Help ID Pistol Please.

[SoMdRelicHunter]

Hey guys,
Dug this pistol at the last DIV, mixed in with a bunch of Gardners, Ringtails, and Teardrops. (And a few Confederate buttons although not dug by me but I did get to watch my old man dig a nice little VA cuff) I tried like hell to find the barrel with no luck...I cannot seem to find a match for this anywhere. Checked all the books I have (admittedly not as many on guns as I should have in my arsenal I suppose) Also searched online to no avail...
I really like this piece a ton and would love to figure out what it is. Figured there's no one better at the gift of ID'ing things on the internet than y'all here!
Thanks a lot for your help!!

-JP

 

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[Diggit]

This is not from a real firearm. If it were, the pieces would be of brass,or at very least a better quality steel.
You can tell from the oxidation of the metal that it is a poor quality steel. That and the pinned nature of the trigger guard as well as the trigger profile lead me to believe that this is from a replica or toy.
Some of these factors would have been incorporated into real firearms,yes.
But the combination of factors and preponderance of evidence says it is a replica.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Please correct me if you think I'm wrong in my assumption, but I believe most of us will agree that whatever it is ~ real or toy ~ pistol or rifle, that it most likely did not have a cylinder, which for me narrows it down to one of two possible categories ...


1. Single shot pistol (flintlock / boot type).

or

2. Rifle part (with seemingly endless types).

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Yes I think this is true BUT the barrel sits on an iron bedding assembly and not on wood like most modern rifles and flintlocks. I think its a toy very similar to the ones posted (Johnnies Little Gun and Hubley Midget)

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm still looking for and at diagrams showing the internal workings of various pistols - rifles - and also shot guns as Nola suggested. I'm no gun expert, but based on the example diagrams below, I can't help but wonder if so many internal moving parts could corrode together and become a single rusted clump as they appear to be on SMRH's item? Or is the rusted clump just the portion that went below the moving parts?


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View attachment 626351


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In both the firearms pictured, the missing barrel sits on wood like modern rifles. We are looking for something unique where the barrel sits in an iron bedding.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Big Cy ~

I agree!

I'm definitely leaning towards single shot flintlock-type pistol, but I'm still confused as to whether its real or a toy? I think the enlarged picture below is worthy of closer inspection. Notice how it flares out or has a nub at the bottom. Also notice how there appears to be a groove/channel running along the so called barrel part/base.

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[Bigcypresshunter]

The nub at the bottom is because the wood/plastic/ivory grips are missing. Note the screw hole in other pic. You have drawn in the grips with your red lines. But yes I agree a good clue.

The channel groove is to seat the barrel and keep it in place. My muzzleloader rifle has these grooves in the bedding but its wood not iron. This type of iron bedding is very unique and I have not seen an example of this posted yet except in the toys.

 

[creskol]

In both the firearms pictured, the missing barrel sits on wood like modern rifles. We are looking for something unique where the barrel sits in an iron bedding.

Not necessarily .. look at JP's "Old Revolver" post: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/291811-old-revolver.html
The trigger assembly in this photo has the same "cradle" profile as SODABOTTLEBOB's does.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

What's This? Same ~ Similar ~ or Different? Note that its all metal and has a nubbed handle.

LINK: Very very very old pistol - TheFirearmsForum.Com

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Not necessarily .. look at JP's "Old Revolver" post: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/291811-old-revolver.html
The trigger assembly in this photo has the same "cradle" profile as SODABOTTLEBOB's does.

How do I post a double quote? Sorry Creskol. Your picture is showing the "cradle" for the frame and cylinder. Bob has pictured muzleloaders, not revolvers, and in both examples the barrels are set in wood like I said. . As far as I know, my statement is correct.


But you have opened the possibility that we may be looking at a revolver.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Not necessarily .. look at JP's "Old Revolver" post: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/291811-old-revolver.html
The trigger assembly in this photo has the same "cradle" profile as SODABOTTLEBOB's does.

What's This? Same ~ Similar ~ or Different? Note that its all metal and has a nubbed handle.

LINK: Very very very old pistol - TheFirearmsForum.Com

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IMO different. The barrel is missing completely from the second pic. And Creskol opened the possibility that the frame and cylinder may also be missing as well.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

SoMdRelicHunter ~

What is your opinion (best guess) regarding the nubbed end ... do you think its the actual end nub of the handle, or just a clumpy, rusted area and that there was originally more below it? The reason I ask is because it looks rounded off like the finishing touch to the handle. And if you believe the nub is the end cap, then that will definitely change my search wording ... meaning it will lead me to believe its a small hand gun of some type and not a large revolver or rifle.

Thanks.

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think its an actual heavy iron nub.

Thinking about Creskols revolver posting, I took the cylinder off my old Colt revolver to take a look. I think the possibility exists that this could be an old revolver but severely rusted down (at red line) and the rest fused together. Note that mine is Brass. It would have had to be broken and/or sat upside down for years in water, such as in a bucket, to do this and leave the trigger intact..

So until we can find an iron bedding flintlock, it looks like its either a toy or heavily rusted down revolver.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It would sure help to electrifry it to see if its one solid frame or several large parts fused together.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

That knobbed end does look like an old flintlock pistol. I could imagine its use as a head knocker after you fire your one shot..

What about a tip-up pistol like the one by Stevens but with a trigger guard or an old one shot tip up parlor pistol? That large trigger guard reminds me of an air gun but Im out of ideas..

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Big Cy and Creskols ~

If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that SoMdRelicHunter's rusted artifact might be similar to part number 22 shown below where the red arrow is pointing? (But is missing the barrel and everything else). If this is in fact what you're saying, then I am inclined to agree with you. Providing, that is, that SMRH doesn't come along and say he believes the nub is a finished part of the "outer" handle.

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This parts diagram is of a Colt revolver, but I'm not sure how old.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

According to the parts diagram and link below, that particular type of trigger guard is from a ...

Colt Model 1877 Double Action Revolver

Link: Working Colt’s Model 1877 Double-Action Revolvers

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Go to link for enlarged image and text. See part No.44 ~ Screw No.51 went into Hole No.48 to hold the wood grips in place.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

In response to Creskols post, I am only saying that a severely rusted revolver could be considered as a slim possibility. But I have part #44 in my hand from my Colt and it doesnt have a knob and the wood grips go all the way to the very bottom.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Could it be the item in question is a rusted ...

You're going to be surprised when you see this link: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/275073-trigger-guard-assembly.html

... trigger guard?


I'm not saying identical to this one, but of a similar type?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It doesnt have a knob on the bottom. Im trying to post.

My pics are not posting...

 

[creskol]

Until it has had a bath, it will be hard to really get an ID.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

In response to Creskols post, I am only saying that a severely rusted revolver could be considered as a slim possibility. But I have part #44 in my hand from my Colt and it doesnt have a knob and the wood grips go all the way to the very bottom.

Big Cy ~

I hear ya, but notice that what you're seeing on the "outside" is part No.41 which is the Backstrap. The bottom of the trigger guard is "inside." Maybe (just maybe) the nub is the squarish part at the bottom of the trigger guard, but rusted into a rounded shape.

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