Did William Kidd find Henry Avery's treasure?

[Blak bart]

I return in 2 weeks for underwater hunting with permits!! A dream come true !

 

[Bocaj]

Well i did get to look around a little, but not nearly as much as I wanted. I'm now also very interested in egg island because the fancy would have been able to slide in pretty close to egg island, and west royal island. I am working some other leads that are taking up most of my t-hunting time. View attachment 2210252View attachment 2210253

I see you have a good hand in finding coins. Even they are not from Every's treasure.

 

[gjb]

Here a reproduction of the now defunct site captainkidd.org of Paul Hawkins who came to the same conclusion as I namely that Kidd's treasure is Every's.

Hawkins did stop publishing in 2010 after he supposedly found the island. The Website did run for another 8 years without any new info until it disappeared from the net.

Do you think Paul Hawkins could actually have found the island? I did meet up with Paul, and received from him written specifications of the island’s location, in confidence, but I then got no response to my letters. I understood that he was unwell at the time. As information ceased to be forthcoming, I have wondered if Paul’s search project might not have materialised in the way he’d hoped.

 

[ChasingKidd7]

Another book to read to get an idea of 17th century piracy:
(includes chapters on Avery and Kidd)

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/24882/24882-h/24882-h.htm

Thanks!

 

[Bocaj]

Do you think Paul Hawkins could actually have found the island? I did meet up with Paul, and received from him written specifications of the island’s location, in confidence, but I then got no response to my letters. I understood that he was unwell at the time. As information ceased to be forthcoming, I have wondered if Paul’s search project might not have materialised in the way he’d hoped.

1st Discovery

The complete life and times of Captain William Kidd

web.archive.org

This is the link to his archived website. In it he claims to have already visited the island with a yacht and planed to go back there. The prove was a low-res photo showing him on a white sand beach next to a turtle.

(AI enhanced)
I also researched his other team members and found one who is working in a geologic research company. I did not contact him but if you like I can repeat the search and forward the contact details to you.

I found his reasoning quite compelling and it is sad that we seen nothing further of him.

I do plan an expedition to all the islands that Kidd and Avery have sailed. We are preparing it and hopefully next year we will cast off. I hope we will pass by his island too (there isn't really that many around the Seychelles)

 

[gjb]

This is the link to his archived website. In it he claims to have already visited the island with a yacht and planed to go back there. The prove was a low-res photo showing him on a white sand beach next to a turtle.
I do plan an expedition to all the islands that Kidd and Avery have sailed. We are preparing it and hopefully next year we will cast off. I hope we will pass by his island too (there isn't really that many around the Seychelles)

Thanks very much for the info. I did know that Paul had been to the location and was planning a further trip of recovery. Given the image you provided, I'm wondering whether they decided on a different island, as Paul intimated to me that the 'island' was actually now submerged under a few metres of water. Maybe it's periodically submerged, though I didn't get that impression from speaking to Paul, and that's certainly not the case in the text of the document he gave me.

I'd certainly be grateful to hear of any news that comes your way. I know that Paul put a great deal of work into the project and I'd like to know that he saw it through to completion even if he failed to locate the treasure.

 

[Bocaj]

Thanks very much for the info. I did know that Paul had been to the location and was planning a further trip of recovery. Given the image you provided, I'm wondering whether they decided on a different island, as Paul intimated to me that the 'island' was actually now submerged under a few metres of water.

That would be quite a sink rate to have the whole island a few meters below water in 300 years! Hard to believe especially when you take into account that a cliff with a cave is mentioned and of course a valley and hills. The data from the maps suggest that the island must have at least 10m height over the sea-level. The island from the maps is clearly volcanic and most certainly no atoll. The only thing in common with an atoll is the lagoon but not in the way the lagoon is drawn!

Maybe it's periodically submerged, though I didn't get that impression from speaking to Paul, and that's certainly not the case in the text of the document he gave me.

The picture he published on the site could be from some nearby island.

I'd certainly be grateful to hear of any news that comes your way. I know that Paul put a great deal of work into the project and I'd like to know that he saw it through to completion even if he failed to locate the treasure.

I do know some people on a boat who many years ago searched in one of those island coins in shallow water. They found coins, I am still researching their story.

 

[Bocaj]

As the interest on those maps and its authenticity is still quite high I will reproduce the related paged of the defunct site of Paul Hawkins below:

 

[Bocaj]

First Discovery

Mr. Hill-Cutler was a leading London antique dealer who, in 1929 came into possession of the piece of furniture we know today as "Kidd's Bureau". The piece of furniture was described by Hill-Cutler as an American made heavy 17th Century oak bureau bearing a much worn brass plate inscribed with the words "Captain William Kidd Adventure Galley 1669". Aware of Palmer's interest in such objects, he immediately contacted him and invited his inspection and appraisal. Palmer was told the previous owners came from London but was given no more information to demonstrate provenance. During the inspection, in the presence of Hill-Cutler, Palmer noticed that one of the brass runners that held the writing flap was loose. Upon closer examination he found the brass runner was similarly engraved as the brass plate. He also noticed that the end of the runner was sealed with wax of the type twine makers used to waterproof their twine. After carefully removing the wax, he discovered a tightly coiled piece of parchment inside the runner. The velum had yellowed with age and contained part of a legal document containing the words "of me Sarah" and the initial "W" which was bleeding off the edge of the parchment. More importantly it also contained the outline sketch of an island with the initials "WK" and the date "1669". According to George Edmunds, photographs of the bureau were shown to a leading antiques expert (he doesn't name him) and the Victoria & Albert Museum furniture expert at some stage (he doesn't say when). They concluded that the style of the bureau could not date before 1740??.

​

So here we have our first set of anomalies. The brass plate on the bureau is inscribed with the date 1669 and the name Adventure Galley. The velum also contains the name Sarah and the date 1669. Yet in 1669, Kidd would have been in his mid-twenties and certainly not a Captain, for we know he didn't receive his first command until he reached his mid-forties in 1689. He did not meet Sarah until 1691 (Sarah was a popular name of the times, so could be referring to an entirely different Sarah) and did not take command of the Adventure Galley until 1695/6. If someone really wanted to conceal a map inside a brass runner ~ would he really announce the fact by inscribing the outside of the runner? Unless of course the person who placed the parchment inside the runner WANTED it to be found! Some researchers have tried to explain this glaring anomaly away by proposing that Kidd drew the map of the island in 1699 as he remembered it 30 years earlier in 1669, and that he commanded a ship called Adventure Galley in 1669 and named THE Adventure Galley after his original ship Even if you accept this far fetched unqualified explanation, it still does not explain why the brass plate on the bureau face is inscribed the way it is. There must also be grave concerns over the age and provenance of the bureau ~ as an item of furniture. I also find it inconceivable the originator of the sketch would allow his written text to bleed off the edge of the parchment in the way it has. The initials "WK" and the date "1669" appear to me (even though I am not a hand writing expert) to have been written by a different hand, as a later addition. There are even dots or full stops shown after the initials and the date "1669". This to me smacks of 20th century correctness. I have never ever seen 17th century documents with punctuation as shown. If anything, 17th century documents are noted more for their lack of punctuation.

 

[Bocaj]

It could also be that the date 1669 could also be referring to 1696 - the Year the adventure Galley set sail.Could be a mistake. Also the document refers to Sarah W. (Wife or daughter?). Either could have owned or created the map and the furniture. Maybe collecting all papers related to William. They both died in the 1740th so the furniture could be authentic.

Another idea is that the furniture and the map were both moved from Kidd's home to the AG when Kidd stopped in 1696 NY. With the map already in its place. Maybe Sarah met with Avery and negotiated a pardon in exchange to the treasure or parts of it. Avery gave her the map and they hid it in the bureau for Kidd as reference.

 

[Bocaj]

Another interesting book with plenty of background relieving the political intrigues surrounding Kidd:

Treasure And Intrigue: The Legacy Of Captain Kidd [PDF]

Well worth a discussion even if some ideas appear very far fetches as the one that someone from the map room created the KP maps!






;::

 

[BennyV]

Kidd was connected to the upper echelon on the American and British side. He wasn't a patsy. He knew all the dirt on other pirates. They probably hung out together.

 

[Bocaj]

Kidd was connected to the upper echelon on the American and British side.

True

He wasn't a patsy.

Why can't he be connected and knowledgeable and be a patsy at the same time? I wouldn't say he was stupid but maybe naive would be a fitting word. Someone out of his league who became because of his connection to New York based pirates a valuable asset only to dumped when the political winds shifted.

 

[oldtimetreasurelore]

Here is a true story concerning a possible treasure of some kind buried within a 100 yards of Captain Kidd's ship the Adventure Galley found in the lagoon at Saint Marie, Madagascar.
CAPTAIN WILLIAM KIDDS, SHIP ADVENTURE GALLEY DISCOVERED AT SAINT MARIE, MADAGASCAR BY Barry Clifford EXPEDITION.

I don't remember the date but it was somewhere around 1999 or 2000 I received a call from Warren Getler calling from Madagascar. At the time I had only known Warren a few years and we were co-authoring a book.
He was on that island with a film crew from one of the cable channels. It might have been the Discovery Channel because Warren was working at that time as a senior writer for discovery magazine. However, it seems I have a floating memory that it could have been the Travel Channel or even another one. Not that it really matters, but Warren wanted me to take a look at a gravestone they found in a pirate cemetery near Saint Marie, Madagascar. At the time I had just gotten the Internet, and it was an extremely slow speed. I went ahead and gave them my e-mail address and they sent the photograph to me. while it was downloading I went outside and worked about 30 or 40 minutes and then came in and checked my e-mail and the photo was still downloading. I think it was nearly an hour downloading the photograph. As soon as I got the image, I started looking at it and noticed that it appeared to be a coded waybill. My limited French allowed me to translate most of the stone's writing.

I'm not going take your time decoding it for you now, but I want you to pay attention to it and let the forum know what you can decode yourself. To keep this as brief as possible I learned there was something buried on a hill to the southeast of where this grave was located.

Later, Warren called me back and I delivered my interpretation to him of the map or call it a waybill if you will. He told me there was no hill within sight of where the grave was located. I said maybe it's not a hill perhaps just a rise or a dune, and he said well there is a brush covered rise a higher than where they were standing and it was southeast. I said well go up and look at that. Later, they called me back and said we found a circle of stones about the size of a basketballs about 10 feet in diameter, in the brush on top of the rise and inside that circle there was a smaller circle about 6 feet in diameter made of baseball or softball sized stones. (Note here this is exactly what is found at several KGC depositories in America, one is located in the Masonic cemetery near Florence, AZ.

I don't recall how they determined that something was detected there or near it. They were excited and going to dig it up.

I understand that as they began to dig the local police, armed men stopped them and said that they had a permit for underwater recovery, but they did not have a permit for land recovery, so they wouldn't allow them to dig. They were watching the site because of a national law, or something requiring the exploration team to obey.

Discouraged they got on a plane and flew back to either New York City or DC, whichever it was. Later the writer for the channel returned to Saint Marie with a permit to dig. They found the place had already been dug up They noticed all of the local citizens we're wearing new clothes and new, expensive sneakers.

I heard some had new bicycles and other things. I don't remember whether it was Warren or the leader of the expedition but someone determined that the new found wealth meant they had found something valuable. Later, I received the copy of a cable channel magazine I don't remember which one it was, but it had the same story that I just told you that would have been published I believe around 2000.

The exploration team was on Saint Marie Madagascar in search of Captain Kidd’s ship the Adventure Gallery, which sprung leaks while in the Indian Ocean and finally made that port. The ship was saved by slaves manning the pumps 24 hours a day to prevent the ship from sinking. They reached the breaching beach at Saint Marie and at high tide pulled the ship up as far as they could and discovered that it was in too badly ate up with Toreador worms to repair so they burned the ship to the water line and it sunk in about 20 feet of water.

I believe Clifford, the famous underwater explorer, did the research to find the ship. And identified it as the adventure galley.

That was the last I ever heard or read about the find. Whether the story is accurate I cannot say but that's what I remember. Strange thing was in the magazine article it said, paraphrasing: We sent the picture of the tombstone to Bob to see if it was a treasure map, then Warren took credit for decoding the puzzle. I thought that humorous and you can see why.

HBBB




FRENCH TRANSLATION : JOSEPH PIERRE LECHARTIER

BORN IN DUCEY DEPINDELA MANCHE ON IO APRIL L1788

ARRIVED ON THE NORMANDE RIVER ON 1 NOVEMBER 1821

DIED AT ST MARIE ON 14 MARCH 1834

BY HIS FRIEND HULIN

 

[Bocaj]

Here is a true story concerning a possible treasure of some kind buried within a 100 yards of Captain Kidd's ship the Adventure Galley found in the lagoon at Saint Marie, Madagascar.
CAPTAIN WILLIAM KIDDS, SHIP ADVENTURE GALLEY DISCOVERED AT SAINT MARIE, MADAGASCAR BY Barry Clifford EXPEDITION.

I don't remember the date but it was somewhere around 1999 or 2000 I received a call from Warren Getler calling from Madagascar. At the time I had only known Warren a few years and we were co-authoring a book.
He was on that island with a film crew from one of the cable channels. It might have been the Discovery Channel because Warren was working at that time as a senior writer for discovery magazine. However, it seems I have a floating memory that it could have been the Travel Channel or even another one. Not that it really matters, but Warren wanted me to take a look at a gravestone they found in a pirate cemetery near Saint Marie, Madagascar. At the time I had just gotten the Internet, and it was an extremely slow speed. I went ahead and gave them my e-mail address and they sent the photograph to me. while it was downloading I went outside and worked about 30 or 40 minutes and then came in and checked my e-mail and the photo was still downloading. I think it was nearly an hour downloading the photograph. As soon as I got the image, I started looking at it and noticed that it appeared to be a coded waybill. My limited French allowed me to translate most of the stone's writing.

I'm not going take your time decoding it for you now, but I want you to pay attention to it and let the forum know what you can decode yourself. To keep this as brief as possible I learned there was something buried on a hill to the southeast of where this grave was located.

Later, Warren called me back and I delivered my interpretation to him of the map or call it a waybill if you will. He told me there was no hill within sight of where the grave was located. I said maybe it's not a hill perhaps just a rise or a dune, and he said well there is a brush covered rise a higher than where they were standing and it was southeast. I said well go up and look at that. Later, they called me back and said we found a circle of stones about the size of a basketballs about 10 feet in diameter, in the brush on top of the rise and inside that circle there was a smaller circle about 6 feet in diameter made of baseball or softball sized stones. (Note here this is exactly what is found at several KGC depositories in America, one is located in the Masonic cemetery near Florence, AZ.

I don't recall how they determined that something was detected there or near it. They were excited and going to dig it up.

I understand that as they began to dig the local police, armed men stopped them and said that they had a permit for underwater recovery, but they did not have a permit for land recovery, so they wouldn't allow them to dig. They were watching the site because of a national law, or something requiring the exploration team to obey.

Discouraged they got on a plane and flew back to either New York City or DC, whichever it was. Later the writer for the channel returned to Saint Marie with a permit to dig. They found the place had already been dug up They noticed all of the local citizens we're wearing new clothes and new, expensive sneakers.

I heard some had new bicycles and other things. I don't remember whether it was Warren or the leader of the expedition but someone determined that the new found wealth meant they had found something valuable. Later, I received the copy of a cable channel magazine I don't remember which one it was, but it had the same story that I just told you that would have been published I believe around 2000.

The exploration team was on Saint Marie Madagascar in search of Captain Kidd’s ship the Adventure Gallery, which sprung leaks while in the Indian Ocean and finally made that port. The ship was saved by slaves manning the pumps 24 hours a day to prevent the ship from sinking. They reached the breaching beach at Saint Marie and at high tide pulled the ship up as far as they could and discovered that it was in too badly ate up with Toreador worms to repair so they burned the ship to the water line and it sunk in about 20 feet of water.

I believe Clifford, the famous underwater explorer, did the research to find the ship. And identified it as the adventure galley.

That was the last I ever heard or read about the find. Whether the story is accurate I cannot say but that's what I remember. Strange thing was in the magazine article it said, paraphrasing: We sent the picture of the tombstone to Bob to see if it was a treasure map, then Warren took credit for decoding the puzzle. I thought that humorous and you can see why.

HBBB




FRENCH TRANSLATION : JOSEPH PIERRE LECHARTIER

BORN IN DUCEY DEPINDELA MANCHE ON IO APRIL L1788

ARRIVED ON THE NORMANDE RIVER ON 1 NOVEMBER 1821

DIED AT ST MARIE ON 14 MARCH 1834

BY HIS FRIEND HULIN

View attachment 2222751

Interesting story but of course unrelated to Avery - the grave dates more that 100 years later.

As for the discovery of the Adventure Galley there has been no positive prove. The silver bar is actually 95% lead and for the rest we still have to see something that is actually associated with the Galley other then pieces of wood.

 

[oldtimetreasurelore]

You are correct in stating the Galley was burned, but read the whole history of Kidd and see the ship only burned to the water line and what was found in the Saint Marie harbor was only the bottom of a burned ship exactly the size of the Adventure Galley. I've read about all there is on Kidd's history. The maps that show the island in the China Sea are not correct unless Kidd made them to throw people off. The island depicted on the maps is in the western Indian Ocean. Kidd could not have believed he was in the China Sea which does not start until west of the Gulf of Thailand.
I am known as an expert in coded maps and although the Kidd maps are historically acclaimed. The appear the work of an amateur.
Another thing is the lead bar was not found near where the Galley wreckage lies. I haven't read about the finding of the bar because Kldd does not fall into my expertise of land treasures mostly in USA.
I told you a story that i was involved with only as a code reader, research the article on old tv channel magazines. or just post on the forum to Warren Getler, he is sure to read it if name is mentioned.
I don't have a dog in this fight and hope you go find the Kidd's gold. If you are really pirate oriented go to Aruba and walk the beach looking at the cliffs, some pirate markings there someone sent for me to interpret. If you are knowledgeable on the Knights Templar,, the treasure code of pirates (Templar Navy) 1400-1800 are identical.
Good Luck
HBBB

 

[Bocaj]

You are correct in stating the Galley was burned, but read the whole history of Kidd and see the ship only burned to the water line and what was found in the Saint Marie harbor was only the bottom of a burned ship exactly the size of the Adventure Galley. I've read about all there is on Kidd's history. The maps that show the island in the China Sea are not correct unless Kidd made them to throw people off. The island depicted on the maps is in the western Indian Ocean. Kidd could not have believed he was in the China Sea which does not start until west of the Gulf of Thailand.
I am known as an expert in coded maps and although the Kidd maps are historically acclaimed. The appear the work of an amateur.
Another thing is the lead bar was not found near where the Galley wreckage lies. I haven't read about the finding of the bar because Kldd does not fall into my expertise of land treasures mostly in USA.
I told you a story that i was involved with only as a code reader, research the article on old tv channel magazines. or just post on the forum to Warren Getler, he is sure to read it if name is mentioned.
I don't have a dog in this fight and hope you go find the Kidd's gold.
If you are really pirate oriented go to Aruba and walk the beach looking at the cliffs, some pirate markings there someone sent for me to interpret. If you are knowledgeable on the Knights Templar,, the treasure code of pirates (Templar Navy) 1400-1800 are identical.
Good Luck
HBBB

Well you tell me what the treasure code of the Templar Navy is? I know the Black Flag with the skull on it comes from their navy battle flag. That's all I know.

Also I do not specially look for Kidd's treasure as he wasn't a pirate as I understand it and never possessed that much treasure anyway. I look for the treasure of real pirates like Avery or better said I am interested in the history of them and looking for treasure is a way to understand them.

This is why I am going to sail the Pirate Round as they have done.

 

[oldtimetreasurelore]

hi Boca,
Sorry, but i don't have the time to teach the code used by Templars. I did post a photo of a coded tombstone that has some of the code easy to read. Perhaps you should study the markings on that stone and find where it gives directions to go. You can read everything there is available about different pirates, and still not find a word about the codes. The KT code is called Pershur (spelled different ways), which is writing that has clues within the story, sort of a story in a story, look for oddly spelled words and try to reverse all the meanings. Like up is down, left is right and north is south and so on.. Their is no written instructions for deciphering or decoding it. Often there will be symbols relating to the constellations of stars, religious symbols, occultic signs and symbols. Try using anagrams for words seemingly out of place or fractured words. These can be found in Latin, French, English mostly. That said here; will apply to most treasure maps and clues for any treasure, KGC or pirate. Spend more research time trying to find clues in Bible, Kabbalah, astronomy and Masonic symbolism, than reading most books on pirating unless they are journals or diary's of actual persons. Of course those are difficult to find unless in some national repository of history which might take coins to travel around the world. I think it was in Madrid or Seville where Mel Fisher found many personal papers of survivors of shipwrecks recording where and when, the event happened,, also he found records of Spanish Treasure galleons taken by pirates, if anyone survived the attack, most if captured were sold a slaves to opposing nations.
Hope this helps in some way
HBBB . Pardon any errors due to bad eyes.

 

[Bocaj]

hi Boca,
Sorry, but i don't have the time to teach the code used by Templars. I did post a photo of a coded tombstone that has some of the code easy to read. Perhaps you should study the markings on that stone and find where it gives directions to go. You can read everything there is available about different pirates, and still not find a word about the codes. The KT code is called Pershur (spelled different ways), which is writing that has clues within the story, sort of a story in a story, look for oddly spelled words and try to reverse all the meanings. Like up is down, left is right and north is south and so on.. Their is no written instructions for deciphering or decoding it. Often there will be symbols relating to the constellations of stars, religious symbols, occultic signs and symbols. Try using anagrams for words seemingly out of place or fractured words. These can be found in Latin, French, English mostly. That said here; will apply to most treasure maps and clues for any treasure, KGC or pirate. Spend more research time trying to find clues in Bible, Kabbalah, astronomy and Masonic symbolism, than reading most books on pirating unless they are journals or diary's of actual persons. Of course those are difficult to find unless in some national repository of history which might take coins to travel around the world. I think it was in Madrid or Seville where Mel Fisher found many personal papers of survivors of shipwrecks recording where and when, the event happened,, also he found records of Spanish Treasure galleons taken by pirates, if anyone survived the attack, most if captured were sold a slaves to opposing nations.
Hope this helps in some way
HBBB . Pardon any errors due to bad eyes.

Thx, I will once I find some markings in need of decoding...

Btw what is you option on the "Skeleton of Leb" written on the Key Map?

 

[THE TRUE SEEKER]

Here is a true story concerning a possible treasure of some kind buried within a 100 yards of Captain Kidd's ship the Adventure Galley found in the lagoon at Saint Marie, Madagascar.

Is this it?

National Geographic Adventure Magazine: Excerpts--March 2002

Read excerpts of articles on African treasure, rock climbing in Joshua Tree National Park, Afghan warlords, and snowboarding Montana's Beartooths.

web.archive.org