Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.
Help with ID on military looking pin
- Thread starter Bill_S
- Start date
SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
allan and everyone concerned ...
I did the best I could with researching the crossed sabers kepi as well as the High Officers individual sabers that the kepi emblem seems to represent. About all I was able to come up with is that both the kepi and the sabers are considered very rare. It also appears that both are very early items, (late 1860s to early 1880s) when the Knights of Pythias was somewhat in it's infancy. Mainly I was looking for clues that might lead to the identification of both of the crossed swords pins. I didn't find much, but I did come up with two more manufacturers of Knights of Pythias swords and regalia. The new names are ...
1. The E.A. Armstrong Company ~ Detroit, Michigan
2. D. Kliein & Brother ~ Philidelphia, PA.
( I added these names to the list I started earlier on post #381 ).
After finding the crossed sabers kepi, I was afraid I was going to have to go back and look at the hundreds of Civil War crossed sabers pins that I discounted earlier, thinking that one of them might be a Knights of Pythias pin with a makers mark on it. But I am convinced now that that won't be necessary. I may be wrong, but I really don't believe there are any Knights of Pythias crossed "sabers" pins. If there are, I'm sure they will be almost impossible to find and be able to distinguish from the numerous Civil War varieties.
Anyway, the search continues for the original pins.
allan ~ Please let us know if you ever do find another explaination for the officer's kepi and sword. Especially if you narrow down some specific dates. Thanks.
Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, the picture below (which was described as a group of officers only) shows a number of the "sabers" I have been talking about. You can just make out the curved part of the handle knuckle guards. If anyone can make out any crossed saber emblems on their kepis, then we will have to start calling you ...
"Eagle Eyes."
SBB
I did the best I could with researching the crossed sabers kepi as well as the High Officers individual sabers that the kepi emblem seems to represent. About all I was able to come up with is that both the kepi and the sabers are considered very rare. It also appears that both are very early items, (late 1860s to early 1880s) when the Knights of Pythias was somewhat in it's infancy. Mainly I was looking for clues that might lead to the identification of both of the crossed swords pins. I didn't find much, but I did come up with two more manufacturers of Knights of Pythias swords and regalia. The new names are ...
1. The E.A. Armstrong Company ~ Detroit, Michigan
2. D. Kliein & Brother ~ Philidelphia, PA.
( I added these names to the list I started earlier on post #381 ).
After finding the crossed sabers kepi, I was afraid I was going to have to go back and look at the hundreds of Civil War crossed sabers pins that I discounted earlier, thinking that one of them might be a Knights of Pythias pin with a makers mark on it. But I am convinced now that that won't be necessary. I may be wrong, but I really don't believe there are any Knights of Pythias crossed "sabers" pins. If there are, I'm sure they will be almost impossible to find and be able to distinguish from the numerous Civil War varieties.
Anyway, the search continues for the original pins.
allan ~ Please let us know if you ever do find another explaination for the officer's kepi and sword. Especially if you narrow down some specific dates. Thanks.
Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, the picture below (which was described as a group of officers only) shows a number of the "sabers" I have been talking about. You can just make out the curved part of the handle knuckle guards. If anyone can make out any crossed saber emblems on their kepis, then we will have to start calling you ...
"Eagle Eyes."
SBB
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
P.S. ~
In case I failed to mention this before, a lot of the items I have found pictures of were not described as "Knights of Pythias." Many of them were simply described as "Fraternal" ~ "Masonic" ~ "Post Civil War" ~ "Unknown" ~ "Unidentified" ~ etc; etc. Most people really don't know the difference between one organization and another, and apparently don't do the neccessary research to find out. If another pin like Bill_S's or the W. VA. pin are ever found, I expect they will be described as "unknown origin."
Good luck!
Bob
{ I believe there is a difference between "High" officer and regular officer }
In case I failed to mention this before, a lot of the items I have found pictures of were not described as "Knights of Pythias." Many of them were simply described as "Fraternal" ~ "Masonic" ~ "Post Civil War" ~ "Unknown" ~ "Unidentified" ~ etc; etc. Most people really don't know the difference between one organization and another, and apparently don't do the neccessary research to find out. If another pin like Bill_S's or the W. VA. pin are ever found, I expect they will be described as "unknown origin."
Good luck!
Bob
{ I believe there is a difference between "High" officer and regular officer }
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allan
Hero Member
What do you mean link between crossed sabers and kepi ? it can be from one of the uniformed ranks that existed before the "official" ranks were formed, The The use of a sword was part and parcel from the beginning of the KOP , Remember most of the early KOP members were ex civil war veteren's from both sides. The use of the short sword to hold the page of a bible is part of the rituals. Also could be possible that certain chapters chose there own Kepi style.Hate to speculate on items in this thread, if they do not directly correspond with the pins themselves as it kinda clouds the waters.If we can find some of those catalogs we may find that the kepi's could be ordered with all kinds of options. And try researching the KOP lodges in the states where the kepi's come from and you may find cavalry type units. most objects in the Kop hold some type of ritual meaning. If my theory on the pin's is correct then the pins were used for a short period of time1884 to 1890 or maybe just 1888 to 1890 and since they appear close, if not exact, in design and they were found hundreds of miles apart it leans to a manufacturer with a catalog.or it could mean a jeweler from wva transfered to MO and made few few for his new group just like he did for his old unit .one of the reasons for the UR forming the us military style drill code was due to that at parades and encampments etc. there would be a wide range of uniforms and colors and designs and gave the appearance of a rag tag group.not that of a well trained group.also the KOP had outfits for the regular meetings and rituals "like michellets"and a uniform.From 1864 to the 1950's they went through quite a few changes due to membership ups and downs and absorbtion of some small lodge's into larger ones.also the some trained with other groups as some members could be state guard/militia and also belong to other masonic groups. I have also seen where they drilled with other groups. and last but not least we have the segregated lodges which formed when people realized that since they were not white they could not join, so in actuality there were two KOP's with 2 UR groups. if after the ruling in 1912 supreme court ruling they all got along nicely and everything was peachy I am not sure, but doubt.Did certain companies refuse to sell to the Negro lodges? these were troubled times and anything is possible.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
allan ~
I know what you mean by clouded waters. My brain has been foggy on a number of things for the past two weeks. There are just so many questions and so few answers. For example; my number one question at the moment is what does the number 30 stand for on the West Virginia pin? Presently, despite the few references to a Lodge number 30 in Wheeling, I am fairly confident now that it's actually a Uniform Rank ...
"Company Number"
But this is where the "clouded" part kicks in again. Despite of my so called confidence regarding this, I'm still guessing and speculating about what the number 30 stands for. This may seem trivial to some, but to me it is a major factor. Which in turn brings me full circle to the kepis, as well as the convention/memorium type of ribbons and pins. The kepis and the ribbons are just about the only two items I am presently aware of that consistantly display numbers. However, the ribbons clearly indicate "Lodge" numbers, but the kepis are still in question. Like you, I don't like to speculate.
Thus, my ongoing search related to those numbers involves trying to find a bona fide connection between the W. VA. pin ~ the kepis ~ and the ribbons. Once "proof" is established as to what the number 30 stands for, then I can scratch it off my list and move on to finding proof as to "who" actually wore the crossed swords pins.
Regarding the so called high officers/crossed sabers kepi, did you notice it does not have a number? (Unless that's a number under the sabers that I can't make out). Of the appoximately thirty pictures I now have of Knights of Pythias kepis, the crossed saber example is the "only" one that does not display a number. I wonder why this is?
To summarize things, following is what I call the "Do Knows" and "Don't Knows." And only when the "Don't Knows" are eliminated do I feel this mystery will ever be fully solved.
( The list does not take guesswork/speculation into account ).
"Do Know"
1. Both pins are Knights of Pythias related.
2. Both pins have a Lily ~ UR ~ KP.
3. Both pins have different letters/number.
4. Both pins are the same in many respects.
5. The W. VA. stands for West Virginia.
"Don't Know"
1. Who among the Knights of Pythias the pins were used by.
2. What specific purpose the pins were intended for.
3. What the missing letter is, nor what the "O" and "C" stand for.
4. What the number 30 stands for.
There may be a few things I missed, but these are the "basics."
Thanks again to everyone for hanging in there
Bob
I know what you mean by clouded waters. My brain has been foggy on a number of things for the past two weeks. There are just so many questions and so few answers. For example; my number one question at the moment is what does the number 30 stand for on the West Virginia pin? Presently, despite the few references to a Lodge number 30 in Wheeling, I am fairly confident now that it's actually a Uniform Rank ...
"Company Number"
But this is where the "clouded" part kicks in again. Despite of my so called confidence regarding this, I'm still guessing and speculating about what the number 30 stands for. This may seem trivial to some, but to me it is a major factor. Which in turn brings me full circle to the kepis, as well as the convention/memorium type of ribbons and pins. The kepis and the ribbons are just about the only two items I am presently aware of that consistantly display numbers. However, the ribbons clearly indicate "Lodge" numbers, but the kepis are still in question. Like you, I don't like to speculate.
Thus, my ongoing search related to those numbers involves trying to find a bona fide connection between the W. VA. pin ~ the kepis ~ and the ribbons. Once "proof" is established as to what the number 30 stands for, then I can scratch it off my list and move on to finding proof as to "who" actually wore the crossed swords pins.
Regarding the so called high officers/crossed sabers kepi, did you notice it does not have a number? (Unless that's a number under the sabers that I can't make out). Of the appoximately thirty pictures I now have of Knights of Pythias kepis, the crossed saber example is the "only" one that does not display a number. I wonder why this is?
To summarize things, following is what I call the "Do Knows" and "Don't Knows." And only when the "Don't Knows" are eliminated do I feel this mystery will ever be fully solved.
( The list does not take guesswork/speculation into account ).
"Do Know"
1. Both pins are Knights of Pythias related.
2. Both pins have a Lily ~ UR ~ KP.
3. Both pins have different letters/number.
4. Both pins are the same in many respects.
5. The W. VA. stands for West Virginia.
"Don't Know"
1. Who among the Knights of Pythias the pins were used by.
2. What specific purpose the pins were intended for.
3. What the missing letter is, nor what the "O" and "C" stand for.
4. What the number 30 stands for.
There may be a few things I missed, but these are the "basics."
Thanks again to everyone for hanging in there
Bob
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
~ Current Knights of Pythias Kepis ~
( Which I strongly suspect display "Company numbers" )
(So far I have not found a ribbon Lodge number that matches a same state Kepi number)
Total = 26
1. Illinois # 21 ~ #47
2. Indiana #22 ~ #82 ~ #104
3. Kansas #38
4. Kentucky #1 ~ #10
5. Maine #13 ~ #22 ~ #26
6. Massachusetts #21 ~ #3
7. Michigan #23 ~ #62
8. Missouri #46
9. Nebraska #23
10. New Hampshire #13 ~ #22
11. Ohio #38 ~ #41 ~ #65 ~ #101
12. Pennsylvania #5
13. Tennessee #39
14. Washington state #3
Makers of Knights of Pythias Kepis. (And other regalia).
1. Cincinnati Regalia Co ~ Ohio
2. Pettibone Mfg. ~ Cincinnati, Ohio
3. M.C. Lilley Co. ~ Columbus, Ohio
4. Joseph Mayer & Brothers
5. Schwaab S&S Company ~ Milwaukee, Wisconsin
( Which I strongly suspect display "Company numbers" )
(So far I have not found a ribbon Lodge number that matches a same state Kepi number)
Total = 26
1. Illinois # 21 ~ #47
2. Indiana #22 ~ #82 ~ #104
3. Kansas #38
4. Kentucky #1 ~ #10
5. Maine #13 ~ #22 ~ #26
6. Massachusetts #21 ~ #3
7. Michigan #23 ~ #62
8. Missouri #46
9. Nebraska #23
10. New Hampshire #13 ~ #22
11. Ohio #38 ~ #41 ~ #65 ~ #101
12. Pennsylvania #5
13. Tennessee #39
14. Washington state #3
Makers of Knights of Pythias Kepis. (And other regalia).
1. Cincinnati Regalia Co ~ Ohio
2. Pettibone Mfg. ~ Cincinnati, Ohio
3. M.C. Lilley Co. ~ Columbus, Ohio
4. Joseph Mayer & Brothers
5. Schwaab S&S Company ~ Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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allan
Hero Member
I see now what the confusion is and it s understandable, if you look at the list of UR you will see some are company, brigade ,division, and lodge and cavalry.
Damon Division, No.6
Future Great Company, No.5
Headquarters, 2d Regiment
Missouri Brigade Uniform Rank
wiki definition
A division is a large military unit or formation usually consisting of between 10,000 and 15,000 soldiers. In most armies, a division is composed of several regiments or brigades, and in turn several divisions make up a corps. In most modern militaries, a division tends to be the smallest combined arms unit capable of independent operations; due to its self-sustaining role as a unit with a range of combat troops and suitable combat support forces, which can be divided into various organic combinations.
so what I am saying is that KOP lodge 30 , may have a company of cavalry belonging to the headquarters 2nd regiment and also have a company of another name or number within the regiment .and during the ups and downs of KOP I know some " units" were absorbed into other groups, now the past sentence I made up the names but one real instance is the wva 30 group, I have seen them listed as under the ohio valley chapters , but they may also have been in a previous group. thats where it gets a little crazy and with the limited info available it would be a daunting task to find out who went where and when.
for example lol , this is a KOp lodge responce to an email I sent, first he told me most swords are worth about 150 $ , then I resent it with a better description of the pins and told him I didnt really care about value's of said items just the history and if he had ever heard or seen the pins. here is his response
The "Black" Knights of Pythias were a very strong and viable fraternity, with the ritual and ceremonies very similar to the other Knights o Pythias. We are nor aware that they had a Uniform Rank. We have lost contact with them. The pins in question could have come from either group.
Sooooooooooooooo lol , who does know ? The lack of information is frustrating to say the least. Also this guy may not really care but was just answering to the best of his FCB ethic's. Keep smilng guys and be thankful it isn't a matter of life or death. supreme knights of pythias or knights of pythias I wish there was a way to sort through them both but there isn't yet that I have found.And one hint they may help you Bob is last one on your list is washington state #3 so it was the third built in the state more than likely.
Damon Division, No.6
Future Great Company, No.5
Headquarters, 2d Regiment
Missouri Brigade Uniform Rank
wiki definition
A division is a large military unit or formation usually consisting of between 10,000 and 15,000 soldiers. In most armies, a division is composed of several regiments or brigades, and in turn several divisions make up a corps. In most modern militaries, a division tends to be the smallest combined arms unit capable of independent operations; due to its self-sustaining role as a unit with a range of combat troops and suitable combat support forces, which can be divided into various organic combinations.
so what I am saying is that KOP lodge 30 , may have a company of cavalry belonging to the headquarters 2nd regiment and also have a company of another name or number within the regiment .and during the ups and downs of KOP I know some " units" were absorbed into other groups, now the past sentence I made up the names but one real instance is the wva 30 group, I have seen them listed as under the ohio valley chapters , but they may also have been in a previous group. thats where it gets a little crazy and with the limited info available it would be a daunting task to find out who went where and when.
for example lol , this is a KOp lodge responce to an email I sent, first he told me most swords are worth about 150 $ , then I resent it with a better description of the pins and told him I didnt really care about value's of said items just the history and if he had ever heard or seen the pins. here is his response
The "Black" Knights of Pythias were a very strong and viable fraternity, with the ritual and ceremonies very similar to the other Knights o Pythias. We are nor aware that they had a Uniform Rank. We have lost contact with them. The pins in question could have come from either group.
Sooooooooooooooo lol , who does know ? The lack of information is frustrating to say the least. Also this guy may not really care but was just answering to the best of his FCB ethic's. Keep smilng guys and be thankful it isn't a matter of life or death. supreme knights of pythias or knights of pythias I wish there was a way to sort through them both but there isn't yet that I have found.And one hint they may help you Bob is last one on your list is washington state #3 so it was the third built in the state more than likely.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
allan ~
I ditto the crazy part! I'm just a simple bodunk trying to sift through a mountain of confusing information. If I understand your definitions correctly, I seriously doubt that any one state had more than several hundred Uniform Rank members irregardless of whether they were referred to as companies ~ regiments ~ units ~ divisions, etc., especially back in the teens. In that (page turning) book you posted there are some interesting charts we should take another look at which, I believe, are toward the end of the book somewhere in the 400 pages.
In the meantime, I found the following I thought was interesting. Rarely have I found this type of information where both a lodge number and a company number are mentioned in the same sentence. But they are both used here ...
(This pertains to a Mr. Charles H. Browne of Horton, Kansas. As near as I can determine it was written while he was still an active member of the Knights of Pythias, and dates to circa 1917).
Copy/Pasted
He also belongs to Horton Lodge No. 165, Knights of Pythias, Horton Company No. 36 of the Uniform Rank Knights of Pythias.
~ * ~
I plan to search for both a Kepi and Ribbon for Horton, Kansas and see what I can find.
My current opinion is that the West Virginia pin stands for "Company No.30"
Bob
I ditto the crazy part! I'm just a simple bodunk trying to sift through a mountain of confusing information. If I understand your definitions correctly, I seriously doubt that any one state had more than several hundred Uniform Rank members irregardless of whether they were referred to as companies ~ regiments ~ units ~ divisions, etc., especially back in the teens. In that (page turning) book you posted there are some interesting charts we should take another look at which, I believe, are toward the end of the book somewhere in the 400 pages.
In the meantime, I found the following I thought was interesting. Rarely have I found this type of information where both a lodge number and a company number are mentioned in the same sentence. But they are both used here ...
(This pertains to a Mr. Charles H. Browne of Horton, Kansas. As near as I can determine it was written while he was still an active member of the Knights of Pythias, and dates to circa 1917).
Copy/Pasted
He also belongs to Horton Lodge No. 165, Knights of Pythias, Horton Company No. 36 of the Uniform Rank Knights of Pythias.
~ * ~
I plan to search for both a Kepi and Ribbon for Horton, Kansas and see what I can find.
My current opinion is that the West Virginia pin stands for "Company No.30"
Bob
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
This is part of my ongoing research to help support my theory that the "30" on the West Virginia pin represents a "Company" number. If I can confirm that the "30" is in fact a Company number, then I will consider it a major step in the direction of identifying that particular pin.
The following is taken from a Kansas historical document and discusses the Knights of Pythias involvement in that state. Please be reminded when reading it that the Mr. Charles H. Browne I spoke of in my previous post was a member of Lodge No. 165. The article below mentions a count of 168 different Lodges in Kansas in 1911.
(The main emphasis here is with my belief that the "30" is a Company designation. In this posting and the previous four post, I am merely attempting to logically illustrate the difference between Lodge numbers and Company numbers.)
~ * ~
The panic of 1873 and internal dissensions caused a slow growth for the first few years, and when the grand lodge met in its fourth annual session at Olathe, Kansas in 1875 it owed about $1,000, the treasury was empty, and there were less than 400 members in good standing in the state. But the founders of the order in Kansas had faith in its principles and went to work with energy and determination to place it on a firm foundation. That they succeeded may be seen in the report of the grand lodge at the session held in Leavenworth in May, 1911, when there were 10,855 members and 168 subordinate lodges in the state that year.
The following is taken from a Kansas historical document and discusses the Knights of Pythias involvement in that state. Please be reminded when reading it that the Mr. Charles H. Browne I spoke of in my previous post was a member of Lodge No. 165. The article below mentions a count of 168 different Lodges in Kansas in 1911.
(The main emphasis here is with my belief that the "30" is a Company designation. In this posting and the previous four post, I am merely attempting to logically illustrate the difference between Lodge numbers and Company numbers.)
~ * ~
The panic of 1873 and internal dissensions caused a slow growth for the first few years, and when the grand lodge met in its fourth annual session at Olathe, Kansas in 1875 it owed about $1,000, the treasury was empty, and there were less than 400 members in good standing in the state. But the founders of the order in Kansas had faith in its principles and went to work with energy and determination to place it on a firm foundation. That they succeeded may be seen in the report of the grand lodge at the session held in Leavenworth in May, 1911, when there were 10,855 members and 168 subordinate lodges in the state that year.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Although not entirely confirmed, my current opinion regarding this pin is as follows ...
1. Knights of Pythias
2. Crossed Swords marked with Lily/UR/KP
3. West Virginia
4. Uniform Rank
5. Memoriam Pin
6. Company No. 30
{ City ~ Lodge ~ Date = Unknown }
[ Circa late 1800s early 1900s ]
1. Knights of Pythias
2. Crossed Swords marked with Lily/UR/KP
3. West Virginia
4. Uniform Rank
5. Memoriam Pin
6. Company No. 30
{ City ~ Lodge ~ Date = Unknown }
[ Circa late 1800s early 1900s ]
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Bill_S
In case you haven't noticed it yet, I changed my "opinion" regarding both yours and the West Virginia crossed swords pin. This is based on some additional research I did in my attempt to determine exactly what the crossed swords represented. I also discovered that the typical Uniform Ranks symbol is a "Triangle." I now believe the crossed swords represent ...
"Memoriam / Death"
(And may have had a ribbon)
The following includes part of the reason for changing my opinion ...
~ Reference to Knights of Pythias Crossed Swords Symbolism ~
http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/pythias_en.html
On two trestles, twelve inches high, covered by a black pall reaching to the floor shall be placed an open coffin which shall contain a skeleton. On the coffin shall be two crossed swords, with the hilts towards the Prelate, and on these the open book of law. This is the usual sort of symbolism for death and resurrection and, again in typical Masonic fashion, the candidate is blindfolded for part of the ceremony.
~ * ~
~ Uniform Rank Ritual ~
1. Reference to Company "Number"
2. Reference to "Single Triangle"
http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/pythias-ur_r.html
1. This is a regular (or special) Assembly of … Company No. … of … for the transaction of such business as may legally be brought before it. Officers, repair to your stations; Knights Loyal, be seated.
2. Captain: Attention! Herald, what is the first symbol of the Military Rank of Pythian Knighthood, and what does it signify?
Herald, turns toward the Captain, salutes, and says: Captain, the symbol is the single triangle, and signifies that the honor of a Knight Loyal should be as untarnished as was that of Damon, who preferred to lose his life, rather than violate his pledge to Pythias.
~ * ~
I reserve the right to change my opinon again should further research dictate it.
Thanks
Bob
~ * ~
[ Official "Blindfold/Goggles" used in Knights of Pythias rituals ]
In case you haven't noticed it yet, I changed my "opinion" regarding both yours and the West Virginia crossed swords pin. This is based on some additional research I did in my attempt to determine exactly what the crossed swords represented. I also discovered that the typical Uniform Ranks symbol is a "Triangle." I now believe the crossed swords represent ...
"Memoriam / Death"
(And may have had a ribbon)
The following includes part of the reason for changing my opinion ...
~ Reference to Knights of Pythias Crossed Swords Symbolism ~
http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/pythias_en.html
On two trestles, twelve inches high, covered by a black pall reaching to the floor shall be placed an open coffin which shall contain a skeleton. On the coffin shall be two crossed swords, with the hilts towards the Prelate, and on these the open book of law. This is the usual sort of symbolism for death and resurrection and, again in typical Masonic fashion, the candidate is blindfolded for part of the ceremony.
~ * ~
~ Uniform Rank Ritual ~
1. Reference to Company "Number"
2. Reference to "Single Triangle"
http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/pythias-ur_r.html
1. This is a regular (or special) Assembly of … Company No. … of … for the transaction of such business as may legally be brought before it. Officers, repair to your stations; Knights Loyal, be seated.
2. Captain: Attention! Herald, what is the first symbol of the Military Rank of Pythian Knighthood, and what does it signify?
Herald, turns toward the Captain, salutes, and says: Captain, the symbol is the single triangle, and signifies that the honor of a Knight Loyal should be as untarnished as was that of Damon, who preferred to lose his life, rather than violate his pledge to Pythias.
~ * ~
I reserve the right to change my opinon again should further research dictate it.
Thanks
Bob
~ * ~
[ Official "Blindfold/Goggles" used in Knights of Pythias rituals ]
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
In the second link I posted above it talks about Uniform Rank "Single" and "Double" triangles. Well, I just now discovered that the symbol on a typical KOP belt buckle is a "Double Triangle." I also realize now that the stitched emblems on the Kipis are also "Double Triangles." This entire time I was unaware of this. But now it clearly indicates to me that these double triangles represent a "Second Level Degree" in the Uniform Ranks. This came about while I was searching for a Uniform Rank "single triangle" pin. I'm still not sure which one it is of the numerous triangle pins. If you are aware of a "for-sure" Uniform Rank single-triangle pin, please share it with us.
Note: In case you're wondering where I'm going with this, it is try and establish that the standard symbols for the Uniform Ranks were "triangles" and not "crossed swords." Which in turn may explain why we see so many triangles and no crossed swords on the uniforms. If the pins do turn out to be memoriam related, this may explain their rarity. I'm just doing my best here and hope you will forgive my going in so many different directions. I'm hoping this trail will eventually lead to a positive identification.
Thanks
Bob
Captain: "Worthy Chaplain, what is the second lesson taught in this Military Rank of Pythian Knighthood, and under what symbol?"
Chaplain: "We are taught equal and exact justice to all men, and for all men, rich and poor alike. The symbol is the double triangle, and signifies that Honor and Justice are united for our defense and protection."
[ Double Triangle Buckle ~ Uniform Rank ]
Note: In case you're wondering where I'm going with this, it is try and establish that the standard symbols for the Uniform Ranks were "triangles" and not "crossed swords." Which in turn may explain why we see so many triangles and no crossed swords on the uniforms. If the pins do turn out to be memoriam related, this may explain their rarity. I'm just doing my best here and hope you will forgive my going in so many different directions. I'm hoping this trail will eventually lead to a positive identification.
Thanks
Bob
Captain: "Worthy Chaplain, what is the second lesson taught in this Military Rank of Pythian Knighthood, and under what symbol?"
Chaplain: "We are taught equal and exact justice to all men, and for all men, rich and poor alike. The symbol is the double triangle, and signifies that Honor and Justice are united for our defense and protection."
[ Double Triangle Buckle ~ Uniform Rank ]
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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Bill_S
I plan to continue my research, but have decided to refrain from posting until a more definite identification for your pin can be found. I'm not sure how many others are still involved in this, but hopefully someone will come up with something eventually. I have presented my personal observations and clues as best I could.
I am still of the opinion that both pins are memoriam related - currently nothing else makes sense to me. There has to be an explanation for their rareity. But saying this and proving it are two entirely different things. It's still hard to believe that no pictures of that particular type of pin appear in any of the hundreds of old Knights of Pythias photographs we have looked at.
So unless someone finds something substantial before I do, the next time you hear from me will likely be with something "proof positive." In the meantime I leave you with the following pictures ... which are my current favorites because they all include ...
~ A Bible and a Sword ~
Thanks again
Bob
I plan to continue my research, but have decided to refrain from posting until a more definite identification for your pin can be found. I'm not sure how many others are still involved in this, but hopefully someone will come up with something eventually. I have presented my personal observations and clues as best I could.
I am still of the opinion that both pins are memoriam related - currently nothing else makes sense to me. There has to be an explanation for their rareity. But saying this and proving it are two entirely different things. It's still hard to believe that no pictures of that particular type of pin appear in any of the hundreds of old Knights of Pythias photographs we have looked at.
So unless someone finds something substantial before I do, the next time you hear from me will likely be with something "proof positive." In the meantime I leave you with the following pictures ... which are my current favorites because they all include ...
~ A Bible and a Sword ~
Thanks again
Bob
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
ffuries said:Regarding the other pin, the poster on the other forum was not the finder, his buddy was, and the pin has since been sold, so he has no additional information on it. Well that took us to a dead end.
Hopefully someone on this forum will come up with the final answer, as they usually do!
Mike
USAF Retired
Mike ~
I thought it would interest you to know that about an hour ago I finally got "approved" to post on that Militaria website. It took them an entire five days! I still don't know why it took so long and what the big deal was, because all they asked for were the basics like an e-mail address.
Anyway, while I'm here I thought I would post a quick picture of two more mystery pins I found. Neither one was identified. The research I did convinced me they are likely "not" Knights Templar. Especially the saber looking one on the right with the rounded knuckle guards. But whether either one is a Knights of Pythias or not, I really don't know ... but it's possible. The clown pins and those other two just happened to be in the photo along with the triangle ones.
SBB
[ Two More Mystery Sword Pins ] (Especially the one on the right)
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
{{{ NOTICE }}}
I just got my hands on an original 1886 copy of a Knights of Pythias book. There is a picture and reference to the crossed-swords symbol. I should have it fully researched and scanned within the next couple of hours, and hopefully with a ...
"Positive Identification"
Note: I realize I should have done this already, but I was so excited that I couldn't wait to post this advance notice. Keep your fingers crossed!
Thanks.
Bob
I just got my hands on an original 1886 copy of a Knights of Pythias book. There is a picture and reference to the crossed-swords symbol. I should have it fully researched and scanned within the next couple of hours, and hopefully with a ...
"Positive Identification"
Note: I realize I should have done this already, but I was so excited that I couldn't wait to post this advance notice. Keep your fingers crossed!
Thanks.
Bob
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
~ PARTIAL IDENDIFICATION ~
According to the book ...
"Knights of Pythias Complete Manual and Text-Book"
Copyrighted 1886 - By Memento Publishing Co. ~ Canton, Ohio
"INNER GUARD"
Crossed Swords represent two positions within the Inner Guard ranks
1. Supreme Inner Guard
2. Regular Inner Guard
There is also what is referred to as "Outer Guards" ~ But those symbols are different, and are of "Single" Swords. "Master at Arms" are also different and not to be confused with "Guards."
I still need to do some additional research within the 502 page book to see if I can determine which of the two Guards the pin(s) in question represent. But according to the book I feel this to be an accurate definition as to what the basic crossed-swords symbols represent. The book also contains numerous other symbol identifications, but I will leave that for another time.
The pictures and text should be self explanatory.
Note the "Circle" vs. the "Triangle" designations.
I'll be back with more at a later date.
(I am also going to try and determine exactly what the "30" represents)
Sodabottlebob
According to the book ...
"Knights of Pythias Complete Manual and Text-Book"
Copyrighted 1886 - By Memento Publishing Co. ~ Canton, Ohio
"INNER GUARD"
Crossed Swords represent two positions within the Inner Guard ranks
1. Supreme Inner Guard
2. Regular Inner Guard
There is also what is referred to as "Outer Guards" ~ But those symbols are different, and are of "Single" Swords. "Master at Arms" are also different and not to be confused with "Guards."
I still need to do some additional research within the 502 page book to see if I can determine which of the two Guards the pin(s) in question represent. But according to the book I feel this to be an accurate definition as to what the basic crossed-swords symbols represent. The book also contains numerous other symbol identifications, but I will leave that for another time.
The pictures and text should be self explanatory.
Note the "Circle" vs. the "Triangle" designations.
I'll be back with more at a later date.
(I am also going to try and determine exactly what the "30" represents)
Sodabottlebob
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