A rant about treasure legends

[Tom_in_CA]

All of us md'rs love a good treasure story. The "lost mine" and "stage coach" loot stories sold tons of treasure magazines back in the 1960s & 70's afterall. And they all sound so iron clad true. I guess the human mind wants SO hard to believe (lest you be "left out"), that you subconsciously put aside skepticism. So you have all these treasure legends that are out there (Oak Island, etc...) . T'net has an entire subforum where multiple ones are broken out for individual discussion. And T'net members bring up new ones all the time from their specific locales.

But has anyone ever noticed all these recurring threads of similarity:

a) Seems that the bigger the cache is supposed to be, then the more deeper it must be. This is a dead giveaway when the person posting needs a detector that "detects 3 meters deep". And if it's a REALLY big cache, well then by golly it can be in solid rock, or shear rock cliffs (never mind asking yourself how the person who buried it ever got it up there), or with insurmountable boobie traps.

But didn't anyone ever stop to think, that if the person who was hiding it ever intended to come back for it, would he have hidden it in such a way that it takes heavy equipment to retrieve it ? And what difference does 3 ft. versus 30 ft. make to how well it's hidden ?? If the surface is covered up and indiscernable, then it makes no difference 3 vs 30 ft.. Either one is equally unseen from the surface to the next passerby.

b) And this always brings me a chuckle: The suppose clues, signs, treasure markings, codes, etc.... If someone's intention was to "hide" something (and they go to great lengths making it insanely deep, etc...) then why oh why oh why is that person inclined to turn around, and mark the spot with clues, signs, codes, maps, etc... ? What? So that the next person can merely go find the thing they just "hid" ? It defies logic .

 

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[MUDSLINGER]

OK for the sake of discussion Tom: Human behavior is not logical as your argument proposes. Hiding something of value was in most cases predictable. Grandma hid her egg money. Dad hid his liquor money. I as a kid hid my money in the unfinished basement of our house. Because everyone did not like the cobwebs and were afraid of the dark basement. People of wealth down to the modest laborer had to secure their money somewhere. In the mattress or the root cellar or in the chicken coop. Chickens were a great alarm back in the day. Now for the thieves who held up banks and robbed army payroll it would have been imperative to stash or hide the ill gotten gains as not to be caught with it. The ground was a great hiding place. As for marking it's location or making a map is in the real of possibilities. The person hiding something in a hurry would be afraid of forgetting where, thus losing it. Why do women shoppers have to feel every sheet or smell everything before they buy it? Not logical. Also remember old news stories were usually based in at least some facts. To your point stories did get retold and exaggerations did creep in distorting some elements like 1ft became 3ft deep or 1,000. became 10,000. in gold. Caches have been found just like the rusty cans of gold found in Ca. a couple years back. So all things are possible.

 

[1320]

The John Swift Silver Mines legend defies my logic.....dude suddenly went blind and couldn't find his way back....lol. And of course, the men that helped him mine the silver were killed or died.....

 

[Honest Samuel]

May God bless the late John Swift.

 

[Gaspipe]

Bottom line ....Oak Island , Lost Dutchman , Bigfoot , Giants , Forrest Fenn.. Blah, blah blah is pure 100% fertilizer and because they are aired on the History Channel or Discovery they are supposed to become credible. As Forrest Gump said stupid is as stupid does.

 

[gunsil]

Yeah Tom, I never could take all those "leads" in those magazines, or most of the stories. Karl VonM said most caches are never buried more than an arm's length in depth and the few recoveries I know about as true were between 1 & 2 feet deep. I know stuff I buried over the years was never more than a foot below the surface although the hole was deeper for a five gallon bucket but the top of the bucket was barely down one foot. There are many stories of buried Rev war things in my area, (cannonball stashes, Tory silver, etc) but if one really studies the area and the stories the less likely true they seem to be. Once heard of an old timer nearby who buried some pistols and a bunch of cash, went there after he died and his house was torn down for a development and found the now useless rusted pistols (re-buried them elsewhere since they had no value), but no cash. These local never published stories can be somewhat true I suppose, but they are usually embellished if true at all. (Why would the old timer bury money and die in poverty?) There are certainly still great caches out there waiting to be found (mobster stuff, etc), but these folks who chase the Dutchman and a lot of other well used tales are chasing their tails I think.

 

[luvsdux]

I'm really curious if they find the treasure of Oak island (if it exists) how the whole thing was set up a few hundred years agol
luvsdux

 

[Tom_in_CA]

thanx guys for the replies.

mudsling & gunsil : That gold coin hoard in CA (and scores of other caches accidentally stumbled on by gardeners, electricians, kids playing, etc......) show that caches need-not necessarily be a) deep, b) boobie-trapped, etc....

Here's a test for the likelihood of crazy difficult hiding places: If you've ever been in boot-camp, and had to dig a fox-hole 6 ft. deep .... or if you're a bottle digger, you know what it's like to dig 6 ft. deep. Ok, now figure you've got a jar or toolbox side object you're hiding. And presumably you're trying to be quick and discreet while hiding your object ....... It just makes no sense. Mind you: It's no more "hidden" at 1 ft. versus 10 ft, if the surface remains indiscernible.

Mudslinger: Yup, after awhile, all those old treasure magazine yarns started to sound exactly alike: "The dying cowboy drags himself into the wild west saloon. The lone survivor of an indian attack. Curious on-lookers gather around to hear him spin the tale of his fabulous hidden wealth. He's whisked to the doctor, but dies of his wounds before being able to reclaim his wealth. Here's the 4 clues ..... " Blah blah blah.

In fact, a buddy of mine even submitted one of those stories, that got accepted and published. Totally made up. He did it to get the $50 (or whatever ) publication fee payment for accepted articles. But hey: Throw in a few faded newspaper clippings (starting with actual names and dates of some actual event), throw in a drawing of a miner posed next to his burro , and .... by golly IT MUST BE TRUE. We got a good laugh wondering if anyone ever actually set out looking for that one.

 

[Deft Tones]

I'd wager the vast majority of unrecovered caches remain undiscovered because they are unknown. No legend, no story, no witness.

For example, a traveler on horseback stops outside a strange town along a creek, bluff, etc., perhaps conceals the valuables somewhat hastily, and perhaps marks a tree or rock. If for some unfortunate turn of events the cache isn't recovered it's very unlikely that,

1. Anyone else even knows of the cache.
2. Any marks made in the surrounding environment would mean anything to anyone else but the creator of those marks.
3. There is any way to locate similar hasty caches except by dumb luck.

 

[MUDSLINGER]

Tom: yes you can make a case against those stories printed in true treasures and other mags from that era. However faded paper clippings often reported robberies and hermits that when deceased would set off a search by relatives for the person's money. Though the reporter might have the facts for the front part of the robbery what happened after that usually is based on speculation ( a witness saw the robber head north on the road that leaves town). To your point about how deep something is buried is a good one. Marks on trees and rocks I do believe may however bare more significance. Humans can be pretty darn dumb at times and marking a tree or a trail with a symbol that only he understands seems plausible to me.

 

[Muddyhandz]

Did a little research on the legendary Yamashito gold because I've been dating a Philipina for a few years and EVERYONE from that country still thinks the gold is buried in their yards.
That stone slab in their backyard isn't called a septic tank. Nope, that's the marker for Japanese gold!
It has already been documented that a fellow spent years looking for it based on a hunch and a map and eventually found it.
Well documented that he found the golden Buddha filled with diamonds and stacks of gold bars with the Japanese mark, along with the remains of Japanese soldiers, as Yamashito killed anyone who knew of it's location.
Word eventually got to greedy Marcos and he arrested the treasure hunter, seizing all his booty. This also was well documented. People are like "where did Marcos get all that wealth from?"
Anyway, without the long history lesson, let's skip to when the people of the Philipines dethrone the corrupt Marcos.
Why then was the treasure hunter awarded billions (pesos?) in what was known as the largest settlement ever given to treasure hunter?
Yet for some reason everyone still thinks Yamashito's gold is still out there.

Honestly, I believe that a lot of lengends were true but most treasures were already found back in the day.
I think us modern day hunters think we're superior with our technology but before all the major development, things were easier to find, especially with landmarks intact.
Treasure hunting was in vogue back in the Victorian period and many fitted the "Indiana Jones" image to a tee.

The thing is Tom, you can rant about it over and over again but do you want to be the one who left the floater in the swimming pool?
What if I started a rant post about Christmas this time of year?
It's so illogical that people are frantically running around like chickens with their heads cut off, looking for material gifts that they saw on the idiot-tube where society tells us we need to consume like crazy in the name of some holy avatar, yet we decorate dead trees (in a Pagan tradition) telling our children that a guy with a beard in a red suit (image created by Coca Cola) will deliver gifts after sliding down the chimney from his sleigh parked on the roof that was driven by flying reindeer.......

People would be pissed with me for ruining their "Christmas Spirit."
You Tom, are a big treasure hunting humbug! Telling thousands of people on a treasure hunting forum that treasure legends are bogus.
Don't you know by now that humans need something to believe in?
Peace.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....It has already been documented that a fellow spent years looking for it based on a hunch and a map and eventually found it.
Well documented that he found the golden Buddha filled with diamonds and stacks of gold bars with the Japanese mark, along with the remains of Japanese soldiers, as Yamashito killed anyone who knew of it's location.
Word eventually got to greedy Marcos and he arrested the treasure hunter, seizing all his booty. This also was well documented.......

Muddy, thanx for taking time to comment on this thread ! Yes, I'm a skeptic Skepticism results in MORE goodies found. Not less goodies found. Because the skeptic has critical thinking that hones his time spent on LIKELY "treasures", not unlikely treasures. This is how I'm at 14 gold coins so far, and hold 2nd place for # of reales found in CA, etc....

AS for that Yamishita legend, this is just so classic. I know the story you speak of well. Sure: Supposedly the treasure was found, eh ? But lo & behold it was all stolen from him. So there's nothing to document or prove it now. Other than this guy's story (and he's long since passed away, so the story lives on by his son, etc....) Yup. But rest assured, it's "iron-clad", and beyond doubt now , right ?

I see this trend over and over again amongst the "faithful". They will always use the words "found" . As in, past tense, or "utterly certain". Such that, ..... 40 or 50 yrs. later, it just enters in the lore as: "Was found" (or "well documented", in this case, to use your words).

This has been seen on the T'net forum too. Where some sincere person comes on that they've "found gold bars". They just need to know how to dig 6 meters deep to get them. Or "what's the best detector to get them ?" (because they have the location down to a single acre of land, etc....). And when you quiz them as to this treasure the "found", you come to find out they have not actually seen or found it yet. But they are 100% certain it's in this small cave or meadow or whatever (based on funny symbols on rocks they saw, or an old map that was passed down to them, or a cryptogram they solved, etc... ). But at no point in time will they ever say they have NOT "found" it. So in their mind's eyes, they've "found" a treasure.

Or how about the example of those guys in the news that said they "found" the location of gold treasure buried during the civil war. They honed it down to the grave spot in a CW historic monument cemetery . Sound like the plot of a Clint Eastwood Spaghetti western movie, eh ? So they sought permission to dig up the grave from the proper govt. authorities. Naturally they were denied permission. And they went through tremendous legal channels to overturn this denial. And when you viewed the youtube videos, or read their printed materials, you see the same phenomenon: They "found" it. They are not saying any words like "possible" or "I think" or "maybe", etc.... It is most certainly there. But the big bad govt. was forbidding them to dig up their treasure.

So too is it with the Yamashita lore. People read that same story you read. And I have no doubt that the character was convinced he'd found it. Yet others snuck in and got it all. And all his vocabulary is ... no doubt, in the past tense, 100% certain vernacular. This is just how strong the lore is. And .... 40 or 50 yrs. later, you read the story, and .... how can you doubt it ?

 

[releventchair]

So,Tom in CA:
If I get a message to you somehow due to my untimely demise, you ain' t going to see that my treasure gets recovered?
Wait , which cache site was it now.......dang it.
Better start writing stuff down I guess.

Footings here need to be around four foot to avoid frost heaving. Months of frozen ground needs considered.
Yes below the frost line items are safer from pick axe ,dynamite ,jackhammers, backhoes ect..
Having recovered a cache of my own from frozen ground , there are better ways to secure something than greater depth or substrate though, and while shallow has risks ;convenience is not one of them.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

So,Tom in CA:
If I get a message to you somehow due to my untimely demise, you ain' t going to see that my treasure gets recovered?....

A common come-back to skepticism of treasure legends (as my post here) will be

1) the knee-jerk reaction to point to a past tense reality of an actually recovered one somewhere. Which is beyond doubt, documented, and was actually true afterall.

2) Give an example of why such a treasure really could exist, by pointing out (like you did here), that it's entirely possible that someone like yourself buries it, tells someone else on their deathbed, etc.... This actually happened in Watsonville, CA a few years ago: A fellow tells his brother that he buried silver in his yard. The fellow died that night. So the next day, the surviving brother, needless to say, remembers the "... buried in yard" comment. So he hired a buddy and I, and we helped him recover about 6 jars filled with silver coins.

So the take-away in come-back lines such as these is: "Therefore you shouldn't be skeptical of others". Right ?

But this logic does not necessarily follow. A "real treasure that existed", does not *necessarily* mean "Therefore all others are beyond doubt".

I have no doubt some exist. But I also have no doubt that a bunch more are silly legends that never existed.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Most if not all stories in treasures magazines are untrue. Some true stories do not give all the information to find treasures.

 

[Blak bart]

A common come-back to skepticism of treasure legends (as my post here) will be

1) the knee-jerk reaction to point to a past tense reality of an actually recovered one somewhere. Which is beyond doubt, documented, and was actually true afterall.

2) Give an example of why such a treasure really could exist, by pointing out (like you did here), that it's entirely possible that someone like yourself buries it, tells someone else on their deathbed, etc.... This actually happened in Watsonville, CA a few years ago: A fellow tells his brother that he buried silver in his yard. The fellow died that night. So the next day, the surviving brother, needless to say, remembers the "... buried in yard" comment. So he hired a buddy and I, and we helped him recover about 6 jars filled with silver coins.

So the take-away in come-back lines such as these is: "Therefore you shouldn't be skeptical of others". Right ?

But this logic does not necessarily follow. A "real treasure that existed", does not *necessarily* mean "Therefore all others are beyond doubt".

I have no doubt some exist. But I also have no doubt that a bunch more are silly legends that never existed.

It seems the entire thread can be summed up in the last paragraph of the above quote. I have no doubt that some exist. But I also have no doubt that a bunch more are silly legends that never exsisted. At that point it becomes an individual point of view. To believe or not to believe if Shakespeare were a treasure hunter.

 

[Deft Tones]

And the treasure magazines are equivalent to the supermarket tabloids. If it were not for paid reviews and advertising....what would be left?

 

[Blak bart]

I once set out on a quest for the legendary coin stash of homer Ludwig here in the keys. If you have never herd the legand it is readily available on the net. The journey was a long and winding adventure that I dont regret one bit. In the end I found a real spanish salvage camp with real spanish treasure there. I still go to that spot and every once in awhile I find a little something something !! In the meantime ive been able to open up several other spots too. The point is it was the legand of old homer that peaked my intrest, and genuine research, common sense and logic that lead me to treasure. I cant tell you if homer ever even existed, and im not retired from finding the motherlode, but im very happy with the whole journey. With any luck I will continue to make finds, who knows, maybe I'll go after happy jacks gold next, or maybe the gold coins of noname key. Sometimes when your poking around looking for your lost keys you find a twenty in your dirty clothes. The road to treasure is a windey one with forks and intersections, you never know what other treasures you may stumble on around the next bend. Ive also seen a couple people really lose a lot of money and waist a lot of time chasing ghost galleons here in the keys. Being practical and having common sense go along way in this hobby. Good reading skills go a long way too.
Weather your coin shooting your local park, or tracking down genghis kahns burial chamber, a little luck never hurt either.

 

[ARC]

Heh... Great thread Tom.
100% AGREED with your statements.

I have some things / food for your thread if you like.

 

[Muddyhandz]

It's good to have skepticism and one should question everything in life but be careful about having too much skepticism as one could miss the opportunity of a major discovery.
For example: Up until the late 19th century, the general masses thought the "legend" of Troy in Homer's writings were just that....a legend.
That never stopped Heinrich Schliemann from searching and he found the lost city of Troy, along with many fabulous treasures, including the Mask of Agamemnon.
BUT Schliemann was suspected of creating these golden treasures and "salting" the site as he had the means to do so. No one can prove it either way.
The plus side is that he discovered the Myceneans and opened the door for others who would question whether the ancient Greek "myths" were based on facts.
Many lost civilizations were discovered because a few would go forward with the mindset that these ancient stories were based on truth.