where are all the archaeologists and experts when you need help????

[Trembull]

What might the weight be?
It's down over 340'
What would it take to move it a little or
Get it to the surface?
Nice find Old Man

 

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[ivan salis]

oriental type 8 sided guns made of brass / bronze were popular in the Indonesia area in the days of old--- the dutch were well known traders in that area and also were big time pirate raiders of Spanish treasure fleet type vessels as well. *

one of the 1715 fleet vessels was known as "Holandesa" or the dutch prize * bronze guns were favored due to them not rusting and becoming weakened (and possibly blow up during battle) -- bronze guns were considered "great prizes"

 

[Trembull]

*one of the 1715 fleet vessels was known as "Holandesa" or the dutch prize *

Ivan, Is That one of the ships in the Fleet that made it back then to Spain, Or it's still unfound?

 

[ivan salis]

the "Olandesa" (the dutch prize vessel of Echeverz's fleet *) was one of the 1715 fleets vessels that wrecked in the "known" 8 vessel main fleet wreck area * in the records trhere is a letter written by Echeverz from the "real "'( salvage camp site ) of the Olandesa * (dutch ) being a rather smallish shallow draft vessel , it came in close to shore before striking bottom * as it did so the bottom hull separated from the top deck which basically slid on shore like a giant surf board with several cabins basically fairly "intact"--- this was used as a shelter during the fleets / salvage / recovery phase and is where the letter was written from

none of the 11 Spanish 1715 fleet vessels made it back to span * only the 12th fleet vessel the French vessel griffon made it back to france and only because it broke away from the slow moving heavily loaded "treasure fleet" and sailed a vastly differant course -- the 11 vessel Spanish treasure fleet basically became two fleets * just before the storm hit -- one was all 5 of Ubilla's fleet plus 3 vessels from Echeverz fleet ---the two royal treasure vessels of Echeverz's fleet and the Olandesa (the dutch prize vessel )acting as an "advice" boat (patache) that echeverz brought with them on his own accord -- the 2 royal treasure boats in Echeverz's fleet was subject to Ubilla's command and he ordered them to form up with him , they had no choice but to "follow the bosses orders" --the other 3 vessels of Echeverz fleet however were not so restrained and echeverz told them to take whatever course they deemed best --they like the griffon took a more northerly course a bit later on than the griffon did * --the 3 vessels were the "French prize " aka "EL Ciervo "(reportly loaded with dyewood logs) --the Naoi San Migual (reportly loaded with tobacco) and the vessel "Conception" - the last one reportly wrecked off cape canaveral

 

[Trembull]

Thanks Ivan for the info

 

[Mackaydon]

old man,
The only gun I can think of that has an octagonal bore and fires octagonal projectiles was the Whitworth (.45 caliber) rifle.
Don......

 

[Smithbrown]

I think we are getting confused here. The Indonesian cannons which are facetted are octagonal on the outside of the barrel, not the inside- the photographs shows something which is clearly facetted in the inside. I would keep an open mind and look for a non-cannon object at this stage- some sort of pipe, possibly. Try asking a maritime engineer about octagonal joins.
Smithbrown

 

[aquanut]

I think we are getting confused here. The Indonesian cannons which are facetted are octagonal on the outside of the barrel, not the inside- the photographs shows something which is clearly facetted in the inside. I would keep an open mind and look for a non-cannon object at this stage- some sort of pipe, possibly. Try asking a maritime engineer about octagonal joins.
Smithbrown

Pipe Joint

 

[theseeker]

Old Man, found this on wikipedia, the interior of the cannon barrel in your pictures do not look octagonal, rather it looks polygonal. Here is the link: File:Hexagonal rifling of Le Petulant.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[theseeker]

Correction. I meant Hexagonal. Duh.

 

[Trembull]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Hitte_system

http://www.thepirateking.com/historical/cannon_rifling.htm

http://www.artillery.onlineheadquarters.net/field_pieces.php?snum=&gun=whitworth

Bottom of page:
Medieval Cannon



Opps late for work!

 

[Smithbrown]

I am confused now, Trembull. None of the medieval cannons have got facetted interiors on the barrels-they may be facetted on the outside but their interiors are round. I have see most of them. I am pretty certain there are no rifled or facetted interior barrels before the late 18th century (except one-offs and experimental guns) and then very few until the mid-19th century when they become more common. But even then rifling replaces facetted interiors very quickly.

I find Aquanaut's pipe more convincing at the moment.

 

[Mackaydon]

If its "hex" versus "oct" then it might be a variation of the 70-pounder Whitworth naval gun used during the 1860s. It was a rifled muzzle loader and used 'hex' projectiles--as Trembull suggested above.

Don.......

 

[aquanut]

I Hope it's a cannon and not a pipe joint! There are some pretty good links here for cannon, but I haven't seen dates I'm happy with yet.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Aquanut, as I suspected, you are a kill joy, let's drown our sorrows with



Fo what it is worth, the thingie in the photgraph does not apear to be a projectile launcher of any type. The interior sides do not appear to have any path other than straight, hence no gyroscoptic rotational factor - rifling - is involved.

Also the metal at the muzzle (?) appears way too thin for those times to withstand any high pressures as would be found by using black powder, although it does appear to have a crown on it.

Now please don't show any trunions to blow my theory away.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'afternoon Laura: Have a nice cool limeade waiting for you in the patio. I thank you again for your excellent book, I have enjoyed reading it, and have used it as a reference point several times.

Did you ever recover the bell in the Rio fuerte, or dig up the treasure in the corral??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[AUVnav]

From the images provided;

First off, never hire a company that does not provide a scale to the images!

Without a bore diameter, you will not get much more than 'educated' or experienced guesses, but still guesses.

From the images, the bore vs outside diameter, does not appear to be thick enough for a gun barrel. Granted, this may be the barrel end, but the other image does not appear to show any taper, so a uniform diameter is estimated.

Length, relative length (since there is no scale) is very long with no apparent taper. If the same bore ratio to thickness is as shown in the end image, it is very doubtful this was armament.

Whitworth rifling was polygonal with 6 sides, but did not have the sharp corners illustrated by your image...

it appears that in your image, there are 7 sides, not 6...

 

[Red_desert]

It seems that the projectile (if longer but narrow) for the barrels with a Hexagonal, polygonal, or octagonal bore would have a lot of penetrating power in battle compared to round ball cannons.

 

[ivan salis]

brass / bronze cannons with a round inner bores but hex or oct sided outer shape -- were common in the far east in the days of old * indoinesia made many -- the dutch were well known spice traders and went there often --- I would not find it in the least bit odd to find a old oriental made "bronze cannon" on a dutch vessel --the dutch very wisely used bronze cannons when they could --knowing that they did not rust like cast iron ones did and thus they were much less less likely to "blow up" in your face during battle.

as a merchant seaman , I went to Indonesia while working on LNG ships -- while there I saw such old antique type cannons - they commonly called em --"dragon guns" --Indonesia in the old days were famous "spice islands"- nutmeg, black pepper and others as well and of course coffee -the island of java * was why coffee was called "java" as a nick name.