Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

[ivan salis]

confederate is a real possibilty that can not be over looked ---much of the confederate artillery officer pin / collar devices items are similar in design of that of the union ones. -- confederate ones are even more desired by collectors . -- great find either union or confederate . --

the area ---state where found and if there was any civil war action or southern troop movement thru the area ---might help in figgering out wither its is union or confederate --if its was found in a northern area where no civil war action or southern troop movements occured -- most likely a union item lost at a drill feild or such --but if found in the south - or at a area action occured at / or southern troops moved thru --it might be either one.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Absolutely no crossed-broadswords pin is shown or listed in any of the various books on civil war era US Army-issued and Confederate Army-issued insignia in my relic-reference library. Therefore, in my opinion it is not a civil-war-or-earlier US Army-issue or CS Army-issue insignia.

Additional info:
In the decades before the civil war, the US Army did issue an edged weapon known as a Short-Sword to artillerymen. Its purpose was for close-combat defense if the battery was overrun by the enemy ...but, a Short-Sword is not a Broadsword -- whose blade is much longer than a Short-Sword.

Also, issuance of short-swords to artillerymen was made useless by the late-1840s/50s arrival of multi-shot pistols on the battlefield. When somebody armed with only a sword comes up against an emeny armed with a 6-shot revolver, the sword guy always loses, and quickly. So, the armies quit wasting money on making and issuing a short-sword to soldiers. By the 1860s it had become mostly a "ceremonial usage" piece of equipment. Notably, there are a few exceptions, occurring in the feverish first months of the civil war. That being said, only a very small number of actual short-swords have been excavated from civil war battlefields.

As BigCypressHunter astutely mentioned, the construction of the pin on the back will help to date the crossed-broadswords insignia.

Regimental numbers and Company-letters (as seen on the broadsword-pin) were not included on any US Army-issued insignia until nearly a decade after the end of the civil war. (Yes, Regimental numbers and Company-lettters were issued prior to the 1870s, but they were separate items, not a part of the main insignia's body, as seen on the broadsword-pin.)

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Is there a design on the blades or is it my imagination?

 

[allan]

it almost looks like rectangles with pointed ends, and until this morning I hadn't realized the letters were part of the pin, I thought they were just laying there with it.... duh lol

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TheCannonballGuy ~

Thanks a million for your input. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm confident now, because of you familarity with this kind of stuff, that they are crossed "broadswords" and not some other type of swords. And for me that's a good place to start my research anew. Plus, I was beginning to think I was the only one who "didn't" know exactly what the item was. But I can see now that I'm not alone in that respect. Lol

SBB

 

[allan]

if he found it in missouri in boonseville there was a battle there and here is a link to units there, it may help http://home.usmo.com/~momollus/MOVOLFED.HTM#CAVALRY

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I'm just re-posting a picture of the pin so some of you won't have to keep scrolling back to look at it. It may prove helpful if you are clicking back and forth between the link that Allan posted and this picture. But this is primarily for others, because I have a printed picture of it that I refer to.

It's hard to say for certain, but the pin "appears" to have had only two numbers on the top ... suggesting the missing one may be ... 1 thru 9 ... or 10 ~ 20 ~ 30 ~ 40 ~ 50 ~ ~ 60 ~ 70 ~ 80 ~ 90

Example: 10th REGIMENT ~ COMPANY C

Of course, it could also be the letter "O" ... as in MO for Missouri.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

This picture and text is to serve as an example of where my research is leading me ...

( See the little "nubs" under the one and the zero? )

10th Unit/Regiment ~ Company H

10TH COLORED CAVALRY UNIT COMPANY H SINGLE OFFICERS COLLAR INSIGNIA: This 10th Cavalry insignia is from one of the segregated colored units.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TheCannonballGuy ~

I re-read you post several times, which is very informative. But I am still a little confused. And since you are the go-to guy at the moment, I have a question for you ...

Based on your best estimation at this juncture, what would you say the percentages are of the pin definitely being American?

100% Sure ~ 75% ~ 50% ~ etc.

It's driving me crazy that I can't find a single U.S. pin like the one in question with T-handled broadswords.

Thanks.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Not the overall design of the pin, but regarding the style of the swords themselves, the picture below is the "absolute closest" one I have found. Notice the rounded ends on the handles and the blunt tip on the blades, plus the lines on the grips. The only problem is, the overall design of the pin itself doesn't even come close to the one in question. In fact, the pin shown here is described as ...

A 1914 badge to commemorate the 10th anniversary of ...

"THE DEFENSE OF PORT ARTHUR"

... involving the Japanese attack on the Manchurian coast, China, that took place in February of 1904.

Thus, one of the reasons for my question to TheCannonballGuy as to whether he thinks the pin is U.S. or foreign?

SBB

 

[savant365]

I wonder if the missing letter could be a K for Knights of Columbus? I looked at a few of their symbols and insignia but couldn't find a match.

HH Charlie

 

[allan]

May never find another like it, a pic of the back may help to date it, I know most like the find w/ a md and to know the value, but it's the history behind an item that I enjoy. research can be fun and aggravating at times but while I recuperate it gives me something to do. a lil armchair archeology lol. I think it is more than likely U.S. but to find another example might take some time.

 

[Michellets]

I think I got it..... It's not Nai, and not cavalry, I think it's a pin for the K.of C. aka.... Knights of Columbus Maybe someone can find a pin like it from researching knights of Columbus .... I can just see the KOC... and the swords are somewhat ...knightly!

 

[ivan salis]

looking at the 10th colored cav unit civil war officers collar device above ----except for the fact that the swords are of a differant design --(calvary -saber = curved sword vs artillery -short foot sword = straight blade t type handle (no rounded guard)-- I think it strenghtens my case for a civil war era officers collar device (artillery type) company "c" lower letter with the unit ending in a "0" - like 10 , 20 and so on thru 90

oh my ---think

k (missing) O

C knights of columbus ? what does their sword hilts look like? nope ---

humm grip styling is similar to that of the french artillery short sword style in the it has a wire wrap style handle for a bettergrip during battle typical of military swords --still going with military artillery collar device

 

[ivan salis]

please look quite carefully at the oval design on the sword on the item --is the letters MA in the oval ?---military academy-- cadet sword is a straight bladed design (civil war era)

look at www.arms2armor.com

look under indentifaction help --scroll down to us swords

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Am I the only person that sees a design on both blades?

 

[trikikiwi]

Am I the only person that sees a design on both blades?

No.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

A blade with a design makes me think ceremonial or fraternal.

 

[allan]

I see the blade design also, on the left hilt it looks like letters or numbers and on the right it looks almost like a greek face , thats zoomed to 400 % . I have seen similar designed items dated back to 1832 I think is the oldest one but the swords are just not the same as these on any of them. I see no MA anywhere.the design on the blade looks familiar also possible greek or roman ?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I see what appears to be a design on the blades. Plus it looks like it was originally plated a silver color. I wonder why the "O" has a solid chunk of rust in it? Shouldn't it be hollow?

SBB

P.S. In answer to my own question, I now think the back side of the "O" is where the pin clasp is located.