Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

[allan]

list of uniformed ranks in Mo.(may not be complete)
Brilliant Division, No.1 (Uniformed Ranks)
Damon Division, No.6 (Uniformed Ranks)
Future Great Company, No.5 (Uniformed Ranks)
Headquarters, 2d Regiment , (Uniform Rank)
Holmes, John H. Company, No.11 (Uniformed Ranks)
Hope Div., No.22 (Uniformed Ranks?)
Missouri Brigade Uniform Rank
Rathbone Division, No.17 (Uniformed Ranks) (East St. Louis)
Red Cross Division, No.4 (Uniformed Ranks)
Scandia Div., No.5 (Uniformed Ranks?)
St. Louis Div., No.55 (Uniformed Ranks?)
Star Div. No.9 (Uniformed Rank of K.P.)
Wabash Division, No.55 (Uniformed Rank) also the wabash lodge number is 248
Zulema Temple, No.54 (D.O.K.K.) (Uniformed Ranks)


newly added to list

Company F (Uniformed Ranks)






A small black order, formed when they discovered they would not be admitted to the Knights proper.
Battle Axe Lodge, No.4 (Uniformed Ranks)
Columbian Battle Axe Cadets, No.1 (Uniformed Ranks)
Far West Lodge, No.2 (Uniformed Ranks)
Mound City, Company C, (Uniformed Rank)
Pythian Lodge, (Uniformed Ranks)
Troop A, 1st Cavalry (Uniformed Ranks) < a black cavalry unit


nice informative article

springfield mo good article http://www.myspace.com/470498315/blog



interesting tidbit By 1896, the Pythians numbered 456,944 members, third behind the Masons (920,459) and the Odd Fellows (939,307). The Order actually suffered some losses in this year because of an edict of the Roman Catholic Church forbidding its members from belong to certain “secret orders”, the Knights of Pythias among them. By 1902, the order had grown to 540,138.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Great stuff! What is known about the Mound City, Company "C" ? Other than the Troop "A" and Company "F", Mound City appears to be the only "lettered" one. The others are all numbered.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Earlier, when I said I was searching for a kepi (hat) button, and that they were like trying to find a needle in a haystack, what I really meant was that I wanted a picture of one "attached" to the kepi. I have seen tons of loose buttons, but it's hard to say if those are cuff buttons - coat buttons - or kepi buttons.

Anyway, not only did I find a button attached to a kepi, I also found a new kepi that will shine a little more light on the subject. The pictures below are pretty much self expanatory, with the main emphasis being that we now have "two" kepis from Massachusetts. The difference being, they have "different numbers." So what does this mean? You tell me and we will both know. But at least this will confirm that the numbers do not represent the state, but something else.

And please take a close look at the button. Now we know what one of those looks like, too.

SBB

Mass. 21 & Mass. 3

 

[allan]

each "LODGE" has a name and a number, then the ur has a number of its own . so members of lodge 222 who are in the ur may be named 111 so it doesn't seem the parent lodge has any reflection on the ur ranks but it does seem as each ur "division" is added they go in numerical order 1 is first and 2 is second etc. found this uniform and thought the collar markings interesting and I have a few more ur units to add to the list I believe.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Since a lot of the current discussion involves ranks, companies, regiments, etc., I thought it would be interesting to see what some of the later uniforms looked like. And by later, I mean the more military looking ones around the turn of the century and later. I am guesstimating the one shown here to be circa 1900/1910. I base this on how old the guy looks (30ish) who was born in 1868 and died in 1931. Here's a little more about him. His name was Charles G. E. Zetteler of Wisconsin. But I can't help but wonder about the camaraderie part.

SBB

[ Text associated with picture ][ All Mr. Zetteler needs now is one of my kepis ] Lol

Charles G. E. Zetteler in Knights of Pythias uniform.

He was a local General in the group, founded in Washington, DC after the Civil War as a fraternal order to keep alive the camaraderie of Union officers. They drilled in large encampments in Waukesha County, Wisconsin. He was employed in the Foreign Correspondence Department of the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company because of his knowledge of languages. He died of a stroke at the age of 63.

[ circa 1905 K of P uniform ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Good job! Keep it coming!

I'm sure you noticed the Illinois "22" on the collar in your last picture. One of the kepis I posted earlier is an Illinois "87."

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

~ Question of the Day ~

Question:

IF, If, if ... the top two letters on Bill_S's "Knights of Pythias" pin do in fact represent a state (as I'm sure most of us believe) is there any state other than Missouri that is abbreviated at the end with an "O"

Answer:

The only other state that is abbreviated at the end with an "O" is C.O. for Colorado.

What say you? Missouri or Colorado?

I say ...

"M.O. / Missouri / Company C"

(But don't ask me anything about the Unit ~ That's allan's department)



SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Here'a a little present for you, which was discussed in the link you posted.


"Pythian Castle ~ Missouri ~ circa 1911"

 

[allan]

http://www.skyways.org/genweb/archives/statewide/military/civilwar/adjutant/10/c.html on this link is a civil war kansas volunteers co. c , now since the ur was created after the war the pin was not worn then but...... that ur co. is a black unit, say he lived out the war and joined the kop ur and used his cw insignia letters to make his ur pin reflect his vet of the cw status ? now if a name on that link would be a name found on a kop ur list then there would be a link. yes I know, FAAAAR fetched but possible.. now we need a roll call list of the kop ur men BOB ? you have some free time?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

No way Jose! I'm okay when it comes to pictures and the basics, but detailed stuff like that is beyond me ... it makes my head hurt! Lol

But since I don't think I'm ever going to find another pin, something like that might be a good "part time" job for me.

And speaking of another pin, it also hurts my head when I think about why we have only been able to find one of them? Something ain't right about that. But I can't explain why

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

P.S. ~

To be open and honest with everyone, I'm pretty close to calling it quits on this particular thread. And here's why ...

Compare the letters/number on the W. VA. pin (which I am certain is original) and the letters on Bill_S's pin ...

They are dramatically different in my opinion. Bill_S's letters just don't look right! Especially the solid backing on the "O" Not to mention that the entire thing looks like it was sprayed with silver paint. But the "O" is the real bugger. The weird shape looks ... well, I'm not sure what. Just weird! And why do the letters have that red color when the rest of it doesn't? Too many questions, and too few answers.

And even though I just voted MO for Missouri, which I did just for the fun of it, I honestly believe that Bill_S's pin has been ...

"Altered from the original"

And as to what the letters represent, I honestly feel we will never, ever know unless an "original, unaltered" one (with third letter intact) should happen to turn up one of these days. But after searching for one during the course of at least 40 hours of internet time, I feel the odds of finding another one are slim to none. But I guess you just never know ...

"Where the rabbit will jump out next."

Sodabottlebob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

According to Mr. Occam, the simplest and most obvious answer is usually the correct answer.

~ * ~

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor), entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, is the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion, thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one. The principle is attributed to 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. Occam's razor may be alternatively phrased as pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate ("plurality should not be posited without necessity"). Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

A lot to read here. Sometimes you have gone as far as you can. Thanks to SoMdRelicHunter, the clamshell has been positively IDed as a post CW era Uniform Rank fraternal order symbol, (most likely Knights of Pythias) which we suspected. The hinge, the swords, the designs all point to early 20th century fraternal. Thanks to SBBob, we also know it is not the only pin of its kind in existence. It was amazing that he found another one.

Someone may want to write to the owner of the WVA pin to join the discussion. Im sure he would be interested in sharing research. Maybe he could send us a better picture. I dont have any other suggestions to help. Go back and MD to find the missing letter?

ADDED: I went back to correct any possible misspellings and according to our spellcheck, I misspelled "thanks" and "the". Who would have thunk it? Try it yourself.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If you google "crossed swords" WVA, you will see Bobs pin. The only suggestion I have is to google "crossed swords" pin with all the 48 states old abreviations to try and find some others. Im sure "crossed swords" MO was already tried. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_abbreviations

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

~ Question of the Day ~

Question:

IF, If, if ... the top two letters on Bill_S's "Knights of Pythias" pin do in fact represent a state (as I'm sure most of us believe) is there any state other than Missouri that is abbreviated at the end with an "O"

Answer:

The only other state that is abbreviated at the end with an "O" is C.O. for Colorado.

What say you? Missouri or Colorado?

I say ...

"M.O. / Missouri / Company C"

(But don't ask me anything about the Unit ~ That's allan's department)



SBB

Would OHIO fit?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont know if it helps any at this point but here is a pic of a pin back that has the same post CW era hinge.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Crossed-Swords-Military-Pin-/330581989980

 

[uglymailman]

This has been a fun read. Hard to remember everything to comment on & no way to remember the posters but here goes.
1. I don't think it's WW2 era military insignia. Note the safety pin type device, WW2 stuff has 2 piece pin&clasp.
2. We all know things can show up now that started out somewhere else. It doesn't have to originate in Sedalia,MO.
3.But....if it DID originate from around this area it should be noted: During the Unpleasantness Between the States, Sedalia would have seen many troop movements from both sides. I'm sure there would have a garrison of Union troops there. They occupied most of west central MO. for most of the war. I am 45 miles southwest of Sedalia and this area was occupied by troops from Iowa and Colorado. Probably others.
4. I summit the possibility the pin could read 2CO or 7CO. I don't think MO will make the spread. It also appears to me the angle of the swords in Bills pin & the WVA pin are different.
If Bill is in Booneville, the trip to Lexington is not far. Bill should take the day trip & go to the Anderson House Museum. There used to be Confederate Uniforms under glass. I'm sure they would be glad to look at his pin & compare it to any they might have.
And yes, before radio & electric lights every little burg in this part of the world had a lodge. I know of lodges of IOOF & WOW in those villages of pop. 50 or less.
Hope someone can come up w/ a definitive answer. You guys are amazing. Good luck Bill.
'

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

This has been a fun read. Hard to remember everything to comment on & no way to remember the posters but here goes.

3.But....if it DID originate from around this area it should be noted: During the Unpleasantness Between the States, Sedalia would have seen many troop movements from both sides. I'm sure there would have a garrison of Union troops there. They occupied most of west central MO. for most of the war. I am 45 miles southwest of Sedalia and this area was occupied by troops from Iowa and Colorado. Probably others.

'

Hello Bill. Yes I agree its a lot to read and confusion always happens when it goes over 2 pages. I just wanted to bring to your attention reply #133 maybe you missed it. The clamshell logo has been IDed as the UR (Uniform Rank) logo used Knight of Phythias and some other fraternal orgs. That rules out military. It also rules out CW era.

4. I summit the possibility the pin could read 2CO or 7CO. I don't think MO will make the spread. It also appears to me the angle of the swords in Bills pin & the WVA pin are different.

Good catch on the angle of the blades. They do appear a bit wider on the OPs find. It would seem that there is room for at least 3 letters. Im still wondering if OHIO would fit.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Since I may have overstayed my welcome, and before Bill_S has a chance to boot me out the door, I just wanted to say ...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Since I may have overstayed my welcome, and before Bill_S has a chance to boot me out the door,...

The WVA find was amazing. Go find us another state.