WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

[bigscoop]

NO proof that JB Risque was French... I looked. You're looking at 1816-1832; is THAT the "time period in question"...?

1816 - 1832, this period pretty much covers the Beale Pamphlet era including the 10 year term.

 

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[releventchair]

Lafitte landing slaves on Bowie island property vermilion bay s.e. Louisiana, slaves captured from shipments in Caribbean and Mexican gulf. The Bowie brothers quitting the business when they reached a 65000 dollar goal. A route established.
Was Lafitte in Bordeaux in 1815 on another route?. Texan James Bowie,from La., Mexican citizen,in his smuggling would have known of Laguna,others did too. Napoleons will states 1814 being when diamonds not from crown but associated with were delivered up. repossession shall be obtained of them to discharge my legacies( 4/24/1821).

 

[Rebel - KGC]

You're still focusing on "French"......How many past & present Bedford County residents were at the war of 1812 in New Orleans? I'm sure Risque was French, as well as several others. Bonapartism was very strong in the region in certain circles. Many prominent refugees passed through the region and knew various people in the region, etc., etc. 1816 - 1832 is a long way past the French & Indian wars, need to stay within the time period in question.

The "French connection"...? It was/is YOUR focus, now, isn't it...?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

1816 - 1832, this period pretty much covers the Beale Pamphlet era including the 10 year term.

OK; NOTHING to do with the French "connection", then...? French had TWO "towns" in Alabama; they "flopped". Ghost Towns in Alabama, today. "Frenchies" that survived, went on down to New Orleans, LA where the REST of the "Frenchies" were exiled to by the BRITS after the French & Indians War, FRENCH QUARTER was HOT (ACTIVE)!

 

[bigscoop]

In 1816 "a faction" of the French refugee community from the Napoleonic campaigns became organized with a specific plan to "construct, explore, colonize" here in the United States. This was all they had left, they couldn't go back home and they wanted a large territory they could call their own. At this time the west and southwest laid largely unexplored, and the best part, the future of this land was still uncertain and a great deal of it was still being challenged and bartered for in the political arena. Not only was the future of this land still uncertain but the vast majority of it had been exchanged several times in recent years and one large portion of it had even been agreed and declared as a "neutral zone", meaning that no individual country had jurisdiction over it. In this scenario rested a prime opportunity for the desperate refugees of the Napoleonic campaigns. This assembly had even drawn up it's own form of Government and it maintained a long list of wealthy and influential supporters, or allies, within the United States and abroad. Keep in mind, and this is extremely important, you DID NOT have to be French or a Napoleonic refugee to take part in this new movement, the only requirement was that you believed in the cause and that you supported "the idea" this movement represented. Race, nationality, social standing, etc., none of this mattered as long as you believed in the cause and you supported the principles for which this movement stood, which was, "Bonapartism".

PS: And this is important also; basically there were two different types of French refugees in this country; A) those that arrived here as unfortunate victims from the effects of the Napoleonic campaigns, and B) those who directly participated in the Napoleonic campaigns. You also have to account for many French that were here prior to this era, the remnants of past French ownerships, explorations, and participations.

 

[tat2guy]

Interesting,and once again the Philadelphia connection with Girard and Lallemand.
Here is another-Maj General Robert Patterson of Philadelphia had many parties and meetings at his mansion on 13th & Locust St.His guests included Girard,Lallemand and Joseph Bonaparte.
Patterson's mansion had a fireplace mantle that came from Bonaparte's Bordertown,NJ mansion.

Not to mention Jerome Bonaparte married his daughter Elizabeth Patterson. Look into this and you will find some interesting stuff. This family ends up traveling the world and returns to Baltimore after some rejections. Good stuff though.

 

[tat2guy]

Sorry Bigscoop I can not reconsider TJB and his party did pass through St. Louis on the given dates in the Job Print Pamphlet. Maybe your French Network was not as good as you think. By TJB picking up his letters on the dates he said he passed through St. Louis is documented proof that he was there when he said he was? You can mask the Beale Treasure Story with your hopes of grandeur by the French but sorry no French Toast for me.

Is it documented that TJB picked up letters in St. Louis? Would you share the source or the documents?

 

[tat2guy]

The "French connection"...? It was/is YOUR focus, now, isn't it...?

Stepping out on a limb here but it sounds like a Bonaparte connexion to me.....

 

[tat2guy]

OK; NOTHING to do with the French "connection", then...? French had TWO "towns" in Alabama; they "flopped". Ghost Towns in Alabama, today. "Frenchies" that survived, went on down to New Orleans, LA where the REST of the "Frenchies" were exiled to by the BRITS after the French & Indians War, FRENCH QUARTER was HOT (ACTIVE)!

Don't forget about Asylum Pa. The first. French refugee camp in the US.

 

[releventchair]

Spain saw in the early eighteen hundreds some of its best yields of precious metals from the west,southwest part of the north American continent.
While most was spent in defence the resource was there. With the U.K. gold standard in first quarter,who ever could move gold had a ready market. Who then followed the Spanish in mining areas they could no longer work?.
Napoleon had plenty of silver and gold it would appear from his will,what came from the west would have gone elsewhere.
My point being what if anything buried in secret could remain so as a secure reserve if access to fresh gold sources existed.

 

[bigscoop]

"Refugee" as it pertains to the French can take on several different aspects/groups/eras. It is a mistake to assume that the term includes all French refugees as being associated to a singular group. Think of the term as it applies to the various subgroups. In 1824 General Lafayette was celebrated in this country, his visit here including every state in the union. Ironically, it was Napoleon that had negotiated Lafayette's release from British imprisonment some thirty years prior. But keep in mind, Lafayette still refused to take part in Napoleon's system of government because he didn't agree with the principles/practices. Point being, the French had many divisions, just as we have different political parties and opposite points of view in the country today. So, it is a big mistake to assume "French refugees" represents just a singular element, or group, or political faction. Understanding all of this is critical.

 

[bigscoop]

Spain saw in the early eighteen hundreds some of its best yields of precious metals from the west,southwest part of the north American continent.
While most was spent in defence the resource was there. With the U.K. gold standard in first quarter,who ever could move gold had a ready market. Who then followed the Spanish in mining areas they could no longer work?.
Napoleon had plenty of silver and gold it would appear from his will,what came from the west would have gone elsewhere.

The French were aware of the rich resources in the west and southwest, as a past king Joseph Bonaparte was certainly aware of it as was Lallemand and others. But I really don't believed the two Beale deposits were the result of a mining operation, but rather I have reason to believe this was part of a treasury that had originally been brought into the region to support the cause, "construct, explore, colonize."

 

[releventchair]

The French were aware of the rich resources in the west and southwest, as a past king Joseph Bonaparte was certainly aware of it as was Lallemand and others. But I really don't believed the two Beale deposits were the result of a mining operation, but rather I have reason to believe this was part of a treasury that had originally been brought into the region to support the cause, "construct, explore, colonize."

Then in a Napoleonism based colonization where leaders are one type and general colonists any type, have you found any documentation of valuables, even historic coming directly from France,and or tied to a Bonaparte?.
Failing that Lafitte still could have access to any thing of value to be hidden, by hire or by plunder,as well as a distribution network.

 

[bigscoop]

Then in a Napoleonism based colonization where leaders are one type and general colonists any type, have you found any documentation of valuables, even historic coming directly from France,and or tied to a Bonaparte?.
Failing that Lafitte still could have access to any thing of value to be hidden, by hire or by plunder,as well as a distribution network.

Yes, the Bonaparte's had access and possession of vast wealth. Per example; we all know the story behind Joseph's plundering of the Spanish Crown and a return trip he ordered into Switzerland to retrieve an assortment of valuables hidden there. Armies didn't move without a treasury and to the victor go the spoils. Research many of the paintings he had at his estate and where they came from and how he acquired them. There is also one document discussing sending a portion of the treasury to the United States prior to Bonaparte's expected escape to this country.

One other point of interest; you might also research the first know discoveries of "jewels" in this country, not very likely that those mentioned in the Beale Pamphlet came from the US. Keep in mind as well that it would have been nearly impossible to attach any type of an exact value to uncut stones. During the period in question "jewels" mainly consisted of cut and polished, diamond, ruby, sapphire and emerald, which is a very specialized craft.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Has ANYONE read THE SECRET MISSION OF THOMAS JEFFERSON BEALE: Intrigue and Hidden Treasure by Larry C. Hinson of North Carolina...?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The French were aware of the rich resources in the west and southwest, as a past king Joseph Bonaparte was certainly aware of it as was Lallemand and others. But I really don't believed the two Beale deposits were the result of a mining operation, but rather I have reason to believe this was part of a treasury that had originally been brought into the region to support the cause, "construct, explore, colonize."

FRENCH TREASURY...?

 

[bigscoop]

Ask the Historical Society in Missouri for the microfilm of the newspapers from 1800 to 1832. Look especially at the Franklin Intelligencer Newspaper as well as the others you will find the "List of Names of Letters waiting for them to pick up at the post offices. If you look at the dates the letters were laying there -----it was the exact time frames that TJB and his party were in the New Mexico and Colorado Territories. By looking at TJB's letters you can see when he arrived and when he departed--------his letters were picked up at precisely the months TJB said he was there. There can be no questions as to whether TJB and party went west if you look for the documented research that proves it to be so. You can also read French Trapper journals and parallel them with the campsites of John Bell's journal and you will see that the party in Kansas was TJB's party even though Jacob Fowler calls it the Benjamin Cooper's Party since he was one of the guides along with his two nephews. No question in my mind other than that TJB and his party made at least two trips to Sante Fe area and back. Also TJB was there with a party from St. Louis when they were arrested and carried to Sante Fe. So he had a familiar face when the Spanish Governor saw him again in 1817.

Most likely, your sightings and references are in regard to Long expeditions of the same time period. If not then perhaps consider the possibility that your party was possibly in the employ/service of someone else? In the Beale Pamphlet it is pretty clear that contracts were agreed to and signed prior to enlistment. Just a suggestion you may wish to consider/investigate.

 

[tat2guy]

Ask the Historical Society in Missouri for the microfilm of the newspapers from 1800 to 1832. Look especially at the Franklin Intelligencer Newspaper as well as the others you will find the "List of Names of Letters waiting for them to pick up at the post offices. If you look at the dates the letters were laying there -----it was the exact time frames that TJB and his party were in the New Mexico and Colorado Territories. By looking at TJB's letters you can see when he arrived and when he departed--------his letters were picked up at precisely the months TJB said he was there. There can be no questions as to whether TJB and party went west if you look for the documented research that proves it to be so. You can also read French Trapper journals and parallel them with the campsites of John Bell's journal and you will see that the party in Kansas was TJB's party even though Jacob Fowler calls it the Benjamin Cooper's Party since he was one of the guides along with his two nephews. No question in my mind other than that TJB and his party made at least two trips to Sante Fe area and back. Also TJB was there with a party from St. Louis when they were arrested and carried to Sante Fe. So he had a familiar face when the Spanish Governor saw him again in 1817.

Thanks Franklin. Ill check it out. Once again you've helped me out and it's appreciated.

 

[releventchair]

Yes, the Bonaparte's had access and possession of vast wealth. Per example; we all know the story behind Joseph's plundering of the Spanish Crown and a return trip he ordered into Switzerland to retrieve an assortment of valuables hidden there. Armies didn't move without a treasury and to the victor go the spoils. Research many of the paintings he had at his estate and where they came from and how he acquired them. There is also one document discussing sending a portion of the treasury to the United States prior to Bonaparte's expected escape to this country.

One other point of interest; you might also research the first know discoveries of "jewels" in this country, not very likely that those mentioned in the Beale Pamphlet came from the US. Keep in mind as well that it would have been nearly impossible to attach any type of an exact value to uncut stones. During the period in question "jewels" mainly consisted of cut and polished, diamond, ruby, sapphire and emerald, which is a very specialized craft.

1741 John Paul Grimpke imported themto Charleston S.C. from around then on till present domestic jewelers were established. With stones available from blue ridge mtns, no find of diamond cutting in U.S. by machineanyway till well past Beale period
Previous to around mid 1700s,Diamonds from India and Brazil through Europe. Finished goods till some one began importing diamonds,or smuggling them around Europe's notice. Spain would have lost some to piracy too.

 

[bigscoop]

No this could not have been the Long Expedition because it was after July 4th, 1822.

I believe Long was back in St. Louis prior to his 1823 expedition. I don't have the info in front of me but I think he embarked on five expeditions total from 1817 through 1823.