Dr. Thorne's Gold

[skyhawk1251]

As I originally posted, a location on Geronimo Head seems to fit the description as recorded in "Dr. Thorne's Gold" by Barry Storm and in Bark's Notes. By standing at a certain vantage point, a person could look far below into LaBarge Canyon. At the top of the mountain and to the right of a ravine, looking ahead, a disturbed patch of ground could be seen with a "dump" of rocks nearby. To the left of the ravine, a spur could be seen with rock "ruins." Looking down into the ravine from the "ruins", rocks arranged in a linear pattern could be seen, as if forming bulwarks to protect an adit dug into the slope. Study the second GE image and more linear arrangements of rocks can be seen on the top of the spur.

 

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[Idahodutch]

Good morning Skyhawk,
I want to make sure I understand what you’re saying in regards to being able to see LaBarge canyon far below.
I’m guessing that you mention it, (LaBarge canyon), as the possible destination of where they stopped and left the horses?

Up on to Geronimo’s head from LaBarge canyon, and then back down again with a heavy load, on foot, is a significant hike for sure.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m just asking as a friend, because if they left the Fort early in the morning on horse back, I imagine it may have been around noon, or shortly after, when they stopped the horses in the canyon floor, and took the blindfold off.
I am presuming that additional 3 hours more, of being blindfolded on the way out was done in daylight?

Also, please kind sir, the tip of a peak that he thought, at first, was weavers needle ….. your thoughts.

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Good morning Skyhawk,
I want to make sure I understand what you’re saying in regards to being able to see LaBarge canyon far below.
I’m guessing that you mention it, (LaBarge canyon), as the possible destination of where they stopped and left the horses?

Up on to Geronimo’s head from LaBarge canyon, and then back down again with a heavy load, on foot, is a significant hike for sure.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m just asking as a friend, because if they left the Fort early in the morning on horse back, I imagine it may have been around noon, or shortly after, when they stopped the horses in the canyon floor, and took the blindfold off.
I am presuming that additional 3 hours more, of being blindfolded on the way out was done in daylight?

Also, please kind sir, the tip of a peak that he thought, at first, was weavers needle ….. your thoughts.

Idahodutch

It said the distance from the fort to weavers needle, as the crow flies, is about 22 miles. Did they go in that far? I don’t think so, but I don’t know.
I’m guessing that it was around 6 or 7 hours, from time they left the fort until they stopped the horses and removed his blindfold

 

[skyhawk1251]

I want to make sure I understand what you're saying in regards to being able to see LaBarge canyon far below. I'm guessing that you mention it (LaBarge Canyon) as the possible destination where they stopped and left the horses?

Up onto Geronimo's head from LaBarge Canyon, and then back down again with a heavy load, on foot, is a significant hike for sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm just asking as a friend, because if they left the Fort early in the morning on horseback, I imagine it may have been around noon, or shortly after, when they stopped the horses in the canyon floor, and took the blindfold off. I am presuming that an additional three hours more of being blindfolded on the way out was done in daylight?

Also, please kind sir, the tip of a peak that he thought, at first, was Weavers Needle . . . your thoughts.

It said the distance from the Fort to Weavers Needle, as the crow flies, is about 22 miles. Did they go in that far? I don't think so, but I don't know. I'm guessing that it was around 6 or 7 hours, from time they left the Fort until they stopped the horses and removed his blindfold. -- Idahodutch

Russell -- The questions you ask are exactly the ones I had in my mind before I posted the location on Geronimo Head for "Dr. Thorne's Gold." I still have no answers to those questions, which is why I prefer to call that location on Geronimo Head as a "possible" location. There could be others just as possible, but I haven't found any yet, although I've searched for others closer to the Salt River that also might fit the clues given in the tale. So, consider Geronimo Head to be my best "guesstimate" thus far. I'm sure that by looking carefully at the GE images you can see things there that don't look natural.

As you point out, a primary stumbling block with Geronimo Head is the challenging and time consuming climb to the top, and then getting back down to the canyon bottom with heavy loads of gold ore, although I would guess that Dr. Thorne had some help from his Apache friends. I know that some have made it to the top of Geronimo Head, Wayne Tuttle included, and those people might know the fastest and easiest route to the top. A route from the Tortilla Creek side of the mountain might be a possibility, but using GE it looks less likely than from the LaBarge Canyon side.

I have the total time of Dr. Thorne's escorted trip not much exceeding twelve hours. That would be the maximum time during the summer months when days are longest. The total time would be shorter during the cooler months of the year when days are shorter. Nothing in the tale indicates a period of time extending beyond daylight hours of one day, nor is there anything indicating that they traveled as far as Weavers Needle.

Dr. Thorne's sighting of a pointed peak also presents a problem. From the bottom of LaBarge Canyon, could he have "barely" seen the tip of Weavers Needle? Why, if he was on the top of Geronimo Head, wasn't the pointed peak mentioned as being more prominent?

Another, very different, version of the tale tells of Dr. Thorne finding his gold in a cached pile at the bottom of a canyon. That version would lead to other possible locations in many different directions. It all seems to amount to pick-and-choose, as with most of these old tales. Everyone can make their own choice.

 

[Idahodutch]

Russell -- The questions you ask are exactly the ones I had in my mind before I posted the location on Geronimo Head for "Dr. Thorne's Gold." I still have no answers to those questions, which is why I prefer to call that location on Geronimo Head as a "possible" location. There could be others just as possible, but I haven't found any yet, although I've searched for others closer to the Salt River that also might fit the clues given in the tale. So, consider Geronimo Head to be my best "guesstimate" thus far. I'm sure that by looking carefully at the GE images you can see things there that don't look natural.

As you point out, a primary stumbling block with Geronimo Head is the challenging and time consuming climb to the top, and then getting back down to the canyon bottom with heavy loads of gold ore, although I would guess that Dr. Thorne had some help from his Apache friends. I know that some have made it to the top of Geronimo Head, Wayne Tuttle included, and those people might know the fastest and easiest route to the top. A route from the Tortilla Creek side of the mountain might be a possibility, but using GE it looks less likely than from the LaBarge Canyon side.

I have the total time of Dr. Thorne's escorted trip not much exceeding twelve hours. That would be the maximum time during the summer months when days are longest. The total time would be shorter during the cooler months of the year when days are shorter. Nothing in the tale indicates a period of time extending beyond daylight hours of one day, nor is there anything indicating that they traveled as far as Weavers Needle.

Dr. Thorne's sighting of a pointed peak also presents a problem. From the bottom of LaBarge Canyon, could he have "barely" seen the tip of Weavers Needle? Why, if he was on the top of Geronimo Head, wasn't the pointed peak mentioned as being more prominent?

Another, very different, version of the tale tells of Dr. Thorne finding his gold in a cached pile at the bottom of a canyon. That version would lead to other possible locations in many different directions. It all seems to amount to pick-and-choose, as with most of these old tales. Everyone can make their own choice.

Skyhawk, that was a great reply.
I’ve read some additional stories, and each is different from the rest.🤪

Thanks for clearing that up. 👍😁

 

[markmar]

The most confusions in the lost mines stories, are made because the storytellers change the small ravines with canyons and with this change the whole image of the region.
IMHO, the Barry Storm story is a complete bogus, using clues from LDM and Jenkins lost gold, and using his favorite area which is East Boulder Canyon just west of Black Top Mesa. As I wrote, the Bark's description it's the most accurate, even if this don't serves someone's theory.

 

[skyhawk1251]

. . . Bark's description is the most accurate, even if it doesn't serve someone's theory. -- markmar (edited)

I also prefer the version of the tale given in Bark's Notes, because it provides the most details about topographic features. One puzzling aspect of Barry Storm's book, "Thunder Gods Gold", is that Storm doesn't compare versions of the tales covered in his book, nor does he suggest specific locales where the treasure troves are most likely to be found. Also, he doesn't admit to following-up a lot of his research with personal on-the-ground explorations when very tantalizing clues are thrown his way, such as the information given to him by Charlie Morgan about the "fabulous valley" (pages 86,87). The reader is left with the feeling that Storm isn't telling the whole story and that we're only being given a "snipped" version of everything.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Skyhawk,
Back to Doc Thorne…. I had some thoughts about this account and just wanted to comment.

View attachment 2055345

It states that the gold yielded about $2,800 which equates to approximately 1400 ounces of gold at $20.

$2 gold, thems were the days !

1400 Troy ounces weigh approximately 95 pounds of gold. That’s if it was pure gold.

I can imagine that saddle bags might hold 70-80 pounds, and his hat, maybe another 15-20 pounds, and stuffed pockets ….
A feat that certainly could have been performed, even while carefully getting back down out of the steep arroyo.

The part about Thorne recounting that he could see what he thought , was perhaps the tip of a sombrero shaped peak, from the canyon floor below the steep arroyo.
Where they also left the horses.

Doc Thorne thought it was weavers needle, but was not able to relocate that spot.

What if the tip of a peak that he thought was weavers needle, wasn’t.

At any rate, looking from the canyon floor, up into a high very steep arroyo, and able to see the tip of a peak …..

In my mind, either the arroyo is not very high up, or the peak is not very far away.
Otherwise it would not be visible from the canyon floor, over the top of the arroyo.

To leave the animals down at the canyon bottom, there is high probability of water, and stuff for the animals to eat in the close proximity.

The tip of the sombrero shape peak behind the arroyo to the south, indicates a northward facing arroyo.

It certainly does sound very similar to the descriptions of the LDM area.

 

[markmar]

I also prefer the version of the tale given in Bark's Notes, because it provides the most details about topographic features. One puzzling aspect of Barry Storm's book, "Thunder Gods Gold", is that Storm doesn't compare versions of the tales covered in his book, nor does he suggest specific locales where the treasure troves are most likely to be found. Also, he doesn't admit to following-up a lot of his research with personal on-the-ground explorations when very tantalizing clues are thrown his way, such as the information given to him by Charlie Morgan about the "fabulous valley" (pages 86,87). The reader is left with the feeling that Storm isn't telling the whole story and that we're only being given a "snipped" version of everything.

Actually, the " sunken valley " and the other treasures are not on Geronimo Head Mountain. Because has Geronimo's name this doesn't prove anything. Without knowing, Storm was writing about two different treasure locations, but he believed was one. The mine in the sunken valley is lower and about 60 yards afar from the mine which is connected with the spring. Both mines hold treasures consisting Spanish gold bars and Jesuit gold bars and church ornaments.
The mine in the sunken valley ( see Holyground story at https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/cursum-perficio-stone.618268/, post #20 ) was avoided by the Indians, being superstitious because there are still Spaniard's mumified corpses, but the mine with the spring running inside ( Walter Perrine story ), was protected by the Indians and they were not afraid to enter. So, Geronimo was talking about the mine with the spring running inside.
The LDM and eventually the Dr. Thorne gold are on the same mountainside with those treasures, but for sure ( always IMHO ) not on Geronimo Head Mountain.

 

[Idahodutch]

The most confusions in the lost mines stories, are made because the storytellers change the small ravines with canyons and with this change the whole image of the region.
IMHO, the Barry Storm story is a complete bogus, using clues from LDM and Jenkins lost gold, and using his favorite area which is East Boulder Canyon just west of Black Top Mesa. As I wrote, the Bark's description it's the most accurate, even if this don't serves someone's theory.

I too am finding Bark’s version to be accurate. 👍
I looked up the definition of a “spur”, and wouldn’t you know it, there is a spur to the left, when facing out into the canyon.

However, I do still find Storm’s version to be just as accurate. 👍
(Just not the dates). I would not call that version bogus, over the dates.
I certainly wouldn’t call a set of clues bogus, just because they didn’t match up a spot I was interested in. 🥸

As far as what confuses, I would definitely say in many cases, it is searchers maybe matching one version, or clue(s) to a spot, but not the other(s).

Pretty hard to say 100%, without gold in hand. 🤓

 

[Idahodutch]

Skyhawk,
I also wondered why the peak was not addresses again, in Storm’s version.

you said:

Actually when he said “at first” ….
People say that when there is an “at second”, or “at third” that provided more detail and outcome.

It could have been almost right away, or after exhausting himself with many trips looking for spots where tip of weavers needle can be seen from canyon floors.

He did say the peak tip is sombrero shaped.
Edit: at least the tip of the peak is shaped like tip of a sombrero.

 

[skyhawk1251]

Here is another version of the Dr. Thorne story as it was published in Leland Lovelace's book, "Lost Mines and Hidden Treasure" (1956). Because it is so different from other versions and includes many details not seen elsewhere, I have concluded that it is heavily embellished with fiction, added by the author to outsell his competition. As books like this are published year after year they seem to stray farther and farther from the truth -- if there is any truth to any of the old treasure tales.

 

[markmar]

Almost the same story, with a new clue of the vein going up across the gulch. BTW, across the gulch and up from that gold outcrop, there is a gold mine, and not only.

 

[skyhawk1251]

This photo, taken not far from SR 87 about 20 minutes (20 miles) from Mesa makes me wonder if a location north of the Salt River can agree with the story of "Dr. Thorne's Gold" as easily as a location south of the Salt River. Notice that Weaver's Needle is very prominent on the horizon. If a route was followed eastward from Fort McDowell, water crossings would be encountered when the intervening creek beds were flowing from recent rains.

 

[deducer]

View attachment 2087439

This photo, taken not far from SR 87 about 20 minutes (20 miles) from Mesa makes me wonder if a location north of the Salt River can agree with the story of "Dr. Thorne's Gold" as easily as a location south of the Salt River. Notice that Weaver's Needle is very prominent on the horizon. If a route was followed eastward from Fort McDowell, water crossings would be encountered when the intervening creek beds were flowing from recent rains.

 

[markmar]

View attachment 2089996View attachment 2089997

deducer, to me looks more like a boulder than like a peak. But indeed looks like an " organ ".
Few years ago, in a thread about LDM, Injunbro ( Tnet username ) who is half Apache blood, admitted how while visited Superstitons 40 years ago as a guard for a ceremony for the Apache sacred cave, the elders traditional Apache who did the ceremony used the " horse organ " name for Weavers Needle.

 

[deducer]

deducer, to me looks more like a boulder than like a peak. But indeed looks like an " organ ".
Few years ago, in a thread about LDM, Injunbro ( Tnet username ) who is half Apache blood, admitted how while visited Superstitons 40 years ago as a guard for a ceremony for the Apache sacred cave, the elders traditional Apache who did the ceremony used the " horse organ " name for Weavers Needle.

By itself, that "distinctive organ" monument means nothing. There are probably hundreds of similar looking boulders all over the southwest.

But this particular one is in the right place and near a canyon which opens towards the south, and from where you can see it, also facing south.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Friends -

I'm looking for Milton Rose's account of the Doctor Thorne - I believe it's in his Rainbow's End.

Please send me a PM if you have it - Thank you!

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

In his excellent 1975 Tales of the Superstitions; The Origins of the Lost Dutchman Legend (for my money the best book written to date on the subject, even if the author couldn't locate P.C. Bicknell's 1895 San Francisco Chronicle article), Robert Blair wrote:

Writers of Arizona lost-mine romances in the period 1933-1953 had sought ways to enliven their accounts of the mine of Waltz and the Peraltas. The bare bones of the old Dutchman legend no longer yielded enough flavor for their imaginative concoctions, so they case about for fresh ingredients. A perusal of the table of contents of Mitchell's [1933] Lost Mines of the Great Southwest shows how much of their new material was acquired, namely by selecting lost mines from nearby regions and dragging these stories in by the ears to become a sort of appendix to the classical Dutchman legend.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[gollum]

By going to the GPS coordinates included in the GE images, anyone can find and view the exact locations. This post, "Dr. Thorne's Gold", is purely a mental exercise, a thinking-through of a "what-if" hypothesis. This place on Geronimo Head would be an interesting place to explore, but I have no plans at present to do so. My location is Kingman, Mohave County, AZ and I rarely stray outside Mohave County. If you're willing to share the deciphered coordinate, please do so by Private Message. Even if you don't want to share I'd like to know if this thread helped you in any way to break the encryption.

Skyhawk,

Don't need to translate anything to know where that is. HAHAHA

Mike