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Can you dig a vault below the MP SHAFT?

chalkoutline

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Hello,
I woke up this morning thinking about how they dug a vault 100ft below the MP. See the attached diagram.

It seems to me that if you could dig a 100ft vertical shaft without cribbing, that the walls would completely collapse once you started digging/cribbing horizontally for the vault.

ArmchairDetective,
You posted info on the vault and boxes before but not sure where to find it.
Can you provide it again?
This will help improve my analysis.

If someone else has it, please post it.

Thanks
-CO
 

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Ive been running the numbers based on values provided by Google AI...

No Cribbing
Using a 3 cubic foot bucket it will take 2.3 years to dig a 100ft deep vertical shaft.
4 cubic foot bucket, 1.46 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 1 year
Thats 8 hours a day, no breaks for weather or break downs.

With cribbing
3 cubic foot bucket, 3.74 years
4 cubic foot bucket, 2.88 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 2.4 years
 
Ive been running the numbers based on values provided by Google AI...

No Cribbing
Using a 3 cubic foot bucket it will take 2.3 years to dig a 100ft deep vertical shaft.
4 cubic foot bucket, 1.46 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 1 year
Thats 8 hours a day, no breaks for weather or break downs.

With cribbing
3 cubic foot bucket, 3.74 years
4 cubic foot bucket, 2.88 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 2.4 years
To dig a 180ft deep sand sump would take...
Without cribbing...
3 cubic foot bucket, 4.1 years
4 cubic foot bucket, 2.6 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 1.8 year
Thats 8 hours a day, no breaks for weather or break downs.

With cribbing
3 cubic foot bucket, 6.7 years
4 cubic foot bucket, 5.1 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 4.3 years
 
Ive been running the numbers based on values provided by Google AI...

No Cribbing
Using a 3 cubic foot bucket it will take 2.3 years to dig a 100ft deep vertical shaft.
4 cubic foot bucket, 1.46 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 1 year
Thats 8 hours a day, no breaks for weather or break downs.

With cribbing
3 cubic foot bucket, 3.74 years
4 cubic foot bucket, 2.88 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 2.4 years
To dig a 180ft deepsand sump would take...
Without cribbing...
3 cubic foot bucket, 4.1 years
4 cubic foot bucket, 2.6 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 1.8 year
Thats 8 hours a day, no breaks for weather or break downs.

With cribbing
3 cubic foot bucket, 6.7 years
4 cubic foot bucket, 5.1 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 4.3 years

Based on these numbers, a conservative estimate would be...5 to 10 years to dig these vertical shafts.
 
To dig a 180ft deepsand sump would take...
Without cribbing...
3 cubic foot bucket, 4.1 years
4 cubic foot bucket, 2.6 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 1.8 year
Thats 8 hours a day, no breaks for weather or break downs.

With cribbing
3 cubic foot bucket, 6.7 years
4 cubic foot bucket, 5.1 years
5 cubic foot bucket, 4.3 years

Based on these numbers, a conservative estimate would be...5 to 10 years to dig these vertical shafts.
The fact that I calculated numbers for a shaft without cribbing doesn't change my position that cribbing is an absolute must when digging vertical shafts to the depth of 100 and 180ft.

The numbers are provided to establish how long men would be working on Oak Island and how covert the operation it actually was.

Was the ship doing all this time?
What was the method used lift buckets that size?
 
50 men... 1 year... but then we would have known for a fact that it really was a treasure pit for at least one of those said men would have opened their mouth about it.

And then... not to mention the fact...
THAT for that whole one year... they would have to have been UNknown to be doing so... not a sole could have stumbled upon the efforts.

Yep... snap back to fantasy.
 
50 men... 1 year...
The 12'x12' shaft determines how many men are needed because you can only one bucket up and one down at a time. Thats the choke point. I estimate their could only be 2 men in the bottom digging while the bucket sits on the bottom. Not much room for a 3rd.

So my estimates wouldn't change with more men so the 1 year is not plausible.

I summize...since you need cribbing, the best case for a 180ft sand sump would be 5 years.

...and they still need to dig the vaul, lower the treasure than fill it back up.
 
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Hello,
I woke up this morning thinking about how they dug a vault 100ft below the MP. See the attached diagram.

It seems to me that if you could dig a 100ft vertical shaft without cribbing, that the walls would completely collapse once you started digging/cribbing horizontally for the vault.

ArmchairDetective,
You posted info on the vault and boxes before but not sure where to find it.
Can you provide it again?
This will help improve my analysis.

If someone else has it, please post it.

Thanks
-CO
Believe you are looking for copy of the J D Mccully letter in the thread "Did a Sawpit..."
Post #93.
 
BTW TNet has a handy search engine which you start by using the magnifying glass icon in the header.
I was on here 8 months before I blundered onto it, then had to ask for help to find it again.
 
I'm not sure how accurate Google AI is with it's info. As we know there is 365 days in a year. If they just dug 6 inches deep a day for half a year, that's roughly 90' deep...That's one scoop of the shovel across the 10'-12' diameter area a day. 2 guys should easily be able to do that in an 8 to 10 hour day I'd think...Stopping every week or 2 to put up cribbing would add a few days here and there of course..
4 years to dig an 180' deep hole. That's roughly 1-1/2'' a day...
 
I'm not sure how accurate Google AI is with it's info. As we know there is 365 days in a year. If they just dug 6 inches deep a day for half a year, that's roughly 90' deep...That's one scoop of the shovel across the 10'-12' diameter area a day. 2 guys should easily be able to do that in an 8 to 10 hour day I'd think...Stopping every week or 2 to put up cribbing would add a few days here and there of course..
4 years to dig an 180' deep hole. That's roughly 1-1/2'' a day...
In the thread "could the boys have dug a 30ft hole?", gravelteeth mentioned..once the hole is dug to the boys height, the boys would have switched to buckets. I agree with gravelteeth.

From there, i calculated how much dirt is in a hole with an opening 12’X12 hole, walls sloped at 84 degrees and 30ft deep.

Next, i calculated how much how much dirt would fit in a 1cf, 2cf and 3cf bucket. I was surprised how many buckets it would take so i only focused on the 3cf bucket.

Carl-NC added a a 1ct weighs 100lbs which means a 3cf weighs 300lbs.

Google AI actually indicated it would take 5 to 15 minutes to just fill a 3cf bucket. I used 10 minutes to fill a bucket AND to hoist it to the surface and dump it while a second bucket is being filled.

Those calculations came to 5 months as mentioned in the 30ft thread: 8hrs/day, 7 days a week.

Gravel teeth also mentioned in another version of the story, the boys were older, late teens so probably farm hands.
I had similar thoughts and why it might take 9 months: spring to fall. However, he seemed to agree it would take months but from first hand experience, it would not come close to 9 months.

The 84 degree sloped wallls poses another challenge...when they reached the log platforms at 10ft, the full 12ft length would not be exposed so they would have had to dig them out possibly causing parts of the walls to slidedown. Digging out the logs at 20 and 30 would be an even bigger problem. I don’t think they could have dug out the logs at 30ft without a cave in.
The 30 ft depth may have come from both the digging and the dirt piled up around the mouth of the opening.

When it comes to cribbing, i lost count of how many times i asked Google Ai about cribbing a vertical shaft at different depths, 1700 methods, wall angle and soil type. No matter how asked it, the response was always the same...cribbing must be used for a 100ft shaft.

Google AI didnt have a good/believable answer for the first 30ft which is why the calculations mentioned above were determined by math aand common sense and not AI.

For this thread, i asked...how long to crib 10 ft in a vertical shaft using 1700 methods. The response was...cribbing in 1700 was a slow, labor intensive and dangerous process which could take 2 or more weeks.
I used 7 days to calculate the the time to crib. I did not include any additional time for lowering the wood to the bottom as the shaft got deeper.

I use excel for my calculations so i begin by narrowing the column width to create a drawing grid. i use the exel drawing tool for my diagrams so i can view them while i create my formulas to the right. I have a different tab for 30ft hole, cribbing, etc.

I appreciate the questions. Thanks
-CO
 
I got a call from a mine engineer about 2 years ago who I've dealt with for the last 25 or so years. He just started a new job with a mine contracting company and was working on some estimates and possible merchandise needs for a contract at the Oak Island show. He didn't elaborate on all that was going to be done. It was probably some underground work, like maybe a brand new vault 🤔 to set the stage for more entertaining episodes for all those who watch the show and really wanna believe there's gotta be something there.
 
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The 84 degree sloped wallls poses another challenge...when they reached the log platforms at 10ft, the full 12ft length would not be exposed so they would have had to dig them out possibly causing parts of the walls to slidedown. Digging out the logs at 20 and 30 would be an even bigger problem. I don’t think they could have dug out the logs at 30ft without a cave in.
The 30 ft depth may have come from both the digging and the dirt piled up around the mouth of the opening.
Believe you would take out a floor the opposite the way you installed it.
Let's say a ten ft floor with 2 ft sticking into the walls at each end, so you dig the niche on on end 4 FT deep, put your pole in all the way. When level, pull back out 2 ft into the opposite wall.

TA-DA ! ! ! Shouldn't cause any cave ins.

Think you're onto something regarding the materials handling/manpower requirements.
 
Believe you would take out a floor the opposite the way you installed it.
Let's say a ten ft floor with 2 ft sticking into the walls at each end, so you dig the niche on on end 4 FT deep, put your pole in all the way. When level, pull back out 2 ft into the opposite wall.

TA-DA ! ! ! Shouldn't cause any cave ins.

Think you're onto something regarding the materials handling/manpower requirements.
I understand what you are saying.

Let me explain the entire process...
1. So lets suppose the depositors had the knowledge to dig 90 degree vertical walls because it was virgin, unworked soil.
2. Then, let's suppose they could did the niches and in stall 14ft log platforms because it was virgin, unworked soil. We would also have assumed there was no fresh water seepage to compromise the walls.
These platforms might be 14' long but they could only be 4' to 6' wide because they need the other 6' to 8' to raise and lower buckets and eventually the treasure.
This actually is better for the story because the logs could be angled and then slid in and straightened into place
3. Finally, they reach the desired depth for the vault. Im going the assume this depth is 10' below the last log platform.
4. Now, they begin digging horizontally to make the vault big enough for the treasure. I hope we can all agree cribbing/ceiling support would be necessary.
5. The concern would be the vertical wall above the horizontal cribbing of the vault to the last platform in the vertical shaft. It seems they would have had to have cribbed at least the bottom 10' .
6. They now deposit the treasure in the vault. If i remember right, Armchair proved the windlasses used pre-1700 would not support a lowering a heavy treasure treasure box so they would have built the box in the vault and filled it in the vault.
Since the reports indicate two stacked boxes, this would make more sense because you wouldn't need a vault. Maybe they really don't mean treasure vault but treasure trove.
7. Nonetheless, the treasure is is finally where they want it and they start filling the vertical shaft.
The easiest method would be to remove the log platforms working from bottom to top and then just filling in the hole. My concern would be the removal would compromise the 100' of vertical wall somewhere along the way and cause a collapse. However, as Armchair mentioned they could just angle them as they did putting them in.
However, the removal of the platforms goes against the onslow company's report of platforms every 10'.

So to support the onslow company's claim, they had to throw or bucket the dirt down with the platforms in place filling 10' at a time and adding logs to cover the entire opening. This too would require niches but unlike the half platforms, the logs could not be angled so the niches would have to be deeper and require more fanagaling to complete the full platform.
If they were simply risk takers to dig a vertical shaft with 90 degree walls, they were really BIG risks takers to try to put logs 100% across tthe pit.

I could not find a source the confirm whether half platforms or full platforms were found...just log platforms.
So i asked four people i know who watch COOI and asked them about the log platforms and all four said they were all the way across covering 100% of the shaft. My vote made five.
8. The shaft is now full and they leave.

This scenario relies entirely on whether a 100' shaft can be dug with 90 walls without cribbing. I looked and looked but could not find one.

If someone one does find please post it so i can update my research.
But for now, my position is...you can't do it without cribbing.
 
I understand what you are saying.

Let me explain the entire process...
1. So lets suppose the depositors had the knowledge to dig 90 degree vertical walls because it was virgin, unworked soil.
2. Then, let's suppose they could did the niches and in stall 14ft log platforms because it was virgin, unworked soil. We would also have assumed there was no fresh water seepage to compromise the walls.
These platforms might be 14' long but they could only be 4' to 6' wide because they need the other 6' to 8' to raise and lower buckets and eventually the treasure.
This actually is better for the story because the logs could be angled and then slid in and straightened into place
3. Finally, they reach the desired depth for the vault. Im going the assume this depth is 10' below the last log platform.
4. Now, they begin digging horizontally to make the vault big enough for the treasure. I hope we can all agree cribbing/ceiling support would be necessary.
5. The concern would be the vertical wall above the horizontal cribbing of the vault to the last platform in the vertical shaft. It seems they would have had to have cribbed at least the bottom 10' .
6. They now deposit the treasure in the vault. If i remember right, Armchair proved the windlasses used pre-1700 would not support a lowering a heavy treasure treasure box so they would have built the box in the vault and filled it in the vault.
Since the reports indicate two stacked boxes, this would make more sense because you wouldn't need a vault. Maybe they really don't mean treasure vault but treasure trove.
7. Nonetheless, the treasure is is finally where they want it and they start filling the vertical shaft.
The easiest method would be to remove the log platforms working from bottom to top and then just filling in the hole. My concern would be the removal would compromise the 100' of vertical wall somewhere along the way and cause a collapse. However, as Armchair mentioned they could just angle them as they did putting them in.
However, the removal of the platforms goes against the onslow company's report of platforms every 10'.

So to support the onslow company's claim, they had to throw or bucket the dirt down with the platforms in place filling 10' at a time and adding logs to cover the entire opening. This too would require niches but unlike the half platforms, the logs could not be angled so the niches would have to be deeper and require more fanagaling to complete the full platform.
If they were simply risk takers to dig a vertical shaft with 90 degree walls, they were really BIG risks takers to try to put logs 100% across tthe pit.

I could not find a source the confirm whether half platforms or full platforms were found...just log platforms.
So i asked four people i know who watch COOI and asked them about the log platforms and all four said they were all the way across covering 100% of the shaft. My vote made five.
8. The shaft is now full and they leave.

This scenario relies entirely on whether a 100' shaft can be dug with 90 walls without cribbing. I looked and looked but could not find one.

If someone one does find please post it so i can update my research.
But for now, my position is...you can't do it without cribbing.
Now that i explained a scenario for depositing the treasure, i can address Armchair's post...

1. The three boys/teenagers saw the indentation in the ground and started digging in soil that is no longer virgin, unworked soil. How compact it actually is depends on the time between burying the treasure and the time the boys found the depression.

You also have to consider that when filling the pit in 10' section there would be air gaps under the log platforms. Another member mentioned this also in the thread...Could 3 boys dig a 30ft hole?

Nonetheless, i don't think it would be compact enough for vertical 90 degree walls. The attached diagram shows different wall angles and how deep one could dig at those angles.
This means when the boys found the first log platform, the area on top of the platform would no longer be 12'x12'.
This also means the boys are no longer dealing with a 1' to 2' niche but significantly more because the half of the platform was installed when filling the shaft and requiring more fanagaling to get them out.
If the boys found only the half platforms, the the removal would support Armchair's scenario but if they are full platforms, it would be much more difficult.

I summize this fanagaling would compromise the walls especially as you go below 10ft where the bottom of the shaft keeps getting smaller ang requiring more fanagaling.
 

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I could not find a source the confirm whether half platforms or full platforms were found...just log platforms.
So i asked four people i know who watch COOI and asked them about the log platforms and all four said they were all the way across covering 100% of the shaft. My vote made five.

I think you're really tapping into the weaknesses in these legends: the lack of specificity and the gradual filling in of details, by later tellers, that were only ever implied at best. The show is now responsible for a good chunk of this repetitional gospel effect, putting forth as statements of fact things that are not necessarily supported in the record. I don't think they do it to intentionally mislead, but they take intellectual shortcuts in the name of easily digestible presentation, sometimes even contradicting prior episodes.

The origin story is not clear on the exact dimensions of the platforms, but by describing how the first searchers had to remove them to proceed lower, the implication is that they completely spanned the shaft.

I'm not sure it's even clear whether they excavated a round shaft or rectangular one. Certainly in later years the syndicates made the MP rectangular. But if the purported depositors had excavated round, were the log platforms then comprised of different lengths of logs ... short ones for the sides of a circle-shaped platform, and longer ones as they approached the middle?

Then there's the versions of what Onslow found. I think the record only indicates that they found "layers" of stuff every ten feet, but not explicitly that those layers reposed upon log platforms. The 90 foot depth may have specified another platform.

Anyway, keep up the good theorizing work.

--GT
 
The origin story is not clear on the exact dimensions of the platforms, but by describing how the first searchers had to remove them to proceed lower, the implication is that they completely spanned the shaft.
I agree.
Once again, assuming a 100ft vertical could be dug with 90 degree vertical walls, i have attached a couple of figures to explain the challenge of installing log platforms.

Figure 1 is a top view of the shaft where niches were dug 1 ft into the walls of the shaft. The logs are lower diagonally and the slid into the niche and straightened. This method will only allow 6 logs to be placed.
As mentioned above this is okay for digging downwards since the other half would be open and used to raise and lower buckets.

Figure 2 is a side view of the shaft showing the half platforms. In order for the platform to span the entire width of the shaft, the last 6 logs would have to be dropped in vertically requiring the removal of 6 ft of soil from one side of the wall above the platform. See the red dashed line. This seems to me pretty risky without cribbing.

The method shown in Figure 2 would be reversed when the boys emoved the log platforms. Pulling, prying and fanagaling the logs out would have a high probability of compromising the integrity of the shaft walls.

There seems to be a lot wrong with the story so until someone can produce evidence indicating is possible to dig a 100ft deep shaft with 90 degree vertical walls without cribbing, the story is not true.

Likewise, any theory built on the MP story could not be taken seriously.
 

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Chalkoutline, gravelteeth
Just noticed in the Mccully letter that it's a DOUBLE floor in the storage area, i.e. 4" oak, 6" spruce (?) pole. This can handle a very heavy load, maybe even a dirt column 100' high (no platforms).

C - still confused
Are you saying the platforms were installed on the way down? How could you have your cribbing advance downward at the same time?

Seems like the the choice is platforms, or cribbing, or neither.
 
WHAT IF-- the wood "flooring" is actually the cribbing from digging down, that they pushed into the middle area as they were coming back up and filling it in...
 

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