Dr. Thorne's Gold

[Old Bookaroo]

Hello Bookaroo so fantastic stuff as always.
As we can see the details in some of the later versions vary considerably.

It is good question you ask? Was it possible for Apache to make silver bullets? Well considering the Apache was displaced plains Indians that moved into south west fleeing white encroachment in their territories. In essence their culture was hunter and gathering society. There is encounter with white population gave them access to many things. For example the Spanish brought horses.

As the Apache fled south West they encountered other Indian tribes that grew corn , baked pots and from earlier encounters was exposed to metal working that was done in pre Columbian Mexico.

The Spanish has been making inroads into Arizona. The earliest written record of a significant milling operation in Arizona was for gold and silver at the Lon-goreiia mine (aka. Longuerino or Longerena) in Fraquita Wash near Arivaca (or Aribac) in 1763.

Some antigua evidence remains from these early operations: several large arrastra sites, charcoal ovens and traces of crude
mercury retorts.

What little mining and ore processing as was done in
the 1700's and 1800's was performed by the Indian converts of the Catholic Church.

After the Jesuit expulsion in 1767, another Spanish
government report dated 1774 mentions a rich silver mine
at Aribac. The property was again active in 1857 when
a 20-stamp mill ran intermittently for a few years prior
to the Civil War.

Arizona was full of native silver which is soft. The early pioneers did not need a blast furnace to melt native silver. Small furnace was make by iron age people in Europe which was done with very simple things ready at hand.

The melting point of raw native silver 960.8 C Iron Ore melts at 15860 C. A Furnace made of clay and sticks using firewood can melt and produce iron ore. So native silver heated in A Clay furnace could easily melt in the pure, free elemental form ("native silver")

These furnaces cane be made anywhere. as long as there is clay wood and water and fire.

primitive draught furnace

And here is another clay furnace this technology could off been easily available to local native Indian population to make silver bullets. It does not however prove that Apache made silver bullets or even fired them? As for as we know the stories of Indians firing silver bullets could of just been exaggeration? But it does show it was not impossible.

Here is another furnace made from clay. Utterly fascinating to watch. this was getting temperature to melt iron. So for silver there was more than enough heat. bullets could be made with bullet pressed in wet clay leaving an impression then pour the molten silver into them.

So not by no meaning impossible to do? If the Apache had been firing silver bullets? I was suspect it obtained from through barter from other Indian tribes that had exposure to early Spanish miners who knew how to smelt silver.

Interesting stuff all the same.

Here is an ash lined furnace. Just incredible to watch.

Primitive clay ash furnace

Crow

Crow - As always, you are too kind. Your good words mean a great deal to me. Thank you!

I certainly appreciate your good information and it provides considerable food for thought.

Regarding the Dr. Thorne, there will be another post from the mid-1920's that agrees with this one in every important particular. For my money, the two of them answer the question "Why hasn't this fabulous location been found?" Of course, others won't agree - but that's what these campfire conversations are all about.

There are still some missing pieces. Blair references a handful of newspaper articles I'd like to read. After all, the stories of the two main search expeditions are quite entertaining. But at this point, I think we can put this one to bed for a well-deserved rest.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

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[Clay Diggins]

Depends on date.

The smelting temperature of any silver ore is not dependent on date.

If you address your lack of knowledge of the physics of silver smelting this conversation might be useful for one of us. I could provide you with links to resources so you could understand some of the basics of the nature of smelting silver ore. Maybe to get a head start you could begin by investigating what a muffle furnace is.

Dissembling about gunpowder, stamp mills and sharing articles about how Navajo would steal silverware doesn't change the fact that there is zero historical evidence of the Apache or any other natives to the U.S. mainland ever smelting any ore ever.

 

[releventchair]

The smelting temperature of any silver ore is not dependent on date.

If you address your lack of knowledge of the physics of silver smelting this conversation might be useful for one of us. I could provide you with links to resources so you could understand some of the basics of the nature of smelting silver ore. Maybe to get a head start you could begin by investigating what a muffle furnace is.

Dissembling about gunpowder, stamp mills and sharing articles about how Navajo would steal silverware doesn't change the fact that there is zero historical evidence of the Apache or any other natives to the U.S. mainland ever smelting any ore ever.

You know I worked in a foundry quite awhile , right? In. Not around. Or reading about. Or sitting in a chair in a building containing a foundry.

And fired thousands of rounds from muzzle loading rifles as an avid student and participant in living history.

I don't speak for the Apache. Nor represent what they did.

Stamp mill mentioned earlier gives us an era in which natives were exposed to equipment and techniques. As additional links confirmed. including where exposure to smithing came from.
Until you can provide your dearth of documentation every person familier with or associated with a crude furnace , you might want to cool your jets about what a native did or didn't know about or participate in.

And while you're sputtering about smelting , try two flat rocks and a couple poorly shaped chunks of malleable material.
Move upper flat surface in a circular fashion to round the pieces..

Next drill a hole or hunt a long time to find a natural one where water can tumble an out of round chunk of material as it runs in and out. No , the Apache were not renown boat people.

One trick with ore was to take it to a furnace.
Maybe you don't have an Apache furnace works and smelting organization listed in your book of who smelted ore in America.

Do you know what I've melted outside a foundry using only hot coal?
And can you prove no one else could do so?
Or are you simply telling me no Apache could melt silver? I don't doubt it could be removed from a mine.

As a by product of mining , where did silver turn up? Netherlands? Az.?

 

[Clay Diggins]

You know I worked in a foundry quite awhile , right? In. Not around. Or reading about. Or sitting in a chair in a building containing a foundry.

And fired thousands of rounds from muzzle loading rifles as an avid student and participant in living history.

I don't speak for the Apache. Nor represent what they did.

Stamp mill mentioned earlier gives us an era in which natives were exposed to equipment and techniques. As additional links confirmed. including where exposure to smithing came from.
Until you can provide your dearth of documentation every person familier with or associated with a crude furnace , you might want to cool your jets about what a native did or didn't know about or participate in.

And while you're sputtering about smelting , try two flat rocks and a couple poorly shaped chunks of malleable material.
Move upper flat surface in a circular fashion to round the pieces..

Next drill a hole or hunt a long time to find a natural one where water can tumble an out of round chunk of material as it runs in and out. No , the Apache were not renown boat people.

One trick with ore was to take it to a furnace.
Maybe you don't have an Apache furnace works and smelting organization listed in your book of who smelted ore in America.

Do you know what I've melted outside a foundry using only hot coal?
And can you prove no one else could do so?
Or are you simply telling me no Apache could melt silver? I don't doubt it could be removed from a mine.

As a by product of mining , where did silver turn up? Netherlands? Az.?

And still with all your expertise in foundry work and knowledge of casting and ballistics it doesn't change the fact that there is zero historical evidence of the Apache or any other natives to the U.S. mainland ever smelting any ore ever.

No matter how many times you inform us of your abilities in these matters you can't refute that simple fact.

 

[releventchair]

And still with all your expertise in foundry work and knowledge of casting and ballistics it doesn't change the fact that there is zero historical evidence of the Apache or any other natives to the U.S. mainland ever smelting any ore ever.

No matter how many times you inform us of your abilities in these matters you can't refute that simple fact.

You're certain? And your documented studies have been peer reviewed supporting your claims?
History is wrong then to insist any Apache was ever a prisoner in the silver industry.
Must have been some other Apache from somewhere other than what would be called the U.S..

Apache slaves working silver at a foundry in Corralitos, Mexico

new mexico slavery - Fort Union National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

new mexico, slavery, genizaro, peons, navajos, apaches, utes, comanches, kiowas, san miguel del vado

www.nps.gov

 

[Clay Diggins]

Yes I'm certain.

A foundry huh? What does that have to do with mining silver? Why did you attribute the picture as being a foundry? Your links don't point to a foundry.

The foundry casts the final bars in a refinery. That's as close as a foundry gets to mining. Refineries refine metals. They don't mine them.

Are you suggesting Apache slaves somehow learned to refine silver (by breaking rocks as slaves in middle of nowhere Mexico?) then escaped and took that knowledge to create their own refinery where one or two specially trained escaped slaves would pour the refined silver into a bullet mould?

And nobody noticed?

p.s. Are you sure your drawing doesn't have some modern artistic license? It's got 4 guys standing around while three other guys do all the work. Seems more a government job than a slavery gig.

 

[releventchair]

Yes I'm certain.

A foundry huh? What does that have to do with mining silver? Why did you attribute the picture as being a foundry? Your links don't point to a foundry.

The foundry casts the final bars in a refinery. That's as close as a foundry gets to mining. Refineries refine metals. They don't mine them.

Are you suggesting Apache slaves somehow learned to refine silver (by breaking rocks as slaves in middle of nowhere Mexico?) then escaped and took that knowledge to create their own refinery where one or two specially trained escaped slaves would pour the refined silver into a bullet mould?

And nobody noticed?

p.s. Are you sure your drawing doesn't have some modern artistic license? It's got 4 guys standing around while three other guys do all the work. Seems more a government job than a slavery gig.

[ By 1692, they were present in the present-day state of Chihuahua, Mexico. They soon were also visiting Sonora and Coahuila and seem to have absorbed several other Indian peoples native to the future U.S.-Mexico border area, the Suma, Manso, Jano, and Jocome. Chihuahua, Sonora, and Coahuila were more populated and richer than the Spanish colonies in New Mexico, and Apache raiding soon became a serious problem. In 1737, a Spanish military officer said, "many mines have been destroyed, 15 large estancias [ranches] along the frontier have been totally destroyed, having lost two hundred head of cattle, mules, and horses; several missions have been burned and two hundred Christians have lost their lives to the Apache enemy, who sustains himself only with the bow and arrow, killing and stealing livestock."[3]]

Apache–Mexico Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Clay Diggins]

the Apache enemy, who sustains himself only with the bow and arrow, killing and stealing livestock."[3]]

Apache–Mexico Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It looks like your Wikipedia clipping agrees with me:

The Apache enemy who sustains himself only with the
bow and arrow (no silver bullets),
killing and stealing livestock (no mining)."

Maybe you can find another article that better illustrates your point? I'm not seeing your distinction.

 

[releventchair]

It looks like your Wikipedia clipping agrees with me:

The Apache enemy who sustains himself only with the
bow and arrow (no silver bullets),
killing and stealing livestock (no mining)."

Maybe you can find another article that better illustrates your point? I'm not seeing your distinction.

Start with location in that link.
Then topic of what was being destroyed.
Then apply the question of how Apache could be exposed to silver processing yet not be imprisoned till death.
When those mines were disrupted by attack ,what became of thier slaves? What of thier knowledge of metallurgy? Let alone slaves from farther South.


Outside of intervals where Apache were fed around missions , raiding was the trend. A long trend.
During persecution at it's greatest raiding still remained a way of life. Did slaves ever get liberated in the process?
Now your mention earlier of stolen silverware becomes fair play too? Or was it prohibited through some secret Apache rule prohibiting such ; only you know about and will divulge in your upcoming book about Apache metallurgy not involving ore refining?
Based of course on your firsthand experience among non ore working Apache.

 

[sdcfia]

If you delve into the world's history of "silver bullets", you'll find that the concept itself is simply an allegorical good-vs-bad meme in general, and has little or no historical proof all the way back to the ancient Greeks. It finds its way into folklore of all sorts, from killing vampires to the Lone Ranger vs outlaws to Apache ingenuity against their enemies.

Re Apaches casting their own bullets during their extended and fragmented guerilla war against Mexicans and Americans during the 19th Century? Technically, anything is possible, but there is NO proof it happened, and for good reasons. Just like many "possibilities" surrounding treasure legends used as corroborating "evidence" by their true believers, it's a fallacious argument to conflate a possibility with an alleged/unproven fact.

Did the Apaches "mine" minerals during the 19th Century? Yes, of course, but in a very limited sense, the most spectacular being the recovery of placer gold to trade with Mexicans and whites for usable goods, including firearms and ammunition at times. Beginning in the 1850s, read the accounts of the early Anglos in Apacheria, and the history of Janos. MX. Later, when things got tougher for them, the natives simply killed victims and stole their weaponry.

What about silver? As Clay Diggins pointed out, the Apache in no way mined silver ore, reduced it to concentrates, smelted it into metal and cast it into bullets. All while constantly on the run from their enemies. That's delusional thinking. Move on.

What about native silver? That would very likely only be coins, since deposits of native silver are exceedingly rare. Yes, having silver metal would technically open the door to supporting the myth. However, casting silver into bullets, even for experienced metal workers, is not easy. https://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/silver/silverbullets.shtml

Bottom line for me: nothing is impossible, but show me verified proof it happened and then I'll believe it too. Apaches either bought or stole their ammunition. Let's move on.

 

[Idahodutch]

If you delve into the world's history of "silver bullets", you'll find that the concept itself is simply an allegorical good-vs-bad meme in general, and has little or no historical proof all the way back to the ancient Greeks. It finds its way into folklore of all sorts, from killing vampires to the Lone Ranger vs outlaws to Apache ingenuity against their enemies.

Re Apaches casting their own bullets during their extended and fragmented guerilla war against Mexicans and Americans during the 19th Century? Technically, anything is possible, but there is NO proof it happened, and for good reasons. Just like many "possibilities" surrounding treasure legends used as corroborating "evidence" by their true believers, it's a fallacious argument to conflate a possibility with an alleged/unproven fact.

Did the Apaches "mine" minerals during the 19th Century? Yes, of course, but in a very limited sense, the most spectacular being the recovery of placer gold to trade with Mexicans and whites for usable goods, including firearms and ammunition at times. Beginning in the 1850s, read the accounts of the early Anglos in Apacheria, and the history of Janos. MX. Later, when things got tougher for them, the natives simply killed victims and stole their weaponry.

What about silver? As Clay Diggins pointed out, the Apache in no way mined silver ore, reduced it to concentrates, smelted it into metal and cast it into bullets. All while constantly on the run from their enemies. That's delusional thinking. Move on.

What about native silver? That would very likely only be coins, since deposits of native silver are exceedingly rare. Yes, having silver metal would technically open the door to supporting the myth. However, casting silver into bullets, even for experienced metal workers, is not easy. https://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/silver/silverbullets.shtml

Bottom line for me: nothing is impossible, but show me verified proof it happened and then I'll believe it too. Apaches either bought or stole their ammunition. Let's move on.

Oh, I don’t know ….. it’s been interesting, thought provoking, and even educational 🤓
Is it off topic … ? It’s not my thread, I’m just reading it 🤷🏼‍♂️👍

 

[releventchair]

Lone Ranger, Go Away

An attempt to cast the Lone Ranger's silver bullets. This classic article was written by Jack Lewis and published in Gun World in 1964. Published with permission.

www.hurog.com

 

[Old Bookaroo]

If you delve into the world's history of "silver bullets", you'll find that the concept itself is simply an allegorical good-vs-bad meme in general, and has little or no historical proof all the way back to the ancient Greeks. It finds its way into folklore of all sorts, from killing vampires to the Lone Ranger vs outlaws to Apache ingenuity against their enemies.

Re Apaches casting their own bullets during their extended and fragmented guerilla war against Mexicans and Americans during the 19th Century? Technically, anything is possible, but there is NO proof it happened, and for good reasons. Just like many "possibilities" surrounding treasure legends used as corroborating "evidence" by their true believers, it's a fallacious argument to conflate a possibility with an alleged/unproven fact.

Did the Apaches "mine" minerals during the 19th Century? Yes, of course, but in a very limited sense, the most spectacular being the recovery of placer gold to trade with Mexicans and whites for usable goods, including firearms and ammunition at times. Beginning in the 1850s, read the accounts of the early Anglos in Apacheria, and the history of Janos. MX. Later, when things got tougher for them, the natives simply killed victims and stole their weaponry.

What about silver? As Clay Diggins pointed out, the Apache in no way mined silver ore, reduced it to concentrates, smelted it into metal and cast it into bullets. All while constantly on the run from their enemies. That's delusional thinking. Move on.

What about native silver? That would very likely only be coins, since deposits of native silver are exceedingly rare. Yes, having silver metal would technically open the door to supporting the myth. However, casting silver into bullets, even for experienced metal workers, is not easy. https://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/silver/silverbullets.shtml

Bottom line for me: nothing is impossible, but show me verified proof it happened and then I'll believe it too. Apaches either bought or stole their ammunition. Let's move on.

As always, you make some excellent points. I would like to point out that regarding "native silver" while large deposits are, indeed, "exceedingly rare," we are writing about the American Southwest where legends thrive.

If I may quote myself:

The Lost Mine of Arizona - The Lost Mines of the Desert Part IX

The Lost Mines of the Desert - Part IX: LOST MINE of ARIZONA. from The Miner’s Guide; A Ready Handbook for the Prospector and Miner, by Horace J. West (Los Angeles: Second Edition — 1925) Note where the green border between the US and Old Mexico comes from the northwest and turns straight...

www.treasurenet.com

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[sdcfia]

As always, you make some excellent points. I would like to point out that regarding "native silver" while large deposits are, indeed, "exceedingly rare," we are writing about the American Southwest where legends thrive. ...

The Old Bookaroo

Point well taken. And, in that spirit, one of my favorite western movie clips

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Point well taken. And, in that spirit, one of my favorite western movie clips

Anyone who has studied the American Southwest's lost mines knows the truth about what you posted. Far too often it has been the legend that got printed. And printed. And printed...

The described find was so rich the King of Spain had it declared a treasure trove rather than a mine so he could claim more than just a fifth.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Crow]

hello Bookaroo

As always excellent posts by all concerned. I am enjoying this thread.

I gather your referring to Planchas de plata Sonora

While it was true most silver today in Arizona is by product of of copper mining smelting and gold and lead or composite mix of metals. Today native silver was rare. But parts of Southern Arizona in the very early days had quartz veins in almost pure silver. Native silver is almost pure. Yet please note definition of Arizona covered parts of Northern Sonora back then.

It is to see how such stories of discoveries evolve over time with each person adding some thing new. However I had no doubt Arizona is full of epithrermal vents with weather quartz some barren some with gold, some with pyrites and some with Silver.
Is there any rich out cropping to be found? It presumptuous to discount anything. Regardless the old time mining as the old west is dead. Because it comes down economies of scale.

As you all esteemed people now mining camps mines come and go? There ara thousands of broken dreams of shafts and pits across America and in fact around the world. The come and go but the legend lives on.

I have shares in company called Alien metals that own Elizabeth hill mine in western Australia Take a look at this baby take from a mine 144 kilos. That was one of many large pieces. ( That was from mine that was deemed not profitable and technically abandoned for 20 years. Until prices rose to make mining profitable.

The point I am trying to make is it is easy as this original story of discovery can change over time in each retelling. For me totally fascinating such stories take on life of their own. ( Dr throne story is classic example. )

I love the fire side stories and legends.( It would be a poor world if we did not have such legends ) But we have to take them with grain of salt. Yet be aware not to go to extreme of the other end of scale either.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Oh you know there is an old joke you know who made the most money from the gold rushes? The guy selling the shovel?

Crow

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Oh you know there is an old joke you know who made the most money from the gold rushes? The guy selling the shovel?

Crow

Crow - I've read that the San Francisco merchant Sam Brannon got early word regarding James Marshall's gold discovery at what is now Coloma. He went around the sleepy town and purchased every pick and shovel available. Brannan then got on a horse and rode down Montgomery Street yelling "Gold! GOLD! Gold in the American River!"

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[sdcfia]

... I love the fire side stories and legends. (It would be a poor world if we did not have such legends) But we have to take them with grain of salt. Yet be aware not to go to extreme of the other end of scale either.

Crow

As an abject rookie, I worked underground for six months at the Idarado Mine in the CO San Juans in 1974. The "side stories and legends" there were sometimes off the chart, but the things I personally experienced were very real - including the richness of the ore coming out of the late stages of exploitation of the Black Bear vein structure.

The very first hour of my very first day working there found me, along with the entire day crew of the ten-hundred level, harvesting native gold-in-quartz picture rock from a vug in the three-foot wide solid sulfide vein exposed by the night shift. They got a lot of it, but the end of their shift cut them off - it was a five mile tram ride back to the portal, and you didn't want to miss your ride. We got what was left. For me, the unknown new kid, about a double handful of jewelry rock every bit as rich as those pictures of the Lost Dutchman ore.

Management turned a blind eye to the high grading, as I quickly discovered. My job partner's dad worked the night shift. We went over to dad's house in Montrose one day and I saw maybe three wooden dynamite boxes in the garage full of similar ore. Not nearly as rich as above, but lots of fine visible gold in quartz. The ore was sold once a year to a Chinese agent. I don't have any idea how those transactions were carried out, some sort of word of mouth thing between the miners.

Like that massive metal chunk in AU, here's another extreme example of what's possible when things are "out of sight, out of mind".

As is the case of many mining towns, few remember or understand just why most of these places are on the map. Telluride, named for the type of gold ore found there during the heyday of mining, is no exception. Dating from the last gasp of this bygone era is this extraordinary gold specimen. At 1.27 Troy Pounds (460 grams) and 4 ½ x 3 ½ x 1 ½ inches it is arguably the largest surviving example of native gold from the district. It was "high-graded" by Clarence "Clancy" Fleetwood of Ouray, Colorado in 1948: "Clancy" being one of the miners working at that time in the Idarado Mine. "High-grading"; a wide-spread practice in gold mines, was a euphemism for miners stealing rich ore samples from the daily ore production. Ironically; had it not been "high-graded' chances are this specimen would now be part of someone's jewelry instead of a rare example of its type. "Clancy" found the specimen in an 18 inch diameter "blow-out" or cavity in a quartz vein. Approximately 60% of the gold was visible when it was first discovered; the rest was exposed in cleaning and etching. Visual inspection shows it to be a very large aggregate of high-karat crystalline gold shaped vaguely like a bear. Intergrown with it are fragmentary remnants of white quartz which are partially etched and some minor micro minerals. "Clancy's Bear" was pictured on page 245 of the Mineralogical Record Vol. 14., Number 4, 1983. Additional historic data relating to provenance accompanies it. This includes: photos of Clarence "Clancy" Fleetwood, a copy of the Mineralogical Record article and accession data. Ex Tresa Kosnar Collection # Au579BB ("Clancy" Fleetwood was Tresa's maternal grandfather), and custom acrylic base.

 

[Clay Diggins]

View attachment 2099675

As is the case of many mining towns, few remember or understand just why most of these places are on the map. Telluride, named for the type of gold ore found there during the heyday of mining, is no exception. Dating from the last gasp of this bygone era is this extraordinary gold specimen. At 1.27 Troy Pounds (460 grams) and 4 ½ x 3 ½ x 1 ½ inches it is arguably the largest surviving example of native gold from the district. It was "high-graded" by Clarence "Clancy" Fleetwood of Ouray, Colorado in 1948: "Clancy" being one of the miners working at that time in the Idarado Mine. "High-grading"; a wide-spread practice in gold mines, was a euphemism for miners stealing rich ore samples from the daily ore production. Ironically; had it not been "high-graded' chances are this specimen would now be part of someone's jewelry instead of a rare example of its type. "Clancy" found the specimen in an 18 inch diameter "blow-out" or cavity in a quartz vein. Approximately 60% of the gold was visible when it was first discovered; the rest was exposed in cleaning and etching. Visual inspection shows it to be a very large aggregate of high-karat crystalline gold shaped vaguely like a bear. Intergrown with it are fragmentary remnants of white quartz which are partially etched and some minor micro minerals. "Clancy's Bear" was pictured on page 245 of the Mineralogical Record Vol. 14., Number 4, 1983. Additional historic data relating to provenance accompanies it. This includes: photos of Clarence "Clancy" Fleetwood, a copy of the Mineralogical Record article and accession data. Ex Tresa Kosnar Collection # Au579BB ("Clancy" Fleetwood was Tresa's maternal grandfather), and custom acrylic base.

That's hilarious. There was no Telluride ore or gold mined in Telluride Colorado. This gold did not come from Telluride. Typical bogus advertising and bad research from Heritage.

The Idarado is in an entirely different district in Ouray about an hours drive from Telluride. The Idarado was primarily a lead mine but it did produce some fine rich gold specimens. I have a few raw jewelry grade pieces in my collection.