DUTCHMAN CLUES ONLY WITH RULES

[Dirty Dutchman]

If this is true, one could say that Waltz was a man of integrity and may not have been capable of murder. Just a thought.

My thoughts exactly. I think he and his partner "accidentally" shot the two Mexicans, but I don't believe Waltz was a killer. Most of my belief comes from Waltz feeling guilty about his partner, as he explained to Julia.

Thanks
Travis

 

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[ELBAYO]

Dirty Dutchman get ahold of me ASAP.


Double-jack....

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Dirty Dutchman get ahold of me ASAP.


Double-jack....

I sent you my new number. Call me and ill give you my new email.

Thanks
Travis

 

[Oroblanco]

Correct. So we can eliminate the 20 million ounces statement. It's clearly a tall tail. Unless Waltz had a survey done on the mine. Sure he did!

Well I would beg to differ on this, and say that you are indeed free and welcome to dismiss the 20 million ounces statement as a tall tale, the statement by itself, is not proven false. Waltz was not poor when he died, and witnesses saw him selling gold in what would be considered large quantities (today). He had enough gold secreted around his place to help his friend Julia Thomas save her business, and then some 48 pounds left under his bed to boot. That he chose not to live like a billionaire does not prove a thing, I know a couple of very wealthy people whom do not live any higher on the hog, so to speak, than I do. If you have all you want in life, one is satisified, after all; for some, that would mean living the life of a Rockefeller with gold-plated toilets, but for others it is something much less sophisticated.

Rather than fully derail this topic and irritate the owner, let me add another clue that I like:

"From above my mine, a pointed peak is visible to the north"

Most Dutch hunters have assumed this refers to Weavers Needle, although there are several pointed peaks in the area. I don't think the clue is all that helpful in locating the mine, but wonder which peak Waltz really was referring to?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

Oroblanco

You wrote :

"From above my mine, a pointed peak is visible to the north"

Most Dutch hunters have assumed this refers to Weavers Needle, although there are several pointed peaks in the area. I don't think the clue is all that helpful in locating the mine, but wonder which peak Waltz really was referring to? "

IMO , The peak is the Four Peaks in one line . When he said how " is visible " , that means how is afar but however you can see it .

 

[Somero]

Seems there could be quite a few different pointed peaks out there. Without a reference of "it's taller than most" or "Mexican miners used the spires as markers" a pointed peak could be any number of formations, and it may not be pointed anymore.

 

[coazon de oro]

Seems there could be quite a few different pointed peaks out there. Without a reference of "it's taller than most" or "Mexican miners used the spires as markers" a pointed peak could be any number of formations, and it may not be pointed anymore.

Good point

 

[WATASHA]

Seems there could be quite a few different pointed peaks out there. Without a reference of "it's taller than most" or "Mexican miners used the spires as markers" a pointed peak could be any number of formations, and it may not be pointed anymore.

Hello Somero,

I don't know if this is true or not, but I have heard that a 3rd party (I have no knowledge of who the translator was) translated the German to English in the "Clues" from the Bible. I trust that source, but I don't know their source well enough to be sure.

To me it seems that Jacob Waltz was using slang. The reason I say that is because of all the "extra words" they put in parenthesis to try to describe one particular word. I myself have noticed some discrepancies in those translations. They use that same German word in two different sentences, but when it was translated a different English word was used. I'm not that familiar with German (Ok, all I know is Volkswagen), but I did find that the sentence made more sense when I used the other English word.

BUT, now that I've found out the Bible may be false, I guess that may not matter much. It's still good reading though, even if it's fiction. Guess that just leaves the Holmes account and the various other clues available. Not sure how reliable the Holmes account is either though. It sounds pretty "out there" to me. The more I learn about this, the more it makes me question whether or not Jacob Waltz was ever in the United States.

Thanks for your time,
Waylon

 

[Somero]

Waylon

Hope you don't get to discouraged trying to pry a little truth out of the Dutchman mess. Seems the more you dig the more muck you find to waller in, I guess it come down to what you would like to believe would be common sense. Any thoughts you have I'd be interested in, so long as it does not involve UFO's and Bigfoot, we can leave those for another forum

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello Somero,

I don't know if this is true or not, but I have heard that a 3rd party (I have no knowledge of who the translator was) translated the German to English in the "Clues" from the Bible. I trust that source, but I don't know their source well enough to be sure.

To me it seems that Jacob Waltz was using slang. The reason I say that is because of all the "extra words" they put in parenthesis to try to describe one particular word. I myself have noticed some discrepancies in those translations. They use that same German word in two different sentences, but when it was translated a different English word was used. I'm not that familiar with German (Ok, all I know is Volkswagen), but I did find that the sentence made more sense when I used the other English word.

BUT, now that I've found out the Bible may be false, I guess that may not matter much. It's still good reading though, even if it's fiction. Guess that just leaves the Holmes account and the various other clues available. Not sure how reliable the Holmes account is either though. It sounds pretty "out there" to me. The more I learn about this, the more it makes me question whether or not Jacob Waltz was ever in the United States.

Thanks for your time,
Waylon

The Bible by Helen Corbin includes a good amount of info that is false, which was not her fault as it came from a highly trusted source (whom is online here) so you are wise to be wary of the info in it. This mud added to the water does not change the basics however, and the old book The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely remains as "the" best source on the topic in the opinion of many Dutch hunters. John D. Mitchell's article came out earlier than Ely's book but has basically the same info. Helen Corbin's first book on the topic is not based on that faulty source that has tainted the Bible, the title is Curse of the Dutchman's Gold <if memory serves> and has excellent info.

A major problem is that it appears that a different lost mine story, perhaps several, have gotten "blended" into the original Dutchman story, making a hodge-podge of clues that cannot fit any lost mine as they do not come from the same mine in the first place. The lost mine of the Ludy brothers, aka Peralta mine, almost certainly is not one and the same as the Dutchman's mine. The lost Soldier mine story also seems to have gotten blended into Waltz's story, for no good reason at all. As to the Holmes Manuscript; if you simply look at the Holmes manuscript, and compare it with the actions of Dick Holmes on the death of Waltz, you will see that the manuscript may well be deliberately misleading. For instance, in the manuscript, you are instructed to go first to First Water, and yet the very first place that Dick Holmes went on the death of Waltz was to Hidden Water spring! He had trailed Waltz there in his attempt to follow him to the mine, and actions always speak louder than words.

I will try to tie this back in to the clues - and one is not stated but indicated by actions too; Waltz left his partner at the mine to go and purchase supplies to replace those lost to a recalcitrant mule, and he went to Adams Mill, which is a few miles from Florence His partner, on being attacked by Indians, fled the mountains to come out near Sacaton, which is down river from Adams Mill and Florence. Both places are south of the Superstitions. The fact that both men headed in that direction should indicate something to us, at least it does to me.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

The Pitt mine is in the right place for all that

 

[WATASHA]

The Bible by Helen Corbin includes a good amount of info that is false, which was not her fault as it came from a highly trusted source (whom is online here) so you are wise to be wary of the info in it. This mud added to the water does not change the basics however, and the old book The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely remains as "the" best source on the topic in the opinion of many Dutch hunters. John D. Mitchell's article came out earlier than Ely's book but has basically the same info. Helen Corbin's first book on the topic is not based on that faulty source that has tainted the Bible, the title is Curse of the Dutchman's Gold <if memory serves> and has excellent info.

A major problem is that it appears that a different lost mine story, perhaps several, have gotten "blended" into the original Dutchman story, making a hodge-podge of clues that cannot fit any lost mine as they do not come from the same mine in the first place. The lost mine of the Ludy brothers, aka Peralta mine, almost certainly is not one and the same as the Dutchman's mine. The lost Soldier mine story also seems to have gotten blended into Waltz's story, for no good reason at all. As to the Holmes Manuscript; if you simply look at the Holmes manuscript, and compare it with the actions of Dick Holmes on the death of Waltz, you will see that the manuscript may well be deliberately misleading. For instance, in the manuscript, you are instructed to go first to First Water, and yet the very first place that Dick Holmes went on the death of Waltz was to Hidden Water spring! He had trailed Waltz there in his attempt to follow him to the mine, and actions always speak louder than words.

I will try to tie this back in to the clues - and one is not stated but indicated by actions too; Waltz left his partner at the mine to go and purchase supplies to replace those lost to a recalcitrant mule, and he went to Adams Mill, which is a few miles from Florence His partner, on being attacked by Indians, fled the mountains to come out near Sacaton, which is down river from Adams Mill and Florence. Both places are south of the Superstitions. The fact that both men headed in that direction should indicate something to us, at least it does to me.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Oroblanco

I don't feel comfortable commenting on Corbin's book because I don't know which parts are false. And as far as the Holmes manuscript.... Who knows?

But on your question as to why Waltz went south ill say this: Because that's where the supplies were.

And to answer why his partner (if he really had one) went south ill say this: Because the Indians were to the north.

Maybe I just haven't thought of what you've thought of, and that could very well be. I've been reading about this for about 7 years and keep getting stumped, which is why I joined the forum. Maybe I'm getting stumped because of all the disinformation that's out there? But I'm still having fun reading through the material on here and seeing the different opinions. Plus I'm picking up a lot that you don't find in the books!

Thanks for giving me some things to think about!
Waylon

 

[393stroker]

The path of least resistance= downhill.

 

[Oroblanco]

The Pitt mine is in the right place for all that

Indeed, the Pit mine fits a number of the clues, which are associated with the Ludy brothers/Peralta mine, and not Waltz, also it is very probably one of the workings of the mines which formerly existed in that canyon and had nothing to do with Waltz.

Watasha wrote

Oroblanco

I don't feel comfortable commenting on Corbin's book because I don't know which parts are false. And as far as the Holmes manuscript.... Who knows?

But on your question as to why Waltz went south ill say this: Because that's where the supplies were.

And to answer why his partner (if he really had one) went south ill say this: Because the Indians were to the north.

Maybe I just haven't thought of what you've thought of, and that could very well be. I've been reading about this for about 7 years and keep getting stumped, which is why I joined the forum. Maybe I'm getting stumped because of all the disinformation that's out there? But I'm still having fun reading through the material on here and seeing the different opinions. Plus I'm picking up a lot that you don't find in the books!

Thanks for giving me some things to think about!
Waylon

My comment on Helen's Bible, relate to certain passages in it, which do not tally with the original records they purportedly come from. It would be a tedious job to go through it and cross-check with other sources, but if you wish to use this book as your source, it is necessary and could prove worth your while. I learned of the problems in the Bible from Mr Corbin himself.

On the Holmes manuscript, there are provable falsehoods in it; for instance, in the portion where Waltz tells Holmes that he never filed a claim on the mine because he was not a citizen, this is false; Waltz became a US citizen before even coming to Arizona. Just an example, and there are others if you look for them. As to who or whom lied, well we don't even know for a certainty that Holmes even wrote the manuscript, and it is quite possible that Waltz himself lied to Holmes in telling it to him, remember after all, he had caught Holmes trying to track him to his mine. We do not have to name names and call people liars, all writers are at the mercy of their sources after all. Suppose I told you a story that I had been told, and I believed it to be true, then later it was proven false - would that make me the liar? Anyway when it comes to lost riches, falsehoods are not slow to creep into the facts.

It is good practice to cross-check any and all info on the Lost Dutchman if possible, because of this very problem that errors and falsehoods have gotten mixed into what was, while not quite the dramatic tale we have today, still amazing enough.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[hooch]

Waltz stated there was enough gold left showing in his mine (when he left it) to make millionaires of twenty men; with gold then at $20.67 per ounce meaning a million ounces of gold were still showing. No one, certainly not the lucky and successful persons who found and mined the rich vein in the Pit mine, has ever brought out a million ounces of gold from any mine in the Superstition mountains. Most, and more probably all of that million ounces showing is still in the mine.
.
Oroblanco

I'd more than likely say the Dutchman was really shitty at math no matter what his schooling rumors were

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I just have to put in...perhaps some of these "pit mines" are in fact apache or Yavapai cooking pits for agave.

Agave Roasting: Prehistoric Puebloan and Apache Tradition

 

[Somero]

Been pondering that "Doodle" supposedly made by Waltz, is it possible the position of the Needle might be wrong. Something like a ROUGH sketch just to identify it as the Needle, and the rest of the sketch more relevant to what is in front of you?

Not thinking the paper is backwards or see through, just a kinda "and the Needle is visible here, not necessarily like this, but if you follow my directions this terrain should be in front of you."

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Way, he never was , just outside of Strassburg.

Jose.


Joking of course

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd afternoon mi buddy Pipipaws: Coffee is ready. I'll have to tell you about roasting and fermenting some day, one of them Had a 30 30 trained on my back for two days, but we parted friends and even had a whole roasted Mescal plant to eat for a few days. Tastes like dried Apricots. good, especialy on the trail.

Jose

 

[wrmickel1]

Been pondering that "Doodle" supposedly made by Waltz, is it possible the position of the Needle might be wrong. Something like a ROUGH sketch just to identify it as the Needle, and the rest of the sketch more relevant to what is in front of you?

Not thinking the paper is backwards or see through, just a kinda "and the Needle is visible here, not necessarily like this, but if you follow my directions this terrain should be in front of you."

Somero

I don't think the position of the needle is wrong, The directions from the get go are wrong!
Waltz drew what he saw, His direction to the mine to, Is was what he saw and new, the shortest quickest way. Forget about all the other routs, that he took. The shorts quickest way,
is most likely his directions. Take the army trail till you see the doodle thats were you turn in,

Today there are picnic tables there! Go see for your self its a exact match!

Good Luck Wrmickel1