✅ SOLVED 44 Revolver Engraved Cylinder

[villagenut]

Not dug by me but was given to me from someone who found it on a job site excavation. I know it is a 44 but that is about it. It is engraved with sailing vessels all the way around and has NEW MODEL 44 on the cylinder as well. There is an S below a star and a circle with ELG and another star below those letters. What kind of revolver was this and who was the maker? There is also a (looks like) 1755 on the chamber side, probably a serial number?Don't know how it could have come out of the ground in this condition, unless it is a reproduction. Not being a gun guy, I have no clue on this one. It will make a good paper weight if nothing else. Thanks vn

 

[Slingshot]

Nice find! During the War of Northern Aggression the US Army required .44 caliber revolvers for it's "as issue" sidearm. It was considered necessary for Infantry and Cavalry troops to have a sidearm capable of stopping a charging horse at 25 yards, and the big .44 revolvers of that era reputedly could do this, and were known as "Army" models. The US Navy had found that for their requirements that the .36 pistol had enough power for sea warfare, and was the "as issue" sidearm for Sailors and Marines, so .36 revolvers are known as "Navy" models. This also solved any logistical ammo purchase and supply problems, as the Army only issued .44 ammo, and likewise the Navy only issued .36 ammo, both being paper cartridge type, but of course the revolvers could also be loaded with loose powder and ball should the need arise.
Most of the .44 revolvers used by the US Army were issued to Cavalry troops, with the remainder being issued to certain grade officers and special troops, such as Couriers. The regular ground-pounder Infantry soldier was issued a rifle and bayonet, but was allowed to carry any sidearm that he supplied to himself through private purchase, enemy captured equipment, and battlefield pickup. These ranged from older design single shot pistols, to the newer revolver types, and ran anywhere from .22 to .76 in caliber. The 1851 Navy model revolver was the most commonly carried as a privately owned sidearm amongst the regular Infantry troops. The ability to be able to backup a single shot rifle with six more loaded shots was something many ground troops desired.
The Confederate forces issued anything they could get their hands on. The Confederate Cavalry commander Nathan Bedford Forrest forbid his troops from carrying anything other than .36 revolvers as a sidearm, as he considered the .44's to be a "waste of powder and lead" and also solved any logistical resupply problems for their sidearms. The smaller .36's served his command well and performed with enough lethality on the battlefield to be satisfactory. On an aside, many of his troops carried sawed off double barrel shotguns for their first 2 shots, then falling back to use their pistols, which most of his men tried to carry 2 or more revolvers of .36 caliber. The "Forrest Thump" of heavy firepower was well known to many larger US Army formations who had the dubious honor of tangling with this smaller, fast moving, and hard hitting Confederate Cavalry unit.
After formal hostilities came to an end in 1865, many veterans continued to carry the cap and ball revolvers well past the appearance of the cartridge revolvers, as it was believed that the older design pistols hit harder than the cartridge models, and these pistols saw much more action in the Western US frontier. Wild Bill Hickok carried a pair of "Navy" .36 revolvers of the Colt 1860 pattern with rounded barrels and ratchet loading levers as opposed to the older 1851 design, and as is well documented there is no question to their speed of operation or lethality.
Now that I've wasted half your day with an informal history lesson, at least you should now know the difference between the NAVY and ARMY sidearms of that era were actually only in reference to their caliber.
Very nice find, and I hope it turns out to be an original Cylinder from one of these historic firearms. In a decade of dedicated relic hunting I never found a pistol or any part of one, though I was often taunted by finding fired .36 and .44 pistol balls on the battlefields around Atlanta. I carry an 1860 .44 Army replica revolver on my farm, loaded with 10 grains of FFF and as much homemade swan shot as will fill the first two chambers, followed with 3 more chambers loaded with 27 grains of FFF and a round ball for pest control, and always carry the hammer down over an empty chamber for safety.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Pretty sure it is one of the Belgian Centaure reproductions, lots of info here on proof marks and such. 1960NMA.org

Now we might have something.... I have heard of the Belgian pistols made in the 50's and 60's but I don't know that I've actually seen one. From looking at that site the proof mark would date the cylinder between 1952 and 1968. That would explain the wear, and the aged look. I'm looking at total production numbers for these guns, and there really weren't a lot of them made which would mean that parts for them are scarce. I think I would contact that site and ask them about it. Could be worth some $$$ to the right guy.

 

[huntsman53]

Yep, it appears that l.cutler hit it on the nail head! Check out the site at the link below, then scroll down to the pics showing 4 cylinders titled "Centaure cylinder evolution (left to right): C&B, Thuer, LCC, Richards" and "Breech view of the cylinders (left to right): C&B, Thuer, LCC, Richards". I am pretty sure that the first one on the left is identical to villagenut's cylinder with "New Model 44" stamped on it and all!

Centaure Long Cylinder Conversion


Frank

 

[cw0909]

found these 2, the wiki mentions NEW MODEL, dont know if that was stamp on it though
Cylinder with nipples - engraved for reproduction Colt 1860 Army revolver. Made by Pietta.
Dixie Gun Works muzzleloading, blackpowder and rare antique gun supplies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_1858#Model_series

these are sort of like the ones, the guy i knew did, and called them specials or
commemorative from the replicas that were produced in the 50s.60s
http://www.horstheld.com/1074-f.JPG
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Colt_Factory_engraved.JPG

 

[cw0909]

Frank,yes looks like it
http://www.1960nma.org/Conversions/Centaure Long Cylinder Conversion-26.10.11_files/image036.gif
http://www.1960nma.org/Conversions/Centaure Long Cylinder Conversion-26.10.11_files/image038.gif

 

[cw0909]

took a snip
http://www.1960nma.org/Conversions/Centaure Long Cylinder Conversion-26.10.11_files/image036.gif

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Colt Navy model in '36 cal, many carried a spare cyinder for faster reloading in an emergency. You could change cylinders faster than you could reload a single chamber. The Navy model had a sailing picture roll embossed around the cylinder.

The army model was .44

The saddle holsters were for the Colt Walker, a far larger version, an earlier pistol. In many ways it approached our preset .44 magnum in power,

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

rel chair, the .36 round ball had sufficient powr, it was equivelent to a modern high speed .38 special due to it's round ( blunt ) shape. It was a favorite with western sheriffs. Hickock did just fine with his.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi boson Mate, that was the reason for the recessed cap set, plus flash over,

 

[releventchair]

rel chair, the .36 round ball had sufficient powr, it was equivelent to a modern high speed .38 special due to it's round ( blunt ) shape. It was a favorite with western sheriffs. Hickock did just fine with his.

Hickock would have used a .44 if horses under riders were targeted.

 

[villagenut]

Thanks to all for bring this cylinder into a better light. Lots of good info, you guys are great

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Well, being a Centaure cylinder would explain why I thought it was much older than it is. When those pistols were being made, they took original pistols from a collection and made exact copies of them. It's a really cool find and I'm guessing pretty scarce since the production numbers were really low.

 

[huntsman53]

Colt Navy model in '36 cal, many carried a spare cyinder for faster reloading in an emergency. You could change cylinders faster than you could reload a single chamber. The Navy model had a sailing picture roll embossed around the cylinder.

Yes, it is well known that Colonel John Singleton Mosby (the Gray Ghost) carried Colt 1851 Navy .36 caliber Revolvers during the Civil War and I believe that he required some of his' men and especially his' Officers in the Mosby's Rangers (43rd Battalion Virginia Calvary) to carry them as well due to their ease of cylinder change. Mosby himself was well known to carry several extra loaded cylinders for his' 1851 Navy Revolver. It is likely that he and his' men that carried Colt 1851 Navy Revolvers, left the barrel wedge screw out of their' revolvers or only lightly tightened the screw by hand to make removal of the barrel wedge much faster and thus removal of the barrel and change of the cylinder much faster. I once had an genuine Colt 1851 Navy .36 caliber Revolver that was etched with J.S. Mosby on the grip frame but there was no way to document that it was ever owned or carried by the famous Colonel. It was one piece out of a 22 piece Colt SAA Revolver Collection that I was purchasing from an old man (I won't call him a gentleman due to what he did) who reneged on the signed contract/agreement when he found out that I was going through a divorce. Even though I was adamant that the Colt Revolvers were not mentioned in the Divorce Settlement, I had to return the revolvers to him and he would not let me have them back after my' Divorce was finalized.


Frank

 

[BosnMate]

I've got to disagree with those that think an 1851 can quickly and easily change cylinders. Leave the screw out or loose, and you are going to loose that wedge someplace down the road. First off, the gun ends up in three parts -- are you on a galloping horse? How many hands do you have. Secondly, some place in my pile of stuff, I have an empty box of paper cartridges for the .36 caliber Colt. I reckon while you are looking for the dropped wedge, I'll beat you by using paper cartridges. For those not familiar, the paper cartridge contains the powder and ball. The end of paper tube is ripped off, and the powder dumped in the chamber hole in the cylinder, then the ball is rammed paper and all, and finally the cylinder is capped, and Colt had a really slick brass capper that speed-ed that operation up a lot.
Regarding the Belgium repos, the very first black powder firearm I purchased was a .44 Colt Army Belgium repo, back in 1962. The gunsmith that sold me the gun said it was so exact that original colt parts could be interchanged. I asked him if the repo was that close, how could you tell it was a repo and not get ripped off buying an antique. He told me that the rifling on the originals was a right hand twist, and the repo was a left hand twist. Sounds good, but I don't know the truth of it. No matter, he sold me the gun. I took it out to a burrow pit behind the house, loaded up all six shots, greased the balls to prevent flash over, using Vaseline. Fired the gun and discovered Vaseline melts at to low a temperature. All six shots went off at the same time. I was by myself and you probably could have knocked my eyeballs off with a stick, but I didn't get hurt, and neither did the gun. After that I got some stiffer grease and have never had a problem since. I use water pump grease, but I don't know if you can buy that anymore. Over the years there have been many old and new .44's, but my collection is going bye bye to pay for doctor bills. Old age sucks, the golden years just means all your gold goes out to the doctors.
Regarding flash overs and movies. In the movie "Gettysburg," Lee was trying to flank the Union I believe at little round top, and Chamberlain was in command of the 20th Main, defending that flank. In the movie, the Rebs are advancing up the hill, the Union line is shooting, and the actor playing Chamberlain is standing up, shooting his .44 army, and if flashes across. You got to be quick to see it, but when the gun flashes and all six chambers fire, he turns the gun, and with a shocked look on his face is looking at the pistol wondering what the heck happened. Most people wouldn't catch that, but guys that have had it happen will pick up on it.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I had a flash over once, scared the heck out of me, lucky for me it was on the fifth shot and only one cylinder went. It left a streak of lead on the side of the barrel and the end of the wedge. Basically the same deal, cheap grease, a hot southern day and I didn't notice that most of the grease was soaked into the holster.... Never made that mistake again.