Why do "officials" (and others) dislike us?!

[Heysenn]

I was just reading through some threads about all the problems we are faced with when trying to MD. I'm young to this hobby and don't understand why this hobby has such a bad reputation.

I see people on their ATVs tearing up places I'm "not supposed" to MD at without permission. Then there are those paint ball people. Young campers who absolutely destroy the camp grounds ... Fishers who trash and litter like the land is a darn dumpster. Hikers who tear up and trash trails. ETC. ETC. ETC. ....

I just don't get it. I fill my holes just as pretty as they were prior to me digging them up ... I throw not only my trash out, but everyone else's trash too!!

What am I missing? What's the back story on this? So frustrating ... The majority of MD's (IMO) are mature adults who take the hobby serious ... So, what's the big freaking deal?!?

I'm talking about parks, churches, fairgrounds, etc. Not historical places or cemeteries. Eek!

<3

 

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[elijahhenry10]

Just because you are going to be responsible and clean your, and others, mess up, not everyone is going to. It's not the masses that ruin it for a few, it's the few that ruin it for the masses.

 

[Iron Patch]

Yeah it's basically like the gun debate except no one dies from unfilled holes.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I was just reading through some threads about all the problems we are faced with when trying to MD. I'm young to this hobby and don't understand why this hobby has such a bad reputation.

I see people on their ATVs tearing up places I'm "not supposed" to MD at without permission. Then there are those paint ball people. Young campers who absolutely destroy the camp grounds ... Fishers who trash and litter like the land is a darn dumpster. Hikers who tear up and trash trails. ETC. ETC. ETC. ....

I just don't get it. I fill my holes just as pretty as they were prior to me digging them up ... I throw not only my trash out, but everyone else's trash too!!

What am I missing? What's the back story on this? So frustrating ... The majority of MD's (IMO) are mature adults who take the hobby serious ... So, what's the big freaking deal?!?

I'm talking about parks, churches, fairgrounds, etc. Not historical places or cemeteries. Eek!

<3

Heysenn, this question has been brought up before, by people who've read forums and gotten wind of various dire rules, or bootings, or other such stories they read about. And they, like you, scratch their heads wondering: how are we hurting anything? I mean, certainly kids make a bigger holes on the beach with sandcastles than ANY md'r ever did, right? Or guys with cleats on soccer fields can CERTAINLY make more scars and marks than any md'r ever did, right? Etc....

Ask yourself: What is the difference between those persons who did damage, and us md'rs ? Here's the difference: those golfers, kids digging, soccer persons, dog walkers who let their dog poop, etc... all didn't ask. MD'rs, on the other hand, ask, get told "no you can't", and thus start threads lamenting that "we can't do such & such". Those other users you list could indeed get the same answer, and could indeed start forums and threads lamenting their restrictions too, if they wanted.

 

[Bum Luck]

The problem is that you're seeing it from your perspective, and you need to see it from theirs.

That is the essence of people problem solving.

Communication is next.

 

[cudamark]

I see it as the "squeeky wheel" syndrome. Nobody cares until there is a complaint. That complaint is usually filed with some governmental agency. Most governmental agencies are basically in the business in keeping their rice bowl filled and not in solving problems. They instead put band-aids on things. The easiest band-aid for them is, "No", you can't do that. It's easier for them to declare that than to investigate the problem and apprehend the actual culprits.

 

[hunter_46356]

I too can't stand the fact that MDing is for some reason not considered like any other recreational hobby. I agree with Tom, in do your home work without asking the question. Most every town or city has their ordinances published on the net these days. If they don't you can simply ask where to find them in black and white. Sometimes the local library has them on file. Do the research without bringing out the question or you will most likely get an answer you don't want to hear or a no simply because the person your talking to hasn't a clue. I'm in an unusual position here cause I'm a local official in the small town I live in. We have 5 Councilmen that represent our community. I for one don't fit what is considered the norm when it comes to being a politician. I'm a retired union carpenter, a Dem that doesn't think the current admin is worth a s_ _t, believe in the 2nd Amendment and have carried for over 37 yrs. I hunt, fish, shoot competitively, Gold prospect and MD too. I will fight to keep our hobby alive at least in my community and be sure I'm not discriminated against when there are no rules against what I'm doing else where. If you really want to MD do the work, research the laws, research the area you hunt, be ethical and leave the area better than you found it. If you find a fellow MDer not doing his part let him know. It's all part of what we need to do to be successful and promote a positive view of our interest.

 

[cudamark]

You don't sound like a Democrat to me!

 

[TreasurePirate69]

There are lots of reasons:

1. Many people view metal detecting as "stealing". Am I stealing something if I walk a dog in the park? How about throwing a frisbee? You might think they are "stealing the funds necessary to maintain the park". But most people don't see it that way. But someone digging up something and taking it with them.... well that's just plain wrong right?!? Note that not everyone feels this way. But if the archeologists think we are in it for the big bucks then surely other people feel the same way. Perhaps it's even a bit of jealousy, I really don't know. The bottom line is that comparing metal detecting to throwing a frisbee or walking a dog is ridiculous. To believe that they are perceived in the same way is just insane.

2. Let's be honest, many metal detectorists look like bums. They are filthy from digging in the dirt. They wear beat up old clothes so that their good ones aren't ruined. Maybe they don't even shave or shower. And would it kill you to smile and say hi to people? Obviously not all of us are like that. But a good many really don't do anything to help make us look good. And if people perceive us as bums that are out trying to scrape up money for our next bottle of booze then that is not going to help our image.

3. Some metal detectorists hang around playgrounds and spook the children/parents. See number 2 above and combine that with going to a playground and detecting while children are there and you'll quickly see why many people look at us suspiciously. As a side note, the best way to combat this type of scrutiny is to take a child with you. A bummy looking guy detecting in a park near children is a creep. A man metal detecting next to his son in a park near children is a candidate for "father of the year".

4. Many metal detectorists have the "I pay taxes so I can go anywhere I want" attitude. Sorry, but this is a baseless claim. The last thing you EVER want to say to a law enforcement officer is "I pay taxes". He is likely to put those taxes to good use by housing you in the local jail. We pay taxes to our governments so that they can be in charge of what public land is used for. We do not "own" the land in any way shape or form. Doubt me? Go try to metal detect on the White House lawn using the excuse "I pay taxes" and see how far you get.

5. Some metal detectorists DON'T ask for permission when they should (yes Tom, I am stomping on your freaking soap box again). They trespass on private land or even use public land that is clearly marked as being off limits. In an slightly different twist to this topic, a couple of years ago I belonged to a local MD club that would meet at public parks once a month. I always assumed that these guys had permission to hold these meetings there. Someone complained and the next thing you know we were kicked out and threatened with legal action. It appears that as long as you went by yourself and detected no one really got too upset about it. But when you hold meetings and commandeer the park's shelter houses without permission they get pretty PO'd about it. I always thought the board members of the club had gotten permission to hold meetings there. But evidently they just figured that they would take Tom's advice. You see Tom, sometimes it's better TO ASK than NOT to ask. The parks departments can get just as mad when you DON'T ask as they can when you DO.

6. Let's face it, digging is destructive or is at least seen as being such. Some metal detectorists exasperate the situation by walking around with a giant shovel. Claiming that digging holes is not as destructive as walking a dog is just foolishness. Even if it technically doesn't hurt the grass as much, other people don't see it that way. Until you take someone and show them your technique and let them see the actual results, they will NEVER believe that you aren't being destructive. I have heard cases where a detectorist has been able to reverse a ruling against detecting by taking the time to show officials the results of using the proper technique of retrieval. Once they see how non-intrusive it can be they may change their minds. Then again, maybe not. The bottom line is that we can rant on and on about how we should be treated no differently than anyone else using the park. But the reality is that we ARE different. We are digging. And those people who don't fill their holes just add insult to injury.

 

[ZR2guy]

I have thought about approaching my local parks admins and proposing the use of a yearly "Metal Detecting Permit" that could be purchased from the Parks and Rec department. The money would go directly to the parks and rec department and we could hunt those parks.The parks are always needing money/volunteers so this way we would be cleaning up the parks while we hunt and giving a little $$ to a good cause.Just a thought.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

I have thought about approaching my local parks admins and proposing the use of a yearly "Metal Detecting Permit" that could be purchased from the Parks and Rec department. The money would go directly to the parks and rec department and we could hunt those parks.The parks are always needing money/volunteers so this way we would be cleaning up the parks while we hunt and giving a little $$ to a good cause.Just a thought.

Good idea. The volunteers angle brings up another point I'll post shortly.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

7. How many of us actually give back to the community? How many actively volunteer or come up with positive ways to promote the hobby? Probably not many. For many people in the hobby it is all about me, me, me. I'm not saying that you have to dedicate your life to helping others. But taking the time to do good deeds once in a while can't hurt.

How about organizing a park cleanup day with your local club? Make signs, leave the detectors at home, and volunteer your time to publicly do something for others. How about talking to the park about helping out at a youth day by bringing detectors so that underprivileged kids can hunt for seeded foreign coins in the sand volleyball courts? Become a known positive force in the community and you will open doors. I know it sounds cheesy, but the reality is that most of us are loners who think of ourselves first and others never. I often fit this category myself so I am trying harder this year to do something about it.

 

[liftloop]

Yeah it's basically like the gun debate except no one dies from unfilled holes.

a round here the 5900 dipro goes so deep to find float copper
it leaves a hole that can swallow a man

 

[Tom_in_CA]

There are lots of reasons:

1. Many people view metal detecting as "stealing". Am I stealing something if I walk a dog in the park? How about throwing a frisbee? You might think they are "stealing the funds necessary to maintain the park". But most people don't see it that way. But someone digging up something and taking it with them.... well that's just plain wrong right?!? Note that not everyone feels this way. But if the archeologists think we are in it for the big bucks then surely other people feel the same way. Perhaps it's even a bit of jealousy, I really don't know. The bottom line is that comparing metal detecting to throwing a frisbee or walking a dog is ridiculous. To believe that they are perceived in the same way is just insane.

2. Let's be honest, many metal detectorists look like bums. They are filthy from digging in the dirt. They wear beat up old clothes so that their good ones aren't ruined. Maybe they don't even shave or shower. And would it kill you to smile and say hi to people? Obviously not all of us are like that. But a good many really don't do anything to help make us look good. And if people perceive us as bums that are out trying to scrape up money for our next bottle of booze then that is not going to help our image.

3. Some metal detectorists hang around playgrounds and spook the children/parents. See number 2 above and combine that with going to a playground and detecting while children are there and you'll quickly see why many people look at us suspiciously. As a side note, the best way to combat this type of scrutiny is to take a child with you. A bummy looking guy detecting in a park near children is a creep. A man metal detecting next to his son in a park near children is a candidate for "father of the year".

4. Many metal detectorists have the "I pay taxes so I can go anywhere I want" attitude. Sorry, but this is a baseless claim. The last thing you EVER want to say to a law enforcement officer is "I pay taxes". He is likely to put those taxes to good use by housing you in the local jail. We pay taxes to our governments so that they can be in charge of what public land is used for. We do not "own" the land in any way shape or form. Doubt me? Go try to metal detect on the White House lawn using the excuse "I pay taxes" and see how far you get.

5. Some metal detectorists DON'T ask for permission when they should (yes Tom, I am stomping on your freaking soap box again). They trespass on private land or even use public land that is clearly marked as being off limits. In an slightly different twist to this topic, a couple of years ago I belonged to a local MD club that would meet at public parks once a month. I always assumed that these guys had permission to hold these meetings there. Someone complained and the next thing you know we were kicked out and threatened with legal action. It appears that as long as you went by yourself and detected no one really got too upset about it. But when you hold meetings and commandeer the park's shelter houses without permission they get pretty PO'd about it. I always thought the board members of the club had gotten permission to hold meetings there. But evidently they just figured that they would take Tom's advice. You see Tom, sometimes it's better TO ASK than NOT to ask. The parks departments can get just as mad when you DON'T ask as they can when you DO.

6. Let's face it, digging is destructive or is at least seen as being such. Some metal detectorists exasperate the situation by walking around with a giant shovel. Claiming that digging holes is not as destructive as walking a dog is just foolishness. Even if it technically doesn't hurt the grass as much, other people don't see it that way. Until you take someone and show them your technique and let them see the actual results, they will NEVER believe that you aren't being destructive. I have heard cases where a detectorist has been able to reverse a ruling against detecting by taking the time to show officials the results of using the proper technique of retrieval. Once they see how non-intrusive it can be they may change their minds. Then again, maybe not. The bottom line is that we can rant on and on about how we should be treated no differently than anyone else using the park. But the reality is that we ARE different. We are digging. And those people who don't fill their holes just add insult to injury.

Hi treasurepirate69, good points. While nothing is ever 100% or "black and white" (on either of our two perspectives), let me take a try at your points:

1) Yes, it is entirely possible that someone will think of the hobby of metal detecting as "stealing". I mean, afterall, let's face it, that ring or quarter or whatever was lost by someone, at some time. And even though in OUR eyes, it would never "see the light of day", yet to other people, they don't know that, and we only look like "opportunists preying on other people's misfortunes". Ok, my answer to that is: how does that get solved by going in and asking, where there are no current specific prohibitions? Because if this is truly someones preconceived bias, then all-the-more reason why they would be about to give you the "no". So I don't deny that this is some people image of us, but not clear why you think going and asking them "can I metal detect?" is going to result in a "yes", in those cases?

2) some of us look like bums? Ok. But what bearing does this have on the issue at hand here? (of whether we should ask ahead of time at public places with no prohibitions)

3) Ok. Well... just like #2, what bearing does this have on the question? Would some city sanction make you or me any less "scary" to those kids? I mean, what do you think you'll do, show them your "permission" from the mayor, and then they'll find you non-scary? And honestly, I don't think we "look scary" or scare moms, etc... ON THE CONTRARY, most of us md'r find ourselves to be KID MAGNETS who are fascinated and want to follow us around. So I dispute this image you portray of us being "scary" to kids, etc...

4) you're right: the fact of "us paying taxes" doesn't allow someone to "do whatever he pleases". But it is a mute point (you'll notice I've never said such a thing when posting on this subject). The fact of paying taxes, or not paying taxes, is not the point (I agree with you). The "point" is, to stay within legal boundaries, and not break laws. Thus, yes, I find that an annoying (baseless) rationale that some people use.

5) Let's leave private land out of this discussion/thread, for sake of clarity. But as for public land (your example of the club using a park), I'd have to know all the particulars about that, to comment. There could have been a rule regarding "group permits" (which has nothing at all to do with detecting). Believe it or not, there are sometimes park rules that "groups" (not sure what # of people defines a "group" though) must reserve ahead. Sometimes, for example, there's sets of tables and BBQs with a little sign to call a certain # to "reserve" them. Perhaps this is what your group ran afoul of? And in which case, would have nothing to do with the subject of md'ing?

But if it WAS the mere act of md'ing that generated this complaint, then my answer is two-fold:

a)First of all, as we all know, this can happen at any time, with even a single hunter. There is simply no way you're going to get the entire world to love you and your hobby. And in-lieu of a possibility of this, if you think the "best way to head that off", is to go to city halls wherever you go, and ask ahead of time "can I detect?", then sure, that might deflect some such complaints (you merely wave your "permission" paper, and they slink away with their tail between their legs, I guess is the image you have?). But THEN the problem becomes, is that you can sometimes get a "no", simply because you asked, even though no one may ever have cared or noticed, and no rule exists saying such a thing. So to me, various random gripes by busy-bodies, do not necessarily mean "therefore, I should have asked". If this really bothers someone that not everyone will love their chosen hobby, then perhaps they've .... chosen the wrong hobby?

b) your story reminds me of a true story that happened to me: There was a particular park, in a particular big city in my state, where .... since as far back as the mid 1970s, has been md'd by anyone and everyone. A very BIG park (which shall go nameless here). There is no "specific" rule in this city's code saying anything specific about detectors. Sure, maybe things that could be "morphed", but nothing specific. Thousands upon thousands of silver coins have come from this park over the years, so one day, a bunch of us through a particular local forum collection, had decided to all go have a "group outing at this park". We all met and were having a fun time, for the first hour or so. But lo & behold, a cop came passing by. I had coincidentally gone up to the street to get something out of my truck, so I was RIGHT THERE on the street watching this unfold. The cop inititally glanced down on the giant field, and slowed to "take in this spectacle" of 20 guys down there spread out over several acres, swinging their geiger-counter thingies. Still though, he kept on going, but then tapped his brakes. Then he went a bit further, and tapped his brakes again. Then he stopped, put it in reverse, and pulled over to the curb. You guessed it, our fun was broken up. Not sure of the exact reason, as he had gone down to talk to some others, not me. Some in our group assumed it was d/t the mere act of metal detecting. Others figured that we had exceeded a group usage #, and the problem would be solved with merely going to the park office and getting a "permit" (no different from any group, and we would not have even mentioned "detecting", I suppose).

In any case, no matter WHAT the reason was for the booting, this became a BIG lesson to me. Because even before that cop had chanced by our location, so too had all the joggers, walkers, bike-riders, etc... all come to a halt, to take in this spectacle. People would ask us: "What are you looking for?", and "is this a club?" etc.... It was a big lesson for me, that whereas a single person or two that metal detect might be ignored. Yet if you put TWENTY people in the same area, only THEN does it start to draw attention. I mean, kind of like if a single guy stood on the street corner picking his nose, you'd probably never notice, right? But if TWENTY people stood on that same street corner picking their noses, you might be inclined to think "Is this a political demonstration?" "Is this a parade?" "Is this a candid camera stunt?" or whatever. Notice that the only thing that changes, is the number of people doing it. NOT the activity in question. So to your club, I sympathize. Not sure if having asked asked ahead of time would have helped, or not. Because I don't know if the reason for your booting was d/t the size of your group (needed a group reservation for that shelters use, etc...), or if it was because you guys were md'ing, or what.

6) Re.: trying to make our hobby equivalent to the innocuous-ness of frisbees or dog walkers (who don't seem to need to ask permission): I would agree with you that this is a not an equivalent illustration, IF our hobby were inherently destructive. But I don't agree that it's necessarily "destructive", therefore I CAN draw an equivalence to frisbees. And besides, "frisbees can poke someone's eye" and be deemed dangerous, if someone thought long enough and hard enough about it. Detecting is only "descructive" if you leave marks of your presence. The minute you do that (leave holes and scars) then yes, we can no longer draw a comparison between ourselves and innocuous activity. However, since I and most hunters have passed "target recovery 101 class", then we leave no trace. Yes I see that you qualify your statement as conceding that even though we may not be "destructive", yet you say: "...is at least seen [by people] as being such". To that I would say, if that is the case (as it most certainly is true that some people have this connotation of us), then a) wouldn't that be ALL THE MORE REASON why you will get a "no" if you go to city hall asking "can I" ? b) again, there is simply no way you're going to get the entire world to love your chosen hobby. I wish it weren't that way treasure-pirate. I wish archies loved me, and all other park users. But to think that having asked first will deflect all such encounters, ..... no, it will not.

I agree that there is probably some presentable examples of someone who a) asked first (even though there were no prohibitions), and b) then got accosted by an irate person c) whipped out their permission, and d) the griper apologized, and slinks off into the sunset. I'm not saying that ABCD couldn't and hasn't happened. But what I AM saying, is that I can give you MANY cases (don't tempt me) of people who asked, and got their towns effectively off-limits, or rules (or at least policies) put into effect, etc... And oddly, these have come from places where it was never an issue before. So you tell me, was it good for those people to have asked? Of course not.

All the issues of potential gripes you bring up (to show we should ask), to me are all solveable by some common sense and discretion. The "group" thing, for example, was where guys made yourself a "sore-thumb" that was just begging for someone to come up and think "oooohhh, I wonder what all those men are doing over there?" As I say, I learned that first-hand the hard-way. As for the other potential gripes (people who think you're "destructive", etc...) I have learned how to stay very "off the radar". I hunt parks at dusk and later, or odd hours like early Sat AM before 8am, etc... NOT that I think I'm necessarily "doing something wrong", but simply to avoid the scrutiny. Let's face it: we're in an odd hobby that has connotations and draws the stares of curious folk. If this is really a problem to someone, and they're skittish and self-conscious (and can't go at odd-times), then .... they should stick to beaches, or private land with permission, etc... Believe me, I wish it wasn't this way, but it is. We're in an odd hobby.

 

[Rawhide]

If its on the internet it has to be true. I have never had any bad encounter with public servants or officials while detecting. Most rules/laws are posted. Had one property owner once call the sheriff about me fishing on the Rio Grande, he felt he owned the whole river since a piece of it went through his front yard. The guy eventually got the city to post no trespassing signs within the city limits. No worrys, I am a registered voter and they get their due. Im sure its a sin to keep good honest people from a day of fishing. As for parks, BLM, State, just stopped and asked the first official/grounds keeper I saw. For all the places they say you cant hunt, there is a 100 more you can. There will always be someone saying no to fun.

 

[ZR2guy]

In the parks that I can hunt, I wish I could show the "powers that be" how much trash I pull out of the ground and then properly throw away. I basically volunteer(clean up) while I hunt and I obviously don't get rich doing it.I just enjoy MD'ing.

 

[coin hunter]

I can't put my figure on it but I think its the body language , moving slow , away from the crowds but visible , people watching you but unsure what you are doing. I think all these traits unfortunately are similar to what people think are sneaky people or up to no good ( thieves ). Somebody standing out in a open field and not moving or moving very slow draws more attention to somebody than would somebody walking across a field. We are curious bunch to most people.

 

[TreasurePirate69]

Hi treasurepirate69, good points. While nothing is ever 100% or "black and white" (on either of our two perspectives), let me take a try at your points:

Sheesh! You managed to turn this into your soap box once again! The QUESTION AT HAND is NOT about asking for permission. The question at hand is "why do officials and others dislike us"? Only #5 of my post deals with issues related to permission. The others have absolutely NOTHING to do with permission at all. But as expected you took almost every single one of my points and turned them into an issue about permission. Un-freaking-believable...

Seriously dude, get help.

 

[hunter_46356]

You don't sound like a Democrat to me!

Some times I wonder myself? I consider myself a "PATRIOT"

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Sheesh! You managed to turn this into your soap box once again! The QUESTION AT HAND is NOT about asking for permission. The question at hand is "why do officials and others dislike us"? Only #5 of my post deals with issues related to permission. The others have absolutely NOTHING to do with permission at all. But as expected you took almost every single one of my points and turned them into an issue about permission. Un-freaking-believable...

Seriously dude, get help.

oops, I incorrectly saw that you were only musing we some people don't like md'rs, and failed to see that you were not saying those various reasons were "reasons to go ask can I". I got the tempo wrong, d/t the other thread, on the other forum, where your name was "on my mind" when I saw it. But you're right, when I read here, those things were not a part of this subject (barring perhaps point #5). So please forgive me for getting carried away, and thinking this was more on that other thread's subject.