Why so hostile ?

[pepperj]

I'm gonna check farther, I agree $63 sounds funny. I'm calling the district office tomorrow.

The amount sounds strange, but I seemed to have missed the amount of time the permit is good for, is each time, or the winter months? Ask how many permits have been issued for this beach, if you're the only one then it might be a little gold mine waiting to be tapped and the $63 entry fee is just the cost of doing business. Is this the only park/beach that's charging a fee? would be another question for the office. Remember the old saying " You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar "
Just a tip always get the name of the person you are talking with, it seems to work well when asking for information as they now know that you know who they are.

 

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[RGINN]

Professional archaeologists get something like $3,000 for each thing they dig up, so we cost them thousands of dollars every time we show up & find something. Best wishes, George (MN)

News to me. Can you cite your source for that figure?

 

[Oregon Viking]

I was thinking about this ...
Why only part of the year ?

Is this when the supervisor is gone on vacation each year ?... And the "employess" sell tickets to the now Un-supervised "show"...
OR...

Is the when the rare Africanized tree frog swamp bug eating toad skinned leopard print gazelle footed moss back gator belly...
Mates and lays it eggs.
And no one can dig because of these endangered eggs ?

Well.....Yeh! How many have you seen lately?

 

[whammy]

Here in central N.Y. we need a permit to hunt the state beaches. 10.00 for the permit, and you can hunt from Labor Day to Memorial day. The summers are for the beach goers to restock the beaches.

 

[cw0909]

if am looking at the right cave run lake
it sounds funny, here is what i found


2015 Supervisor's Orders
DB-10-15: Metal Detecting Prohibitions
PROHIBITED: Use of metal detectors, electronic apparatuses, or any
other devices for the purpose of locating any metal object
Daniel Boone National Forest - Alerts & Notices

Pursuant to 36 C.F.R. 261.50(e), the following persons are exempt from
this Order:Persons with a permit specifically authorizing the otherwise
prohibited act or omission;
• Visitors to Twin Knobs and Zilpo Recreation Areas with a valid permit.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3845177.pdf
Subpart B—Prohibitions in Areas Designated by Order
§ 261.50 Orders.
(e) An order may exempt any of the following persons from any of the
prohibitions contained in the order:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title36-vol2/pdf/CFR-2011-title36-vol2-sec261-50.pdf

source
36 CFR 261.53 - Special closures.

Cave Run Lake
Cave Run Lake is nestled among the rolling hills of northeastern Kentucky.
It is located on theCumberland Ranger District of the Daniel Boone
National Forest.
Daniel Boone National Forest - Cave Run Lake

forgot the regular fees, not as high as the Md fee
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5294940.pdf

 

[DFX DAVE in M.D.]

I can hunt a local Maryland Park Beach from Labor Day till Memorial Day, pretty soon that beach will be frozen like a rock for a few months and nothing will be able to be unearthed. I would hate to pay 63 bucks for a short season.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

patiodadio, it's not everyone who is hostile to the notion of md'ing. For example, it's quite common for strangers to come up to us and ask questions like "what's the best thing you've ever found ?" and "where can I buy one of those?" etc.... The reason why you got the sour-puss reaction at the ranger's , is the following :

Since they are state park type people (COE or whatever), they have no doubt been influenced by the archie mindset of things. And let's be honest: archies (purist ones anyhow) HATE md'rs. So once that mentality creeps in (during their job trainings), then we are seen as those who "rob the past", etc....

So it's only a very small minority of people who have this view. The average joe walking around is nice, genuinely interested, or could care-less-either-way. I docent at a few museums, and have volunteered @ State park work days, etc...., and if there is ever an archie/historian present, this purist-mindset (of "don't touch anything") is present. But beyond those few type folks (and the rangers they train), it is not seen elsewhere.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Professional archaeologists get something like $3,000 for each thing they dig up, so we cost them thousands of dollars every time we show up & find something. Best wishes, George (MN)

Yes. You hit the nail on the head (although I dunno about the dollar values you ascribe, haha) . It's the archie mindset, and those rangers have merely been brainwashed in that way of thinking.

...the best thing to do is stay out of sight and out of mind. Lay low, hunt areas when least amount of public is around ....

Correct. You can spend your life trying to get those few people to "love and adore you", or you can simply avoid them, and go at lower traffic times. So peaceful. So serene

 

[Tom_in_CA]

This is exactly why I scuba - No one bothers me underwater..............

No one ever objected ? Well here's why: You didn't stop and enough ranger kiosks and ask: "Hi, can I metal detect underwater please?" Because if you'd done so, then perhaps YOU TOO would have gotten a "no" (or silly talk of permits, blah blah). Be sure to mention "dig", "take", "remove" and "indian bone". Lest they not understand the full implications of your question.

There are some COE lakes here ......I've never had a ranger say anything to me. ...

Well that simply means you didn't ask enough rangers "Can I?". Now go back and ask. Make us all proud !

 

[BosnMate]

Oregon Viking, I've hunted Sunset Beach at Charleston, and that takes a permit. At least it did at the time. I got the permit from the guy at the kiosk in the entrance to the camp ground. Basically what it said was I promise to turn anything of value over to the state guy at the kiosk, and they would return it to the owner, and if in what ever length of time it's not claimed I can have it. I agreed and asked if it meant just on the beach, and he said no, anywhere in the park, which surprised the daylights out of me. On the other side of the point there is a beach with a rough trail down below the cliffs. Over the years, after a big storm people have found Spanish coins there. The galleons from the Philippines made landfall far north of their destination, and they figure one hit the rocks off Point Arago, broke up and part of it made it to the beach. Anyhow, all I found there was some fishing stuff, sinkers etc. Not many people go down there. When I was on Sunset Beach I had a cranky guy come up to me and gruffly say, "You need a permit yada yada yada." I just said, "I know, I got one, it's in the truck." He walked off and nobody else said anything. My lunch was in a paper bag in the back of my truck, and the sea gulls and crows got that, including the chips and sandwich. I had a fun day of hunting, and when I left I took all my finds, pop tabs, nails where someone made a bonfire out of pallets, Budwiser nuggets, fishing lures and lead sinkers and a couple of bucks in clad, all mixed together, over the kiosk and the same guy was on duty. Told him, "Here's what I found, you can pick anything you think is valuable out." He didn't think I was funny, but I wanted him to know that we don't come away with nothing but diamond rings and rolex watches. I also detected Bastendorf Beach, which is a county park, but the state owns all the beaches and according to the state employee in the kiosk you have to have a permit to detect all state beaches in Oregon. This time I didn't have a permit and nobody said a thing. We were camped there and crabbing, and that's where the grandson and friends were with me, and I found my deep quarter, along with Budwieser nuggets and all the rest of the beach goodies, but no gold. I hunted the beach at Port Orford. I think there is only one policeman in the town, and I asked him if he thought anyone cared if I detected the beach. The officer said he didn't think anyone cared, and to go for it. Found a bronze square nail, and a buffalo nickle, and a pocket spill of clad kind of back from the beach, but the tide was out, and I was finding out the hard way about wet sand and the MXT, which is why I bought a DFX. Also at Winchester I've hunted the county park and camp ground, and the beach at the mouth of the Umpqua River and never asked anyone. But the park at the Umpqua light house required a permit, which was easier to get but the guy to issue the permit was hard to find, and that wasted some time. Hunted the picnic area, and one of the guys I was with found a silver dime. I didn't find much of anything. The ATV area in the dunes is county, and it is nothing but can slaw and Bud nuggets -- to me a very discouraging place to hunt because of the amount of garbage in the sand.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... but the state owns all the beaches and according to the state employee in the kiosk you have to have a permit to detect all state beaches in Oregon. This time I didn't have a permit and nobody said a thing. .........

What ?? You were told you needed a permit, but went anyways without one ? And now you come on a public forum announcing this ? No doubt the G-men monitor this forum, and will most certainly come bust you looking for those budweiser can nuggets and quarter you found. Tsk Tsk.

As for the part about the turning in anything of value to the kiosk, actually, if we all looked "long enough and hard" enough, this is not unique to ANY speck of public land in the entire USA. I mean, there are, afterall, lost & found laws present in every state. Born out of wandering cattle laws. And rules about "harvest", "take", "collect", etc... (lest some numb-skull think he can take home the park benches, or harvest all the tree bark off the trees, etc...).

And humorously, in New York, where similar such wording is in place (turn in all valuables), yet the park's dept has YET to receive any rings, valuables, etc... despite many permits having been passed out. So you tell me: Is it because none of them ever finds anything ? Hence it's only a matter of time, when such a permit was/is dreamed up, before it's simply revoked as un-workable, riddled with silly-ness, etc... Better that there's no permit, and it's just silent on the subject either way. And the BEST way to ensure that, is to not have it ever become a "pressing issue" in need of their "princely sanction" of permissions.

 

[BosnMate]

One more thing. In Oregon, I think the feds are more hen house than the state, and the state worse than the county. Douglas County didn't care at all, until someone screwed up some sprinkler heads, and I guess now you need a permit from the county. Anyhow, the Archies have the feds by the huevos, and I think the Feds are cranky because the Archies pinch --- hard. Over in the Winema National Forest it is illegal to pick up anything over 50 years old. Some guys made the news paper when they were busted for looking for bottles in a dump at a World War Two logging camp. They had found a couple of log cabin syrup bottles and the Feds figured that was almost the end of the world, and they were fined. I should put this in the political forum so I can say what I really think, but I'll let it go for now.

 

[BosnMate]

What ?? You were told you needed a permit, but went anyways without one ? And now you come on a public forum announcing this ? No doubt the G-men monitor this forum, and will most certainly come bust you looking for those budweiser can nuggets and quarter you found. Tsk Tsk.

Do you suppose if I look contrite and say I'm sorry, it would do any good? One thing about Oregon Beaches. It's not like California down around Pismo Beach, up here there are very few days when anyone is willing to wear a bathing suit at the beach. Up here people go to the beach, wearing heavy clothing, build a huge fire, drink beer and throw the empty cans in the fire.
View attachment 1225592
This is Sunset Beach, note the overwhelming crowds of people loosing stuff at the beach. I will admit the picture was taken during the week and not on a holiday. There are days when the beach can be crowded, but in a normal year there aren't many days when lots of people are sunbathing or swimming in the ocean. Down by Port Orford there is a beach where they do a lot of surfing, but those folks are wearing wet suits.

 

[patiodadio]

Whew, been on the phone with several folks today. First of all I want to apologize to the Corp of Engineers ! Everyone I talked with was super nice and helpful. Turns out the land around Cave Run Lake is 99 % managed by the US forrest service. They were the people I talked with yesterday, not the COE.
The less than friendly folks at the forrest service say "Yes you can't MD anywhere because of disturbing the archaeological sites, but yes you can buy a $63 dollar permit to MD only on the beach, only after Nov. 1st".
$$$63 dollars for a permit to look only on the beach ?? The guy I talked with said they sell lots of them when I asked if anyone had ever bought one. I think he is full of baloney !

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... The less than friendly folks at the forrest service say "Yes you can't MD anywhere because of disturbing the archaeological sites....

Well, I dunno about this "permit" and certain dates bologna, but wanted to say that if they tried to say blanket "no" on US forest land (NFS), they're wrong. Read and weep:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5261774.pdf

Oh sure, there might be stuff in there about finding (gasp) an old coin. Ok FINE, then don't "find" any old coins (my math never was that good anyhow).

And I know you mean well patiodadio. By all your "seeking clarifications" from various pencil pushers there. But ....... the more people go into ranger stations, and calling etc... asking for if they can or can't metal detect, merely brings about the VERY situation that your post started with: Ie.: "Why the hostility?" and "why the no's?".

It comes from the "pressing issue" being put on their plate for approval and permission and sanctions. As if this were some evil or dangerous thing that needed permissions. Lest why would you ask, if it's innocuous and harmless ? Thus the psychology is, that the repeated inquiries eventually end up on an archie's desk, and sure enough, you can GUESS where that is going to go.

So in the future, look it up for yourself. If you print that out and carry it, presto, you're golden if someone griped. But sure, use common sense and don't tromp on a historic sensitive sacred monument. But for run-of-mill beaches, I think some md'rs make this more difficult than it is.

 

[patiodadio]

Well, I dunno about this "permit" and certain dates bologna, but wanted to say that if they tried to say blanket "no" on US forest land (NFS), they're wrong. Read and weep:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5261774.pdf

Oh sure, there might be stuff in there about finding (gasp) an old coin. Ok FINE, then don't "find" any old coins (my math never was that good anyhow).

And I know you mean well patiodadio. By all your "seeking clarifications" from various pencil pushers there. But ....... the more people go into ranger stations, and calling etc... asking for if they can or can't metal detect, merely brings about the VERY situation that your post started with: Ie.: "Why the hostility?" and "why the no's?".

It comes from the "pressing issue" being put on their plate for approval and permission and sanctions. As if this were some evil or dangerous thing that needed permissions. Lest why would you ask, if it's innocuous and harmless ? Thus the psychology is, that the repeated inquiries eventually end up on an archie's desk, and sure enough, you can GUESS where that is going to go.

So in the future, look it up for yourself. If you print that out and carry it, presto, you're golden if someone griped. But sure, use common sense and don't tromp on a historic sensitive sacred monument. But for run-of-mill beaches, I think some md'rs make this more difficult than it is.

Sorry to have cause a big stink. Normally I would have just gone ahead and not asked. But I recently was run out of a state park and I had to go thru a gate to get to the beach so I had to ask. I agree that its best to just keep a low profile. I guess I am just old school, from a time when America was a different place than it is today.
Thanks for the link, I will print it and keep it with me.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Sorry to have cause a big stink. Normally I would have just gone ahead and not asked. But I recently was run out of a state park and I had to go thru a gate to get to the beach so I had to ask. I agree that its best to just keep a low profile. I guess I am just old school, from a time when America was a different place than it is today.

No biggee. That's why this board exists, to get the pro's and con's of stuff like this. We've all "been there done that" and found ourselves to be a victim of "no one cared UNTIL you asked psychology".

As for doing this defensively because you'd been "run out of some place", yes I agree that is the knee-jerk reaction to "scrams" like that, is to ask at every future place you come to. And on the surface, that *seems* like the solution. But the downside is, that it can create "no's" where no one previously cared less at (till you asked).

And also don't think that even if you got "yes's" from some pencil pusher, that you're out of the woods to hunt nilly-willy to your heart's content. There's been countless stories of persons getting a "yes" from city hall, only to still be hassled in the field. And when the md'r proudly whips out their permission, guess what happens? The busy-body gets on his cell-phone, calls to headquarters and says "... but he's tearing the place up!" (which isn't true, of course). So, sometimes you just have to develop a thick skin for this hobby, and know how to avoid those singular persons (1 in 100,000 who cares less). Because we're in a hobby with connotations. And not every last person earth is going to like it.

I wish it weren't that way, and that red carpets were rolled out for us, but ... alas, it aint gonna happen.

Hey, by the way, aren't you looking for the ring you lost last week there anyhow ?

 

[releventchair]

Sheesh at $63 a shot... You would think they would allow detecting year round...
Talk about making some money.
Guess they only like money part of the year there.

Maybe they seed it real good?

 

[ARC]

Maybe they seed it real good?

YEah... lol... the guy at the desk takes your money... pockets $60... and chages out 3 dollars for change...
Says he will be right back...
Goes in the back office... out the back door and chucks the change across an open field...
Walks back in and hands you some piece of notebook paper then proceeds to tell you...

"ok you are good to go... here is your permit" ...

"oh ... I almost forgot... Only one rule... you can only detect the field behind this office building".

 

[1320]

Whew, been on the phone with several folks today. First of all I want to apologize to the Corp of Engineers ! Everyone I talked with was super nice and helpful. Turns out the land around Cave Run Lake is 99 % managed by the US forrest service. They were the people I talked with yesterday, not the COE.
The less than friendly folks at the forrest service say "Yes you can't MD anywhere because of disturbing the archaeological sites, but yes you can buy a $63 dollar permit to MD only on the beach, only after Nov. 1st".
$$$63 dollars for a permit to look only on the beach ?? The guy I talked with said they sell lots of them when I asked if anyone had ever bought one. I think he is full of baloney !

He's not full of baloney, they sell quite a few of them. I'm local to Cave Run, I know of a handful of folks just from around here that buy them. I'll try to get down there November 1st and snap a picture. But trust me on this, that beach gets hit all summer long. Back in the late 90's, the Camp Grounds were maintained by civilian contractors and they crawled all over the beach after closing time. I was a volunteer for a summer, didn't have an interest in detecting back then or I could and would have joined them.