Detecting in Turkey? Dont do it.

[dirtfisher23]

Detecting in Turkey? Don't do it.

Minelab Owner on Metal Detecting in Turkey
Portable Antiquity Collecting and Heritage Issues: Minelab Owner on Metal Detecting in Turkey
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I mentioned earlier Peter Tompa's postulated future metal detecting escapades in the "unregulated" eastern Mediterranean. I also discussed the story of the theft of three hundred "site wrecker" depth advantage Minelab detectors which will most likely not be reaching metal detectorists in Turkey just yet. In connection with these two stories, a reader passed along to me a link to a metal detecting forum thread which reveals the realities of metal detecting in this region. One Minelab owner (looks from his shirt and haircut in his avatar photo to be a Star Trek fan) Yalniz Guvercin (may not be his real name) writes07-11-2011, 09:28 PM about:
What I found with Minelab explorer XS (from Turkey):
gold rings that I found on the beach,
silver rings. coins (garrett ace 250 and minelab explorer xs)
I found 250 to ace the gold rings
What I found was not limited to these alone. could not take many photo ... immediately because it usually jeweler selling gold
My English is less than for doing translations Transat google .. I apologize in advance for incorrect translations. (garrett ace 250)
Among the usual congratulatory chitchat, one "Bonesquat" ("Elite Member") observes:
Great stuff you found! You must not have any competition. Nice.
Yalniz adds:
very old history of Turkey. detector to search the ban on turkey. we are doing in secret and at night, call ...
Hmmm. Asked what happens if he gets caught, Yalniz tells fellow detectorists:
imprisonment. at least 48 days. and the detector will be confiscated. We would like to treasure the ban from future
On hearing that, one of the responsible law abiding detectorist - apparently a US citizen from Hawaii - comments:
Arrrrrrrrrrrrg, your a [pirate icon] Don't get caught man! Best of luck to you!
There's "responsible detecting" for you. It's illegal, don't get caught (going out at night), best of luck and welcome to our forum. After a little more halting explanation from the Turk, the Hawaiian adds to his previous comment:
I think I understand. You are able to say if asked you found your items on the beach. I look forward to seeing more of your finds in the future! If you stop posting here I will assume you are in prison.
Once again, no "responsible detectorist" on the metal detecting friendly forum reacted to the notion of "laundering" provenances to circumvent the law. Another "responsible" US detectorist, this one from Claremont, CA reveals the mindset of the milieu:
Too bad about the ban. I would love to be able to detect the grounds around Aya Sofya, or the Topkapı Sarayı. What treasures must be waiting there!
Yes, indeed they are World Heritage Sites precisely to stop greedy oiks going over them with their metal detectors and spades hoiking it all out for their own personal entertainment and profit.
Posted by Paul Barford at 05:24
Labels: metal detecting, Turkey
2 comments:

samarkeolog said...
I would strongly encourage them to go detecting around Topkapı Palace. I just can't decide whether I want the CCTV cameras to be on or off when they're caught.
22 January 2012 20:38

Paul Barford said...
definitely on, so they cannot claim that the coins

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You do realize your link is an "archaeologist's blog", right?

As such, I have no doubt that they can paint md'ing in this light, for just about anywhere. Not saying there isn't laws in EVERY country that could cover "antiquties", "cultural heritage" and so forth. So too is there laws in the USA that can sound dire (and have horrible consequences of jail and stuff if heaven forbid you took a 1959 penny from the forest).

Kinda reminds me of the Kentucky university archaeologist who .... when commenting for the press (some news article or blog or something) about metal detecting in Kentucky. Believe it or not, their stance that was that it was highly illegal on ALL public land (and they had state and federal level statues to cite on that). And in their mind, those state and federal laws subrogated down to county and city levels (by some morphing of their interpreation of "all" public land verbage, etc...). And while they had to relent that private land was outside this, yet .... you could tell from their tone that they seeetthhhed with disgust for any md'rs.

Or how about the archie in Oregon who was up watching a late night "local interest" segment on the news. The TV person was interviewing a local bottle collector, who was showing off his old bottles for the TV viewers. The archie promptly took out a newspaper column slamming this bottle digger, and anyone else who would dare flaunt the law. And although the digger had gotten them on PRIVATE PROPERTY, the archie couldn't be dissuaded that even that too was in violation of Oregon laws (d/t the bottles were over 50 yrs. old). And get this: he even had laws to back himself up that appeared that might say such things. Yup, even the fear of jail, confiscations, etc.. NOW WHILE WE ALL KNOW THE KENTUCKY THING AND THE OREGON THING WERE ST*PID, and we all know that detecting goes on there in city school yards, beaches and such, yet if you ask some archies, they will indeed tell you it's totally illegal. And some skittish Oregon md'rs, reading the archie's dire warnings in that flap, did indeed come away thinking "oh no! we can't detect anywhere!" (afterall, you can't argue with a state-payroll archie, NOW CAN YOU? )

I mean, what did you expect to come from an archie blog? That's a little like asking a PETA rep. if you can leave your pet bunny in the car while you run into the store to get a soda. They would screecchh at you that you are in violation of animal cruelty laws, can be jailed, your car confiscated, blah blah blah. But what did you expect to come from an animal rights wacko?

And as your link shows, the archie blog people writing there acknowledge detecting is going on. But will tell you it's totally illegal. Not unlike some archies here (as the examples I've given show).

All I'm trying to say is: if we md'rs turn to such sources to *really* tell us whether or not we can detect, be prepared to stop detecting at 70 or 80% percent of where you're already md'ing at now.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

For anyone who is going to take-me-to-task for what I've just written, here's my suggestion:

Make a list of all the public places you currently detect at (beaches, schools, campgrounds, parks, etc...). Now take that list to the most "purist" archie in your state (perhaps at the lead university, perhaps in state capitol, etc...). Show him your list, and ask him: "Is it ok if I metal detect here and find old coins, for my own fun and enjoyment and to put on ebay for my own enrichment?" And sit back and listen to his dire warnings. Be sure to mention ARPA, indian bones, treasure, holes and other such buzz-words, lest they not understand the full impact of your question.

Then you too can avail yourself of such information. I mean, c'mon, you wouldn't want to break any laws they appraise you of, WOULD YOU? Now hurry and go do the "right thing".

Why don't we all just stop detecting, or stick to private property with permission, eh? Oh wait, I forgot, private property with permission is illegal in all but the UK and the USA (and even then-so, depending on who you ask).

 

[Midas_touch]

IMO if you have the balls to do it, then do it.

 

[twoauers]

After working in several countries in electronic field service, this is not supprising at all. Even with advancements the Goverments in Foreign countries are opressive, and hold people tight to prevent loss of there control. Low wages, High Tax money, work laws and Population brainwashing by religious tradition are long seeded and very affective tools.

Another factor is the History there, and how they had been treated in the past- WWI, WWII, The UN and the Belfor ahreement, The Mideast Conflict, the Land ....etc. The memories there are long!

The saying goes...."You can not be the Chief if you have no Indians!" especialy the Turks. Due to History, wars, and predjuices against many sorounding nations. Founded or not- they do not have tollerances for many outside activities that are not traditional- with the exclusing of manking money and soccer. They do allow Goverment sponsered digs for relics at Academic levels, but not many.

I am not suprised they stop the individual Hobby Hunters at all. Be very carefull with your urge to detect there. Do not let Jeans and cell phones and an ocassional Starbucks make yourself feel free or at-ease there.

It is growing, but not as fast as people may think. What they own- they keep- especialy if it is hidden and becomes found!

Jon in Nashville

 

[diggummup]

Don't they chop off your hands in Turkey if you get caught?


Oh yeah, that's for stealing isn't it.

 

[dirtfisher23]

Detecting in Turkey has peaked my interest.
I have written to their Consulate General and some
of the lower echelon people working for the
consulates. With any luck I will get some kind of reply.
I will be sure to post it here.

This is the letter I wrote:

To the Esteemed Consulate General
of Turkey:

I have a question I would appreciate an answer to.
I would like to know what the laws are governing Metal Detecting
in your country.

This is a hobby many of us here in the United States have been
engaged in for years and there others very new to the hobby.

Recently on a metal detecting forum: TreasureNet, one
of our members said he was going to visit Turkey and wanted to know
the laws governing metal detecting. I and others, have searched in vain
to find anything specific to the law.

I realize you have only so much time in your day to preform your
governmental duties here in the USA, but if you could be so kind as
to make some inquiries it would be greatly appreciated.

Can hobbyists BRING a detector into the country? Some travelers
have seen stores in Turkey selling detectors so ownership is apparently
allowed, but where can they be used and where can they NOT be used.
Is the Turkish law clear on this and is the law equally applied all over
Turkey or only in certain places. Are the local police equally apprised
of the law or is it's application solely at the discretion of local law enforcement?

Would VERY much like something definitive on this issue. Most of the
people I know engaged in metal detecting are law abiding and wish only to
be clear as to what they can legally do.

Respectfully

 

[liftloop]

I told you not to do it

 

[Doubter in MD]

Well the thread title had me thinking I'd need to be avoiding giblets and sifting through squishy stuffing. Mmmmmm... stuffing... ahhhh...

 

[-Taz-]

Detecting in Turkey has peaked my interest.
I have written to their Consulate General and some
of the lower echelon people working for the
consulates. With any luck I will get some kind of reply.
I will be sure to post it here.
Respectfully

I answered in the other thread, but have since then also checked the forum of the Norwegian Metaldetecting Association where the question of different countries came up. One of the guyes had checked some countries of interest to him, Turkey was one of them. The answer was very clear; NO

Others were; Egypt (NO), Irland (NO), Greece (NO), Malta (NO ). In Spain and Italy it is legal, but with restrictions, in Spain you will for instance need a license.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Detecting in Turkey has peaked my interest.
I have written to their Consulate General and some
of the lower echelon people working for the
consulates. With any luck I will get some kind of reply.
I will be sure to post it here.

This is the letter I wrote:

To the Esteemed Consulate General
of Turkey:

I have a question I would appreciate an answer to.
I would like to know what the laws are governing Metal Detecting
in your country.

This is a hobby many of us here in the United States have been
engaged in for years and there others very new to the hobby.

Recently on a metal detecting forum: TreasureNet, one
of our members said he was going to visit Turkey and wanted to know
the laws governing metal detecting. I and others, have searched in vain
to find anything specific to the law.

I realize you have only so much time in your day to preform your
governmental duties here in the USA, but if you could be so kind as
to make some inquiries it would be greatly appreciated.

Can hobbyists BRING a detector into the country? Some travelers
have seen stores in Turkey selling detectors so ownership is apparently
allowed, but where can they be used and where can they NOT be used.
Is the Turkish law clear on this and is the law equally applied all over
Turkey or only in certain places. Are the local police equally apprised
of the law or is it's application solely at the discretion of local law enforcement?

Would VERY much like something definitive on this issue. Most of the
people I know engaged in metal detecting are law abiding and wish only to
be clear as to what they can legally do.

Respectfully

Wonderful. Now let's all wait for the reply. Afterall "who better to ask, than the entity themselves", right? And the consolate will .... of course.... pass the letter on to the appropriate desks for review. Ie.: lawyers, archaeologists, arborists (you might harm nesting birds) and so forth. All sort of things can be made to apply.

dirt-fisher: I know this is the knee-jerk reaction when the question comes up for any place. It's hard to argue with "go ask a city clerk" or "go ask the head of the state's park's dept", or "go ask a consulate", etc....

I've told this story before, but it falls exactly in line with what you just did. So I will repeat it again here:

In the early 1980s, Fisher Co. had a monthly md'ing periodical. In each edition was a Q&A column (a sort of "letter to the editor" type thing). In one edition, a reader had written in, to inquire if they could metal detect in Mexico or not. I guess they were getting ready to vacation down there on one of the tourist beaches. Fisher, in answer to the question, told them "no". And went on to cite various laws that seemed to spell dire things.

HOWEVER, in the NEXT edition of that periodical, several other readers had written in to take exception with Fisher's answer. They were saying things like "since when?" and "who told you this?" and "we go down there every year and never had a problem", blah blah blah. Fisher, in defense of their answer, explained: When they had received the earlier reader's inquiry, they forwarded it to a Mexican border consulate (or travel lawyer, or bureaucrat, or whatever). And they were merely passing on the information they received from that official. Hmmm. No doubt the question got couched in terms of raiding they pyramids, or shipwreck salvor laws, or exporting gold bars, or .... WHO KNOWS? But oddly, detectors are a common site on tourist beaches there. And there are detector dealers in the major cities there (INCLUDING FISHER DEALERS, doh!).

 

[dirtfisher23]

Finally, I have received word from the Consulate in Los Angeles; It reads as follows
with regards to the law regulating Metal Detecting in Turkey. HOWEVER, keep in mind
that not all local policing in Turkey may be on the same page. Ignorance runs rampant
everywhere. Some police are just as corrup as they are anywhere else and assume you do not
know the law, arrest you, and PRESTO they have a brand new metal detector. BEWARE!

I am also concerned that they never answer the question about using the detector on the
beaches. I even sent an attachment of tourists USING detectors on the beaches. My opinion was and still is
to leave the issue as dead and buried. DON'T DETECT there and if you do you do so at your
own risk.



From

Losangeles Ticaret Ataşeliği

To

Dear Sir:

We have checked the permission requirement for searching treasures and contacted in Turkish Custom Consul in Washington D.C. in this matter.

In Turkey, searching treasury is legal but those who want to search, need to apply to government office or nearest museum administration to receive the permission. In this case, administration issue a certificate and provide an witness officer accompanying with you during the search of specified area.

For metal detector for touristic purposes, entering to Turkey, Custom Consul in Washington D.C responded as ; This particular item is not listed as special item that the passenger can bring in limited quantity which means that it is considered as personal item. Any item for personal use up to 430 Euro value, can be entered with passenger and doesn't require additional custom charge. Since the product is special and custom officer may keep it, in this case, your detector is kept at the custom's warehouse, then you can receive back when you leave the Turkey.

If you need more assistance you can contact to Custom Consul in Washington directly washington@egm.gov.tr

Kindly Regards,



Murat GOREN

Commercial Attache of Los Angeles

 

[dirtfisher23]

Turkey's neighbor, Greece, has similar problems concerning metal detecting.
Read what happened to THIS guy in Greece:

Hull metal-detector enthusiast Paul Douglas on Crete jail ordeal | This is Hull and East Riding

 

[Mekong Mike]

I would go there in a minute.

Good luck.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

dirt-fisher, thanx for the link on the guy in Greece. If there's a rule/law under which the guy got busted, then I would presume it was a rule/law that could have been deduced and known by researching. In other words, it has to be written somewhere, as all laws are "written somewhere", and are "not secret". So if that fellow had wondered, he could have looked it up ahead of time, and seen such a law, that said such a thing.

Also, the fact that "someone got busted in some certain country", does not mean that detecting everywhere in that country is "against the law". Because I wonder if it was the type of beach? I'm assuming it was a public beach, right? So too is there people in the USA who get "busted" for hunting certain types of beaches or parks (violating rules they could have looked up ahead of time). And in England (where it's generally considered friendly to md'rs), you will find that very few guys hunt public parks (even beaches?). Instead they hunt private farmer's fields with permission, to be outside of any laws that apply to public land. Presto. Problem solved. So too might it be in Greece. I'm not saying 100% certain, but just saying that "bootings" and "arrests" stories come from any country, all the time, if someone's not doing their homework first. It doesn't necessarily mean that "the whole country is off-limits" (unless a law really says such a thing, instead of just select areas).

 

[U.K. Brian]

Still wriggling Tom.

 

[LM]

Still wriggling Tom.

One must admit; the passionate maintenance of self-delusion can be quite a thing to behold.

It's well outside the realm of normal human cognition to be able to do that for such a protracted period of time, as he has, and keep a straight face about the whole thing. I'm sure the phenomenon has some clinical term in some Psychiatric Journal someplace, but watching it occur in real time is another thing entirely. It would almost be a bit impressive, were it not so sad.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

LM and uk-brian, that's funny, because I was thinking the same thing, but in reverse: The passionate maintenance of self delusion & wriggling that people have, to talk themselves out of detecting just about anywhere. Just as I may be on one side of the spectrum, so too are there people who have an over-active imagination to the other side-of-the spectrum (to go overboard and think all places are off-limits and illegal).

I remember when I got ready to go to the sierra madres of Mexico in the early 1990s (pre-internet days). A few people in my club were aghast. They assumed md'ing was illegal in Mexico, I'd be arrested, etc... And sure, if you look up enough laws, and ask enough consulates there, I'm sure that you can find horror stories and laws to apply to oneself. But ....... oddly ........ you can detect there and people do, all the time. Huh? How can that be? And in the USA, and in the UK, etc... where scary laws and horror stories also abound.

 

[U.K. Brian]

Good post (I'm being sarcastic) from the person who has just told everyone you can't detect parks in the U.K. and almost no one detects the beaches. Now you ARE supposed to get a license for the beaches but anyone can have one and its free. There's still a few beaches where weapons testing takes place and if they plant the sand dunes with (Marren? grass) to stop wind erosion they may well put a ban on until things are stabilised.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

........ from the person who has just told everyone you can't detect parks in the U.K. and almost no one detects the beaches. Now you ARE supposed to get a license for the beaches but anyone can have one and its free.....

A few friends of mine here have detected the UK (on those guided tour things). And naturally, they're hunting farmer's fields.

When I asked them about hunting parks over there (since that's primarily what USA hunters do here), they said that it's a no-no. And........ afterall Brian, if someone told me that, then by-golly, it must be true, right? Especially if I read it in print somewhere, then it MUST be true (afterall, English jails are no fun). As far as whether or not this extends to beaches, you'll notice I put a question mark on that.