Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

SodaBottleBob wrote:
> Based on your best estimation at this juncture, what would you say the percentages are of the pin definitely being American?
> 100% Sure ~ 75% ~ 50% ~ etc.
> It's driving me crazy that I can't find a single U.S. pin like the one in question with T-handled broadswords.

The broadswords on the pin are not merely T-handled. Notice the large raised oval at the center of the swords' crossguard. The oval shape there what is called a "clamshell guard." (Google the term to learn more.) Several people in this discussion have suggested the swords are Artillery short-swords ...but absolutely no artillery short-swords have a clamshell guard.

There are a few American swords which have a clamshell guard ...most notably, the US Army Model-1840 NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) sword. It does have a straight blade, but it's a very narrow blade ...totally unlike a broadsword (whose blade is quite wide, as the name indicates).

So, because the swords on the pin are broadswords with a clamshell guard, a form of sword that was popular in Europe but not in America, my answer to your question is that the pin is definitely not US Army Regular Issue ...and definitely not Confederate ...but there's a small possibility (less than 25%) that it was for a post-civil-war State Militia unit (such as, a New York National Guard unit). But, due to the broadswords with clamshell guard on the crossguard, I have to assume is "most probably" European.

By the way... some Nazi daggers have a small-ish clamshell guard on their crossguard.

To help the forum's readers recognize the clamshell guard on the pin broadswords' crossguard, here's the pin photo and two photos showing swords with a clamshell guard on the side of the crossguard. (I found some photos showing the clamshell guard on a US Army M-1840 NCO sword, but those photos are copy-protected, so you'll have to do a google-search to see them.)

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

Super Duper! Thanks. I'm up to speed and running full steam again.

SBB

 

[allan]

here are some similar ones lol , I am leaning toward militia or military academy more than likely cw era, but I want to know the what not the when really bad....

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

One clue leads to another ...

Brass cap badge of the British Infantry Training Battalion
Crossed Swords ~ Kings crown
Motto reads ~ Deus Vult ~ God wills

Nowadays I'm looking for anything and everything with a clamshell guard.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

One clue leads to another ...

British Army Proficiency Badges

9A

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

SodaBottleBob, I've been doing some online research for you, on Military crossed-swords insignia pins. None of that type that I've been able to find so far which are European have a Regiment-number & Company-letter attached to them. So far, only American ones from the Indian Wars era (and later). So, although I'm 100%-certain that the crossed-broadswords pin isn't Confederate Army Issue or US Regular Army Issue, you might want to check for State Militia and State National Guard unit insignia (which I previously mentioned as a small possibility). Although the crossed-broadswords (with clamshell-guard) emblem is European in origin, I've found that many 20th-century US Army and National Guard units' "coat-of-arms" include antique European military iconograhy ...such as a knight's-helmet, a rampant lion, etc.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

Yeah, I discovered the same thing about the lack of letters and numbers on the European insignias. So I am switching gears again with that in mind. But wherever it originated from, it definitely appears to be uncommon. Otherwise they would be popping up left and right. The search continues!

Thanks.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

P.S. ~

But even without using specific search terms like ...

Military ~ Militia ~ Guard ~ Civil War ~ Army ~ Navy ~ etc; etc.

You would think that a more simplified ...

"Crossed Swords Insignia"

... would produce at least one. But it doesn't! And I have looked at hundreds of them from every country worldwide. There have been lots of "close encounters," but no exact matches.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

Another question ...

Based on your knowledge ~ Library ~ Opinion ...

Would you say the top digit is a "Zero" or an "O" ?

The reason I ask is because most of the zeros I have seen are more oval shaped. If it can be confirmed one way or another to be either a zero or an "O," then it could change things, especially if it's an "O." By the way, I have already searched "Knights Of Columbus" (K.O.C.) until I was blue in the face, but no match! (But this isn't to say it's not "Knight Of Columbus," because it still could be). More and more I'm leaning toward "Fraternal."

0 vs O

Thanks.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

We need you Bill. We have some questions. I have seen this happen before. The OP posts a pic of the back. The markings are googled and its solved in a minute lol.

 

[diggummup]

I've been watching this thread and researching high and low to no avail. I think it's an O and a C not a zero.

Personally i'd just like to see Bill_S respond to his own thread as to the backmarks (if any) and maybe a photo of the back.

 

[Patriot474]

One clue is where is this park at and at what state?

that might give a clue to.

 

[ivan salis]

well the items it was found with lead bullets are of the civil war eraish type .

state and city might help somewhat --back pic could really help (maybe)

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Could the round balls be older?

 

[diggummup]

I pm'd Bill so we may find out some additional info. whenever he gets the message.
Until then...Hasta La Vista

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

please look quite carefully at the oval design on the sword on the item --is the letters MA in the oval ?---military academy-- cadet sword is a straight bladed design (civil war era)

look at www.arms2armor.com

look under indentifaction help --scroll down to us swords

I would like to look Ivan but can you explain this again? Are you referring to "Arms and Armor Identification Help"? I cannot find "us swords."

The link of the home page posted fine Ivan but its best to click on the page you want on US swords and then copy and paste the url.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's a list of fraternal-type organizations that might apply ... (If it's an "O"). ? ?

AOC: American Order of Clansmen

DOC: Daughters of Columbia

DOC: Daughters of Confederacy

FOC: Fraternal Order of Colonials

KOC: Knights of Columbus

MOC: Military Order of the Cootie

MOC: Modern Order of Chaldean

OOC: Order of Calanthe

ROC: Russian Orthodox Catholic

 

[Patriot474]

also curious to know what that rusted ball is.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

There may be a German manufacturers mark on the backside lol. Im not wasting anymore time with this thread until its properly posted. (pic front and back standard procedure) Been there, done that. Sometimes its an unnecessary waste of effort.

The OP probably didnt realize his thread would attract so much attention but he should have checked back by now.

 

[allan]

I read his older posts , I believe it is from Boonsville MO . I hope he replies before we all go crazy lol