Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

~ K of P ~

 

[Bramblefind]

WTG Bob! Here is my try at enlarging the pic - probably someone else here can do better with it-

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Bramblefind ~

Thank you so much. I don't want to jump the gun here, but I zoomed in on it and vote ...

"It's the same (or real similar) pin ~ Both handles and blades"

{ It even has the same heart shape under the W }

SBB

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Y'all don't need to lose your eyesight studying what's on the clamshell guard on the W VA pin ...it has the K-superimposed-on-P ...same as seen on Bill_S's pin. Look on the right-side blade, just above where the two blades cross each other. (Exact same place as on Bill_S's pin.) Remember, in the pin-orientation seen in the photo, the K-superimposed-on-P is upside down.

To my eyes, it's actually more visible/legible on the W VA pin without magnification.

Edit: Heh. SodaBottleBob and I were typing at the same time. He beat me to posting by 41 seconds.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Okay, folks. This is a team project. I'd say we are hot on the trail to something now!

 

[allan]

washington volunteer artillery ? wisconson ? war veterans of america ? western states of america ?washington volunteer army ? maybe an academy related to the kop ? or maybe just a military academy ? getting closer guys

wentworth military academy in missouri? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wentworth_Military_Academy_and_Junior_College

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I'm thinking (hoping) if we can identify the new pin, that it might turn up some clues that will help identify Bill_S's pin. I often get in trouble when I assume too much, but in this particular case I cannot help but suspect that ...

The 30 is for ~ Knights of Pythias ~ City unknown ~ West Virginia ~ Lodge no.30

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Allan wrote:
> I was looking for info on the pin that looks like the one Bob found and thought that
> maybe the number 30 was the lodge number but # 30 is here ALBERMARLE,
> Lodge #30; ELIZABETH CITY North Carolina, sooo whats the wva mean ?

Look at the Missouri KoP location listings you posted. Three points about them:
1- KoP Lodges within a state seem to be numbered in order of the founding-date. Thus, other states will also have a "Lodge #24." When a city has more than one Lodge, the first one founded in that city is listed as #1.
2- As the listing you posted shows, there can be a Missouri KoP Lodge #17, and a Missouri KoP-UR lodge #17.
3- As mentioned by KoP Supreme Secretary Mr. Saltzman, the KoP-UR was "militaristic" and named their lodges/units as Divisions, Regiments, Companys, etc. That too shows up in your Missouri listing.

I also note that in the Missouri listing of "Negro" KoP-UR units, one is simply listed as Company F. Another is listed as Company C, located in Mound City.

So, Allan, in appreciation for your posting of that very enlightening listing of Missouri KoP lodges and KoP-UR units, I tip my ol' Confederate artilleryman's red-trimmed grey kepi to you. Also, to SodaBottleBob for coming up with the photo of the W VA pin. I do think those letters mean West Virginia. I'm mindful that Bill_S's KoP-UR pin was dug in Missouri. Based on that, and the W Va pin, and the Missouri KoP-UR listings, I now lean toward thinking the missing letter on Bill_S's pin was an M ...being MO above the swords, and C below the swords ...representing "Negro" KoP-UR Missouri unit Company C ...located in Mound City, MO.

Or perhaps, Missouri KoP-UR cavalry troop C. I noticed that there is a troop A is in the Missouri KoP-UR listings.

Of course, I could be in error. (Wouldn't be the first time.) We'll see what the KoP Supreme Secretary says when he gets the photos of the two crossed-swords pins.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I just want to acknowledge allan's post, which I missed seeing alltogether, where he already commented on the no.30 possibly being a lodge number. I also acknowledge TCG response to allan. I missed seeing both replies. I had so many to look at when I got home earlier. Anyway, I'm back on track and looking into some West Virginia stuff.

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[allan]

Hats off to everyone, dang I had all that info in front of me and I missed it, I think it is time for a break for the night and tommorow I am going to use my 30 inch tv for a monitor lol. I am wondering now what I missed due to this searching while exhausted episode ? lol Bob I think you are going to pin this down soon and CBG thanks

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

There are more than one kind of "crossed" swords ...

 

[ivan salis]

very good allen -- now where is mound city Mo - is it close to sedalina , mo where the item was found -- if so it might have been a drill feild lost item -- of the "mound city M O (missori) company "C" Uniform Rank of the nergo Knights of Pythias group

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I initially introduced this Knights of Pythias kepi hat (Missouri 46) back on post #142. I asked about the meaning of the term Uniform Rank (UR). On post #143 TheCannonballGuy responded with a very informative explanation.

I was still a little curious about it, so I did some additional research. I came across another one of these Missouri kepis, but this time it had more information. I was happy to discover (which I never paid any attention to until now) that these hats had a silver button on each side, which is referred to in the text. So if nothing else, this should confirm that this was at least one type of hat that the K of P Uniform Ranks wore.

However, unless I missed something along the way, I don't recall it being established (confirmed) whether the 46 represented a "Regiment/Company" number, or whether it represented a "Lodge" number?

I have already started a search for a picture of one of the buttons, but so far it has been like looking for a needle in a haystack.

The primary purpose of this line of research is with the hope of finding a solid connection with Bill_S's pin and Missouri, as well as an explaination for the letters. At this point, I think it is safe to say we are still "guessing" and "assuming" that the missing letter is an "M." There is still a very distinct possibility it is some other letter such as the "C" or "O" and other letters that have been suggested. If Bill_S's pin had a number on the bottom like the W. Va. 30 I found, then I would be more inclined to belive the missing letter is for a state. But at this juncture, even the "C" on the pin is under question in my opinion.

SBB

[ Text with reference to UR button ] [ The Henderson Ames Co. also made swords ]

Knights of Pythias ceremonial kepi. The brim is made of black felt, with silver embroidered laurel wreath, calla lilies and "46" on the front. The crown is bright blue and has a silver embroidered red velvet diamond with calla lily in center, above "Missouri". Either side of cap has a silver button, marked "UNIFORM RANK / KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS" surrounding a calla lily, which holds the knotted silver braid rope cap band on. Black rubberized or leather visor, with the retailer "HENDERSON AMES CO." Embossed olive/brown cotton lining and leather sweat band.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

In the course of my ongoing research to try and make some logical sense of the numbers and letters, I found the following kepis, which are similar hats, but from different states. The last one (Kentucky) is still a bit of a mystery to me. The description that came with it was no help at all. I believe that's a "Lily" on the front, but I am not 100% sure. Notice the picture of the inside that show what "may" be a lily. Also compare the Kentucky lily to the Massachusetts lily. I have been unable to completely desipher the words.

But most interesting of all, notice that the Kentucky hat and the Rhode Island hat both have a number 10. So is this a "Lodge" number or a "Regiment" number. Surely it's not a "State" number! (That is to say it "may not" be a state number ~ it depends on whether or not the Kentucky hat is even a P of H hat?)

SBB

[ States are self evident ] [ Except for the mysterious Kentucky example ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

And to conclude this morning's entertainment, I would like to introduce the following ...

"Opinion Poll"

Because of the photographer's information on the back, I'm pretty sure the following photograph is of some guy from Missouri. (I suppose he could have lived in New York and had his picture taken in Missouri, but doubtful in my opinion).

But iregardless of that, the question is ~ Do you think the individual pictured is ...

A Knight of Pythias?

(The reason I am posting this picture is because it was one of very few photos I could find of a fraternal member of any kind from Missouri that "might" be a Knight of Pythias. And if he is a Knight of Pythias, then maybe Bill_S's pin belonged to him. Wouldn't that be a hoot?)

By the way, I know the answer to my poll question. I just thought it might be fun to test our knowledge regarding how to recognize a true Knight of Pythias. Especially one from Missouri.

This is post #236 ~ The answer is on post #238 ~ But please don't peek yet. Guess first.

Thanks



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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

P.S. ~

Just in case I didn't make my point clear in my previous three post, I would like to clarify by saying that because "numbers" are so often used with various Knights of Pythias items, (like on the kepi hats) I honestly have to wonder about the "letters" on Bill_S's pin. Why isn't there a number on it? After all, the caps all have a number. As does the West Virginia pin! I think there is something missing here that we haven't put our fingers on just yet, but I'm not sure what it is. It's the bottom "C" on Bill_S's pin that baffles me the most! If it was a number, this "What Is It?" would likely be solved already

Thanks.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

~ Answer to post #236 ~

Here is a confirmed photograph of a "Knight of Pythias" from Missouri.

The description with the photo on #236 only said "Photo of a fraternal member," with no mention of the Knights of Pythias. A lot of people, myself included until recently, don't know the difference between one fraternal pin and another. And often times they don't even know the difference between a Civil War military uniform and a fraternal ceremonial uniform.

 

[allan]

the hat pin and the sleeve pin gave it away lol and the buckle ,the sash if clearer would be another sign some stuff has lodge others seem to have company /division numbers, also I think the UR had numbers of their own also. there are lodges, castles and domains. quite the confusing array of info !

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Now we have "two" individuals that the pin (if from Missouri) might have belonged to.

I ditto the "confusing information" comment. No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to make sense regarding the letters and the numbers. Meaning, I have my opinions, but I just can't "confirm" anything.

Take for example the West Virginia pin; We know it's a Knights of Pythias pin - we know what state it's from ... but what the heck does the 30 represent?

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[allan]

I spent some time this morning before going off to fight the Puerto rican beauracracy looking into a UR 30 or a KOP 30 in W.Va. no luck yet but I did find a lil info on a black#10 "unit" and a lil more, have a few links to track down yet but my searching is now easier using the 30" tv as a monitor.I will post later after I take my nap and dinner lol