
L.o.l..

I kept fixating on the fact that appearance seemed to imply that there were two holes side by side. So I looked at every Napoleonic era weapon I could think of and kept coming up blank.

Then after the new pics were uploaded, I was confused as heck......My simple brain couldn't figure out what I was seeing or not seeing. Took a break, came back and realized it was an illusion caused by the curvature of the plate. Then I felt like a first class dummy.....

 

[releventchair]

I kept fixating on the fact that appearance seemed to imply that there were two holes side by side. So I looked at every Napoleonic era weapon I could think of and kept coming up blank.

Then after the new pics were uploaded, I was confused as heck......My simple brain couldn't figure out what I was seeing or not seeing. Took a break, came back and realized it was an illusion caused by the curvature of the plate. Then I felt like a first class dummy.....

That's alright.
My crossed eyes had it being French. So there!
Then I went back looking for the parts lot that had a similar plate in it , and couldn't locate the posting again..
Sacre' Bleu!

 

[Retired Sarge]

Excellent!

A short land pattern then?

Comparing Brown Bess Butt Plates

Hi, As many of you know, I restored originals, reworked repros, and built Brown Bess muskets. I love the guns, and deeply respect and admire the craftsmen working in the ordnance system that produced them. One of our forum members, Rich Pierce, donated a Reeves Goehring casting of a butt plate...

www.muzzleloadingforum.com

All the two hole tabbed ones I find are being referred to the India Pattern/3rd Pattern Brown Bess.....? So your guess is as good as mine!

 

[releventchair]

All the two hole tabbed ones I find are being referred to the India Pattern/3rd Pattern Brown Bess.....? So your guess is as good as mine!

Ahha.
Not a short pattern then. But shorter than one...

[Another version with a 39-inch (990 mm) barrel was first manufactured for the British East India Company, and was eventually adopted by the British Army in 1790 as the India Pattern.

Pattern	In service	Barrel Length	Overall Length	Weight
Long Land Pattern	1722–1793 Standard Infantry Musket 1722–1768 (supplemented by Short Land Pattern from 1768)	46 inches (1,200 mm)	62.5 inches (1,590 mm)	10.4 pounds (4.7 kg)
Short Land Pattern	1740–1797 1740 (Dragoons) 1768 (Infantry) Standard Infantry Musket 1793–1797	42 inches (1,100 mm)	58.5 inches (1,490 mm)	10.5 pounds (4.8 kg)
India Pattern	1797–1854 Standard Infantry Musket 1797–1854 (Some in use pre-1797 purchased from the East India Company for use in Egypt)	39 inches (990 mm)	55.25 inches (1,403 mm)	9.68 pounds (4.39 kg)
New Land Pattern	1802–1854 Issued only to the Foot Guards and 4th Regiment of Foot	39 inches (990 mm)	55.5 inches (1,410 mm)	10.06 pounds (4.56 kg)
New Light Infantry Land Pattern	1811–1854 Issued only to the 43rd, 51st, 52nd, 68th, 71st and 85th Light Infantry and the Battalions of the 60th Foot not armed with rifles. The detail differences between this musket and the standard New Land Pattern were a scrolled trigger guard similar to that of the Baker Rifle except more rounded, a browned barrel and a notch used as rear-sights, the bayonet lug being used as fore-sights	39 inches (990 mm)	55.5 inches (1,410 mm)	10.06 pounds (4.56 kg)
Cavalry Carbine	1796–1838 Issued to cavalry units	26 inches (660 mm)	42.5 inches (1,080 mm)	7.37 pounds (3.34 kg)
Sea Service Pattern	1778–1854 Issued to Royal Navy ships, drawn by men as required, Marines used Sea Service weapons when deployed as part of a ship's company but were issued India Pattern weapons when serving ashore	37 inches (940 mm)	53.5 inches (1,360 mm)	9.00 pounds (4.08 kg)

 

[TORRERO]

finding single screw Bess plate with a lug for a pin. And others just a single rear screw then one forward.

One group of parts had two plates including a lugged two holed plate stating one was for a French musket.
Could be a hint yours is French?

Absolutely possible its French, it was French and Spanish and British fighting in the Peninsular war

 

[TORRERO]

Ok figured it out, the offset appearance of the hole is due to the curvature of the plate. Leaning towards a Brown Bess butt plate.

Here's two different Brown Bess butt plates with the tab and dual screw holes in the back portion of the plate.

View attachment 2119660 View attachment 2119661

The holes on mine do appear to be off center a little bit.

 

[TORRERO]

I found these similar ones doing a google search, appears to be 18th century or 1700's ?

 

[eyemustdigtreasure]

A few things I've found over the years and wanted some eyes that might give me a relative value, and age

1. A bronze pipe ?
2. This is a handheld SUNDIAL found on a beach in Spain, still has a piece of glass inside, it is threaded on the edges to close the case.
3. I call this the CHINAMAN because I don't know what it is, but some type of clip. found in a park in the USA, a sailer ? stepping on the hair of a chinaman ?
4. Bute plate from a Brown Bess ? Riffle dug on a battlefield in Spain. shank bent over we believe so that the enemy could not reuse it..
5. Silver handmade Rosery found in Spain, years ago. Cross originally had wood in it, but degraded. Wondering the value ?
6. Sterling love ring from WWII Philippines ? wondering the value ? I don't know where this is at the moment but will try to find it.


I'm will to try to sell some of this for the right price, but like the Sundial I suspect is worth a lot, I just don't know how much.

All are museum-quality stuff...!

 

[DCMatt]

Got to wonder in the Pigtail image has anything to do with the End of the Queue.

http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/features.php?searchterm=027_queue.inc&issue=027

Or the Pigtail Ordnance.

Pigtail Ordinance - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

As for the buttplate, you'd be surprised how bent they come out of the ground at times. Plowing, run over by military equipment, fire, environmental factors (Freezing/thawing of the ground), etc can cause them to become bent.

I think Sarge is right on it with the "end of the Queue" reference. That would date the piece to the late 19th C. A similar ordinance was passed in Japan in the early 1870's regarding the Samurai "top knot" hairstyle .

I believe your piece is some kind of collar clip or bachelor button but I can't prove it. I've not seen one of that type/style.