Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.
Help with ID on military looking pin
- Thread starter Bill_S
- Start date
SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
The seller helped me out by posting this picture from the catalog.
It shows a ...
Crossed-Swords "Shoulder Board / Patch"
Connecticut
11
Regulation Rank Insignia For Service Uniforms
Full Dress Coats
This may not be exactly what we were looking for ... but it is a "definite" clue.
I'm going to bid on the catalog anyway just because the seller was so helpful ... $20.00 Max!
Bob
It shows a ...
Crossed-Swords "Shoulder Board / Patch"
Connecticut
11
Regulation Rank Insignia For Service Uniforms
Full Dress Coats
This may not be exactly what we were looking for ... but it is a "definite" clue.
I'm going to bid on the catalog anyway just because the seller was so helpful ... $20.00 Max!
Bob
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
P.S. ~
At least we know now that the 30 on the West Virginia pin does not stand for ...
The August 30th Pythian Anniversary
The numbers 30 and 11 must represent one of the following ...
Division ~ Company ~ Regiment ~ Lodge
SBB
At least we know now that the 30 on the West Virginia pin does not stand for ...
The August 30th Pythian Anniversary
The numbers 30 and 11 must represent one of the following ...
Division ~ Company ~ Regiment ~ Lodge
SBB
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
P.S. ~ P.S.
I sent the seller another message thanking them and letting them know I would be bidding on the catalog. Plus, I finally remembered to ask about a date for when the the catalog was published. I'm sure I will hear back from them soon, and will post the date back on my page where I showed the picture of the shoulder board from the catalog.
allan / anyone
What do you know about ...
"Regulation Rank Full Dress Uniform Coats?"
Does this include or exclude "Officers?"
Thanks
Bob
I sent the seller another message thanking them and letting them know I would be bidding on the catalog. Plus, I finally remembered to ask about a date for when the the catalog was published. I'm sure I will hear back from them soon, and will post the date back on my page where I showed the picture of the shoulder board from the catalog.
allan / anyone
What do you know about ...
"Regulation Rank Full Dress Uniform Coats?"
Does this include or exclude "Officers?"
Thanks
Bob
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Bigcypresshunter
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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I heard from the seller, but he said he was "done" answering my questions. Which I thought was strange because he was so helpful earlier. Considering what I feel was a rude response, I'm not sure if I will bid on it or not. What could it have hurt him to tell me the date? Anyway, maybe one of you could wait until tomorrow and ask about the date. I didn't mention this forum and doubt he will make the connection.
I too think we are making progress, but just wish we knew for sure if it's for a ...
1. Guard?
2. Company?
3. Something else?
SBB
I too think we are making progress, but just wish we knew for sure if it's for a ...
1. Guard?
2. Company?
3. Something else?
SBB
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allan
Hero Member
Bob, I think most officers and the ranks have a close uniform but the officers had nicer buttons and some had cuffs and shoulder boards, some I have seen have silver and gold buttons and one I saw had black one's.Yes BCH ,the catalog listing of the pin in a KOP regalia catalog would be nice . prolly as close as we will get to having a pic of someone wearing one. and as I posted I saw your post Bob lol , I think the c is for the only UR listing we have for a C company in MO and the 30 is for the #30 lodge or whatever it was that came from wheeling .Kinda fit's right in, but dang it I can not prove it ..... yet lol
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SODABOTTLEBOB
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I just noticed in the small print below the illustration that it says ...
Equipment Straps
I wonder what they mean by "Equipment?"
Equipment Straps
I wonder what they mean by "Equipment?"
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Bigcypresshunter
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The catalog looks to be only about 20 pages. Im very surprised he cannot give the copyright date inside the cover. He should be thrilled that someone has interest in his item. I wouldnt be surprised if yours will be the only bid.SODABOTTLEBOB said:
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TheCannonballGuy
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In that context, the term "equipment strap" refers to the practical function of a uniform's shoulder-straps. Notice the buttonhole on them. You would unbutton that end of the shoulder-strap, put on your over-the-shoulder swordharness, and re-button the shoulder strap. That would prevent the swordharness's strap from sliding off your shoulder.
The shoulder-straps could also hold another piece of equipment in place... the shoulder-scales, which are also known as epaulletes.
BCH and SBB, although getting the catalog's actual printing date would be best, I noticed that in the Ebay seller's photos of pages from the M.C. Lilley catalog, the page on "Alterations" says July 17, 1912.
That figures in with what I was expecting, because the "heyday" of the KoP and UR seems to have been reached in the prosperous 19-teens through the 1920s, until the arrival of the Great Depression.
The shoulder-straps could also hold another piece of equipment in place... the shoulder-scales, which are also known as epaulletes.
BCH and SBB, although getting the catalog's actual printing date would be best, I noticed that in the Ebay seller's photos of pages from the M.C. Lilley catalog, the page on "Alterations" says July 17, 1912.
That figures in with what I was expecting, because the "heyday" of the KoP and UR seems to have been reached in the prosperous 19-teens through the 1920s, until the arrival of the Great Depression.
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Bigcypresshunter
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Maybe he thinks you are just asking questions about whats inside the book and will not bid or that you will not need to buy it, if he tells you what you need to know. Does he know you placed the only bid? Is it your bid with the over 8000 feedback rating? Looks like a dealer buying for resale.SODABOTTLEBOB said:
It seems that CBG solved the approx date of 1912.
Its only 20 pages so its a gamble if what we seek is inside. 
Ask if it has a crossed sword pin inside.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
TCG ~ Where exactly did you see the 1912 date? I believe you ~ I just can't find it.
allan ~ Little by little you are bringing me around to your "Missouri/Company C" theory. But I sure would like to see one of them pins with a letter on the bottom of it instead of a number. Maybe the regalia companies didn't make them with letters and that's why Bill_S's pin looks altered.
Big Cy ~ Yeah, I think some of those e-bay sellers have limited interest in answering too many questions ... and I did ask him about a crossed swords "pin." I didn't know about the shoulder boards/epaulettes until he posted the picture from the catalog.
Has anybody but me started a search for more Knights of Pythias shoulder-boards? You better hurry before I beat you to it. Lol
Bob
allan ~ Little by little you are bringing me around to your "Missouri/Company C" theory. But I sure would like to see one of them pins with a letter on the bottom of it instead of a number. Maybe the regalia companies didn't make them with letters and that's why Bill_S's pin looks altered.
Big Cy ~ Yeah, I think some of those e-bay sellers have limited interest in answering too many questions ... and I did ask him about a crossed swords "pin." I didn't know about the shoulder boards/epaulettes until he posted the picture from the catalog.
Has anybody but me started a search for more Knights of Pythias shoulder-boards? You better hurry before I beat you to it. Lol
Bob
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allan
Hero Member
allan ~ Little by little you are bringing me around to your "Missouri/Company C" theory. But I sure would like to see one of them pins with a letter on the bottom of it instead of a number. Maybe the regalia companies didn't make them with letters and that's why Bill_S's pin looks altered.
Welllll there are few UR groups with letters instead of number's , so all that you need to do is find a few more of these pin's , seem's simple ? lol
Welllll there are few UR groups with letters instead of number's , so all that you need to do is find a few more of these pin's , seem's simple ? lol
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
In support of my belief that the numbers on the bottom of the W. VA. pin and the Conn. shoulder-board represent "Companies," I present the following for your consideration.
I'm not 100% sure which war it represents, but I believe it is WWI
It's a medal presented to a Knight in acknowledgement of his service in the military. And specifically a European conflict. Please believe me when I say it is extremely rare to find a Knights of Pythias military related item with this much information on it. And I have looked at hundreds of various items! At best some might have an individual's name on it, but usually that's about as good as it gets.
But here we have a medal with ...
Indiana Brigade ~ Sir Knight ~ Name ~ Company No. 83
I realize this is not proof-positive that the numbers 30 and 11 represent companies. But I do believe it's evidence worth considering. From what I have read in the two books I acquired, Brigades had names, not numbers. If nothing else, I believe it eliminates the possibility of the numbers representing Brigades.
Additionally ... I also believe the Kepi numbers are for Companies.
Thanks.
Bob
I'm not 100% sure which war it represents, but I believe it is WWI
It's a medal presented to a Knight in acknowledgement of his service in the military. And specifically a European conflict. Please believe me when I say it is extremely rare to find a Knights of Pythias military related item with this much information on it. And I have looked at hundreds of various items! At best some might have an individual's name on it, but usually that's about as good as it gets.
But here we have a medal with ...
Indiana Brigade ~ Sir Knight ~ Name ~ Company No. 83
I realize this is not proof-positive that the numbers 30 and 11 represent companies. But I do believe it's evidence worth considering. From what I have read in the two books I acquired, Brigades had names, not numbers. If nothing else, I believe it eliminates the possibility of the numbers representing Brigades.
Additionally ... I also believe the Kepi numbers are for Companies.
Thanks.
Bob
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Here's the date TheCannonballGuy mentioned. I'm surprised it was so hard for me to find. Thanks TCG
Plus, I now think when the seller responded to my query about the date ... but simply replied to me by writing the single word "Done," that he was not saying he was done answering my questions, but that he meant the date was "Done already pictured." Which seems a strange way of wording it instead of just telling me where to look for the date. But I'm sure that's what he meant, and was actually being helpful and not rude. So I apologize for thinking him rude, and intend to bid on the catalog afterall.
July 17, 1912
Plus, I now think when the seller responded to my query about the date ... but simply replied to me by writing the single word "Done," that he was not saying he was done answering my questions, but that he meant the date was "Done already pictured." Which seems a strange way of wording it instead of just telling me where to look for the date. But I'm sure that's what he meant, and was actually being helpful and not rude. So I apologize for thinking him rude, and intend to bid on the catalog afterall.
July 17, 1912
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Remember that Knights of Pythias "Emblematic Chart" I was looking for a while back? I just found this on e-bay. And it's okay for those who want to donate toward my $200.00 fund drive so I can bid on it. In return you will receive a full-color 8" x 11" photo-copy.
But hurry, because this offer won't last! (Lol)
< < < "Don't push and shove, now! Everyone will get their chance to donate!"
Bob
E-bay Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Kni...1079?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fd64960
[ E-bay listing shows lots of cool close ups ]
But hurry, because this offer won't last! (Lol)
< < < "Don't push and shove, now! Everyone will get their chance to donate!"Bob
E-bay Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Kni...1079?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fd64960
[ E-bay listing shows lots of cool close ups ]
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
This is part of my ongoing research in support of my belief that the numbers on the West Virginia (30) and the Connecticut (11) pins represent Companies of the Uniform Ranks of The Knights of Pythias.
The chart below is from the 1910 book. (Company totals are for 1907/08).
My understanding of the term "Not yet reported" means not officially established yet.
Of particular interest is the fact that the majority of the Company totals for any given state (except Ohio @ 116) in 1907 and 1908, come to 61 or less per state.
West Virginia 1907 = 31 Companies / 1908 = 36 Companies
Connecticut 1907 = 20 Companies / 1908 = 21 Companies
Company numbers were issued according to the sequence in which the Companies were formed, starting with Company No. 1 and so on.
So if the numbers on the pins are in fact Company numbers, and there is a trend here, then it would date the West Virginia pin to about 1906. (It's hard to say about the Connecticut pin ~ but "maybe" 1900, depending on how fast the Companies increased during that time period).
Plus, this closely coincides with the Kepis I have been keeping records on and pictures of, which generally range in numbers 82 or less (except Ohio @ 101).
I realize none of this is proof-positive. But I do believe it to be one more piece to the puzzle in support of my belief that the pin numbers are ...
"Company Numbers"
The chart below is from the 1910 book. (Company totals are for 1907/08).
My understanding of the term "Not yet reported" means not officially established yet.
Of particular interest is the fact that the majority of the Company totals for any given state (except Ohio @ 116) in 1907 and 1908, come to 61 or less per state.
West Virginia 1907 = 31 Companies / 1908 = 36 Companies
Connecticut 1907 = 20 Companies / 1908 = 21 Companies
Company numbers were issued according to the sequence in which the Companies were formed, starting with Company No. 1 and so on.
So if the numbers on the pins are in fact Company numbers, and there is a trend here, then it would date the West Virginia pin to about 1906. (It's hard to say about the Connecticut pin ~ but "maybe" 1900, depending on how fast the Companies increased during that time period).
Plus, this closely coincides with the Kepis I have been keeping records on and pictures of, which generally range in numbers 82 or less (except Ohio @ 101).
I realize none of this is proof-positive. But I do believe it to be one more piece to the puzzle in support of my belief that the pin numbers are ...
"Company Numbers"
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Here are the Kepi states/numbers again. Notice the Ohio kepi numbers are higher in count just as they are on the chart above. Also notice that Washington state had one of the lower totals in both regards. Of course, I haven't found a picture of every kepi ever made, but their relative numbers seem to fit a trend.
Speaking of Ohio ... That's where the majority of the regalia manufactures were located. And did you know that Mr. Pettibone and Mr. Mitchell Lilley were both members of The Knights of Pythias? Hmmm ... how convienient.
1. Illinois # 21 ~ #47
2. Indiana #22 ~ #82 ~ #104
3. Kansas #38
4. Kentucky #1 ~ #10
5. Maine #13 ~ #22 ~ #26
6. Massachusetts #21 ~ #3
7. Michigan #23 ~ #62
8. Missouri #46
9. Nebraska #23
10. New Hampshire #13 ~ #22
11. Ohio #38 ~ #41 ~ #65 ~ #101
12. Pennsylvania #5
13. Tennessee #39
14. Washington state #3
Speaking of Ohio ... That's where the majority of the regalia manufactures were located. And did you know that Mr. Pettibone and Mr. Mitchell Lilley were both members of The Knights of Pythias? Hmmm ... how convienient.
1. Illinois # 21 ~ #47
2. Indiana #22 ~ #82 ~ #104
3. Kansas #38
4. Kentucky #1 ~ #10
5. Maine #13 ~ #22 ~ #26
6. Massachusetts #21 ~ #3
7. Michigan #23 ~ #62
8. Missouri #46
9. Nebraska #23
10. New Hampshire #13 ~ #22
11. Ohio #38 ~ #41 ~ #65 ~ #101
12. Pennsylvania #5
13. Tennessee #39
14. Washington state #3
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Below is from the 1910 book ...
Chapter II
History of the Uniform Rank
This should give you some idea of what I meant earlier when I said some of this stuff is rather confusing ... meaning it's hard to make sense of all the different aspects of the Uniform Ranks. Notice in 1903 there were a total of 974 Companies. And in 1904 there were 981. Which was an overall increase of 7 Companies. And yet the Brigade total remained the same at 26.
[ Counts below are national totals ]
Chapter II
History of the Uniform Rank
This should give you some idea of what I meant earlier when I said some of this stuff is rather confusing ... meaning it's hard to make sense of all the different aspects of the Uniform Ranks. Notice in 1903 there were a total of 974 Companies. And in 1904 there were 981. Which was an overall increase of 7 Companies. And yet the Brigade total remained the same at 26.
[ Counts below are national totals ]
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