Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.
Help with ID on military looking pin
- Thread starter Bill_S
- Start date
SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Bill_S
Based on my recent findings, it appears that both yours and the West Virginia pins are represenative of one of the ...
"Inner Guards"
I am still of the opinion that your pin is not original and was altered. By when and why we may never know. We may also never know what the missing letter is or what the "O" and "C" stand for. If I come across anything in the book that will help solve these mysteries, I will be sure to let you know right away.
Notice in the last paragraph above the references to "Collar" and "Breast."
Thanks again.
Bob
Based on my recent findings, it appears that both yours and the West Virginia pins are represenative of one of the ...
"Inner Guards"
I am still of the opinion that your pin is not original and was altered. By when and why we may never know. We may also never know what the missing letter is or what the "O" and "C" stand for. If I come across anything in the book that will help solve these mysteries, I will be sure to let you know right away.
Notice in the last paragraph above the references to "Collar" and "Breast."
Thanks again.
Bob
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Dano Sverige
Silver Member
What bothers me about these...and many many pic's i've seen, is that they are "blades down", where as our baby is "blades up"!
I feel this is significant in some way?
I feel this is significant in some way?
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
DS ~
It's interesting you should mention that, because I was wondering the same thing. However, the book shows just about every symbol imaginable, including a badge/ribbon with ...
"Blades Up"
The picture of it doesn't tell me much, so I need to do some reading to see what I can find. I will report back with this as soon as possible. Note: The book is 502 pages long and has a ton of information that I have just barely scratched the surface on.
Bob
It's interesting you should mention that, because I was wondering the same thing. However, the book shows just about every symbol imaginable, including a badge/ribbon with ...
"Blades Up"
The picture of it doesn't tell me much, so I need to do some reading to see what I can find. I will report back with this as soon as possible. Note: The book is 502 pages long and has a ton of information that I have just barely scratched the surface on.
Bob
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
In print too small to post a picture of, and in one of the numerous "Articles," I found the following information that I will include here word for word. (It "may" explain the No. 30).
ARTICLE XIII
Section 1. The 30th day of August, in each and every year, is hereby designated as the Anniversary of the Uniform Rank, which, together with the 19th day of February, or Pythian Period, should be observed by parade. And other parades may be called at the discretion of the Commander of the Subordinate Division, Regimental or Brigade Commanders, or by the Major General or Supreme Chancellor.
SBB
Note: The book I have is an 1886 "original" and not a reprint. I had to request it from a College Library. I'm surprised they allowed it leave the library because most of these types of books are "reference only" and never allowed to be circulated in the public system.
ARTICLE XIII
Section 1. The 30th day of August, in each and every year, is hereby designated as the Anniversary of the Uniform Rank, which, together with the 19th day of February, or Pythian Period, should be observed by parade. And other parades may be called at the discretion of the Commander of the Subordinate Division, Regimental or Brigade Commanders, or by the Major General or Supreme Chancellor.
SBB
Note: The book I have is an 1886 "original" and not a reprint. I had to request it from a College Library. I'm surprised they allowed it leave the library because most of these types of books are "reference only" and never allowed to be circulated in the public system.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
The illustration below is the only page in the book that shows regalia pertaining to the "Subordinate Divisions." Which I believe is basically the same as the "Uniform Ranks." Some of the information is quite confusing no matter how hard I try to make sense of it. Here you will see the "Division Badge" I referred to earlier, and is the only illustration in the book that shows the blades pointing "Up." I looked for a reference to this particular badge, but so far have not found one. Also note where it says these particular items were adopted in 1884. Based on everything I have read so far, a lot of the items pictured and discussed seem to be rather generic, and not neccessarily what the actual, everyday items looked like. For example, regarding the "Guard" pins I posted pictures of earlier, a lot of them I have never seen actual examples of on the internet, and may have been revised before they went into full production. This is where one of the original regalia company catalogs would prove itself invaluable, because I suspect they show the real-deal, finished products.
Another thing of interest I discovered (and am still researching) is that when the book was published in 1886 there appears to only have been six (6) Lodges in West Virgina, and only one (1) in Missouri at that time. So if the "30" does turn out to be a Lodge number, it would had to of been established sometime after 1886.
There is so much information in the book, it almost boggles my mind as to how the members could keep track of so much stuff. No wonder when someone said "jump," that about twenty guys probably wet their pants. (Lol) Totally weird stuff!
SBB
Uniform Regalia ~ 1884
Of the hundreds of pins and badges I've looked at on the internet, I never once saw one that even came close to the Division Badge below. And even it might be some kind of ...
"Divisional Inner Guard Badge"
Added Oct 15, 2011 ... I finally found a Divisional Badge/Ribbon. But it's different than the one from the 1886 Book. I do not know the date of the one shown below.
Another thing of interest I discovered (and am still researching) is that when the book was published in 1886 there appears to only have been six (6) Lodges in West Virgina, and only one (1) in Missouri at that time. So if the "30" does turn out to be a Lodge number, it would had to of been established sometime after 1886.
There is so much information in the book, it almost boggles my mind as to how the members could keep track of so much stuff. No wonder when someone said "jump," that about twenty guys probably wet their pants. (Lol) Totally weird stuff!
SBB
Uniform Regalia ~ 1884
Of the hundreds of pins and badges I've looked at on the internet, I never once saw one that even came close to the Division Badge below. And even it might be some kind of ...
"Divisional Inner Guard Badge"
Added Oct 15, 2011 ... I finally found a Divisional Badge/Ribbon. But it's different than the one from the 1886 Book. I do not know the date of the one shown below.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
So take your pick ...
1. W. VA. ~ 30th Division
2. W. VA. ~ Inner Guard ~ August 30th Pythian Period Anniversary
3. Something Else
?
SBB
1. W. VA. ~ 30th Division
2. W. VA. ~ Inner Guard ~ August 30th Pythian Period Anniversary
3. Something Else
?
SBB
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Long story short ...
I have read everything I can pertaining to Uniform Ranks ~ Badges ~ Pins ~ Uniforms ~ Regalia ~ Kepis ~ Helmets ~ Sashes ~ etc; and have arrived at the only logical conclusion I can come up with, which is, the Crossed Swords symbol was the insignia of the ...
"INNER GUARDS"
I intend to do some more reading, but can't imagine finding anything new that will refute this.
SBB
I have read everything I can pertaining to Uniform Ranks ~ Badges ~ Pins ~ Uniforms ~ Regalia ~ Kepis ~ Helmets ~ Sashes ~ etc; and have arrived at the only logical conclusion I can come up with, which is, the Crossed Swords symbol was the insignia of the ...
"INNER GUARDS"
I intend to do some more reading, but can't imagine finding anything new that will refute this.
SBB
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Regarding the number 30 ... ?
The only mention of the number 30 in the book is the August 30th anniversary I spoke of earlier. Other than that there is nothing I can connect it to ... other than to "speculate" and say that it "might" represent one of the following ...
Division/Company/Regiment/Lodge/Other?
As for dating both pins, your guess is as good as mine. They might even be early 1900s or later. It's hard to say. I think the only way we will ever know that will be to contact a Knights of Pythias expert, or else just keep looking through books. I'm confident one of those regalia sales catalogs will hold a clue or two ... if we could just find a couple of them. Maybe I will make that my next project.
This topic gets my official "Bob's Green Bottle Cap Award." Which means it was one of my alltime favorite challenges, and that in my opinion it "may" be partially solved, with just a pinch of ...
"Mystery and a message in a Bottle"
... thrown in for good measure.
(finis)
Thanks!
SODABOTTLEBOB
The only mention of the number 30 in the book is the August 30th anniversary I spoke of earlier. Other than that there is nothing I can connect it to ... other than to "speculate" and say that it "might" represent one of the following ...
Division/Company/Regiment/Lodge/Other?
As for dating both pins, your guess is as good as mine. They might even be early 1900s or later. It's hard to say. I think the only way we will ever know that will be to contact a Knights of Pythias expert, or else just keep looking through books. I'm confident one of those regalia sales catalogs will hold a clue or two ... if we could just find a couple of them. Maybe I will make that my next project.
This topic gets my official "Bob's Green Bottle Cap Award." Which means it was one of my alltime favorite challenges, and that in my opinion it "may" be partially solved, with just a pinch of ...
"Mystery and a message in a Bottle"
... thrown in for good measure.
(finis)
Thanks!
SODABOTTLEBOB Attachments
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Hi again ~
I got my hands on another book and thought I'd share the following chart to help establish a couple of dates. The book itself is more of a history and was written by an individual member in 1910. It only has a handful of pictures, but none of symblos ~ badges ~ etc.
The History
of the
Knights of Pythias
By
Capt. Hugh Goold Webb
Published By
The Uniform Rank Co-Operative Association
Anaheim, California
1910
(470 Pages)
I am posting the chart in large format for easy reading. The states are not listed alphabetically, but it indicates what years the first Temples were established in any given state. Notice ...
No.4 Missouri ........... 1890
No.32 West Virginia .... 1903/1905
It doesn't tell us much about Bill_S's pin, but it does confirm that the West Virginia pin would date sometime during or after ...
1903 (Note: Please see correction next page)
32. W. VA. > To the right where it shows the first entry of ................ 11 Temples
The information is thru 1907
Note: Use "bottom" slide bar to see entire chart.
I got my hands on another book and thought I'd share the following chart to help establish a couple of dates. The book itself is more of a history and was written by an individual member in 1910. It only has a handful of pictures, but none of symblos ~ badges ~ etc.
The History
of the
Knights of Pythias
By
Capt. Hugh Goold Webb
Published By
The Uniform Rank Co-Operative Association
Anaheim, California
1910
(470 Pages)
I am posting the chart in large format for easy reading. The states are not listed alphabetically, but it indicates what years the first Temples were established in any given state. Notice ...
No.4 Missouri ........... 1890
No.32 West Virginia .... 1903/1905
It doesn't tell us much about Bill_S's pin, but it does confirm that the West Virginia pin would date sometime during or after ...
1903 (Note: Please see correction next page)
32. W. VA. > To the right where it shows the first entry of ................ 11 Temples
The information is thru 1907
Note: Use "bottom" slide bar to see entire chart.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Major Correction ... New Dates
The information in the books is so extensive, it can be totally confusing. So please accept my apologies with the following entry.
I failed to realize that the chart in my last post was for "Grand Temples." I just discovered some additional information in the 1910 book regarding "Grand Lodges." Apparently the Grand Lodges were established first ... followed later by the Grand Temples. So the following are the new, corrected dates for when the first Lodges were established ...
West Virginia: July 5, 1869
Missouri: July 7, 1871
Sorry about that ... I'm doing the best I can with some totally crazy stuff.
Bob
The information in the books is so extensive, it can be totally confusing. So please accept my apologies with the following entry.
I failed to realize that the chart in my last post was for "Grand Temples." I just discovered some additional information in the 1910 book regarding "Grand Lodges." Apparently the Grand Lodges were established first ... followed later by the Grand Temples. So the following are the new, corrected dates for when the first Lodges were established ...
West Virginia: July 5, 1869
Missouri: July 7, 1871
Sorry about that ... I'm doing the best I can with some totally crazy stuff.
Bob
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
allan ~
I have leads on several more books, but their availability is extremely limited. Many are reference only. If you have a college or major library in your area, it might be worth a visit.
But mainly I am looking to secure (even if I have to buy them) those regalia catalogs. I just know the pins have to be pictured in at least one of them, which should tell us everything we need to know about the pins without having to sift through all of this history stuff. But not knowing exactly when the pins were made, and then trying to find the right catalog spanning several years where they might be shown, is going to be my biggest challenge of all. But I am determined to see this through no matter what!
Bob
I have leads on several more books, but their availability is extremely limited. Many are reference only. If you have a college or major library in your area, it might be worth a visit.
But mainly I am looking to secure (even if I have to buy them) those regalia catalogs. I just know the pins have to be pictured in at least one of them, which should tell us everything we need to know about the pins without having to sift through all of this history stuff. But not knowing exactly when the pins were made, and then trying to find the right catalog spanning several years where they might be shown, is going to be my biggest challenge of all. But I am determined to see this through no matter what!
Bob
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
I found the following which is part of a pdf downloadable file for ...
The M.C. Lilley & Co. Manufacturing
Columbus, Ohio
Link: You Will Need To PDF Download
http://etd.ohiolink.edu/view.cgi/Mc... Harriet Wain.pdf?osu1224791800
Go To Page Number 373
I.S. and O.S. References Below Stand for Inner and Outer ... S = ?
~*~
Copy/Pasted Knights of Pythias
Sec. 2 The working regalia shall be as follows:
For Pages, a blue collar; for Esquires, a yellow
collar; for Knights, a red collar; for V.P., a black velvet
collar, with silver fringe one and a half inches long, and
silver lace border on inner edge half inch wide, and an open
Bible embroidered in silver on the left side; for W.C., a
collar of scarlet velvet, trimmed in the same manner as the
V.P.'s , with crossed gavels on left side: for V.C., the
same as the W.C.'s with single gavel; for R.S., the same as
the V.C.'s with crossed pens, omitting the fringe: for F.S.,
the same as the R.S.'s, with pen and key crossed; for B.,
the same as the F.S.'s, with crossed keys; for G., the same
as the B.'s with crossed staffs; for I.S., the same as the
G.'s, with crossed swords; for O.S., the same as the I.S.'s,
with single sword; for P.C., the same as the W. C.'s, with
gold fringe and without the gavels.
Page 373
The M.C. Lilley & Co. Manufacturing
Columbus, Ohio
Link: You Will Need To PDF Download
http://etd.ohiolink.edu/view.cgi/Mc... Harriet Wain.pdf?osu1224791800
Go To Page Number 373
I.S. and O.S. References Below Stand for Inner and Outer ... S = ?
~*~
Copy/Pasted Knights of Pythias
Sec. 2 The working regalia shall be as follows:
For Pages, a blue collar; for Esquires, a yellow
collar; for Knights, a red collar; for V.P., a black velvet
collar, with silver fringe one and a half inches long, and
silver lace border on inner edge half inch wide, and an open
Bible embroidered in silver on the left side; for W.C., a
collar of scarlet velvet, trimmed in the same manner as the
V.P.'s , with crossed gavels on left side: for V.C., the
same as the W.C.'s with single gavel; for R.S., the same as
the V.C.'s with crossed pens, omitting the fringe: for F.S.,
the same as the R.S.'s, with pen and key crossed; for B.,
the same as the F.S.'s, with crossed keys; for G., the same
as the B.'s with crossed staffs; for I.S., the same as the
G.'s, with crossed swords; for O.S., the same as the I.S.'s,
with single sword; for P.C., the same as the W. C.'s, with
gold fringe and without the gavels.
Page 373
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
allan ~
I need a little help determining what the "S" stands for in my last post. I know the "I" stands for "Inner" and the "O" stands for "Outer," but I am unsure about the "S." I suspect they are referring to another form of "Inner Guard" and "Outer Guard," but I can't quite figure out why they are using an "S" instead of a "G." The only thing I can think of at the moment is maybe "Sergeant."
Basically what they are saying is ...
"For the I.S.'s, the symbol is the same as the Guards, but has Crossed Swords"
If you run across anything specifically related to the "S", please let me know.
Thanks.
Bob
I need a little help determining what the "S" stands for in my last post. I know the "I" stands for "Inner" and the "O" stands for "Outer," but I am unsure about the "S." I suspect they are referring to another form of "Inner Guard" and "Outer Guard," but I can't quite figure out why they are using an "S" instead of a "G." The only thing I can think of at the moment is maybe "Sergeant."
Basically what they are saying is ...
"For the I.S.'s, the symbol is the same as the Guards, but has Crossed Swords"
If you run across anything specifically related to the "S", please let me know.
Thanks.
Bob
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allan
Hero Member
I believe it may be from the supreme inner and outer guards, these are all KOP items, They uniforms and regalia for these proceedings are different than those of the UR, even tho they may be the same people involved w/ both groups due to the fact that you have to be KOP before you can be UR. I am concentrating my searchs on the regalia supply catalog's now.Also I have been to the libraries here and trust me , few things are in english and most date no earlier than 1950. I did find out that there was a puerto rican chapter of the Kop though, interesting yet not relevant to these pins and I suspect they were not in the good old boy's KOP but the other
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
Additionally ...
I don't mind sharing with everyone that I found this catalog which is currently on e-bay and closes this coming Sunday, October 9, 2011 at 2:19 PM Pacific Time. I also don't mind telling you that I have already contacted the seller and described the crossed swords pin we are looking for. I just got a reply from the seller informing me that the catalog "does" show a pin similar to the one I described.
There is currently one bid on this catalog, which is at $7.99 now. The reason I'm sharing this with everyone, is because I hope someone else bids on it and wins it. That way, if it is the same pin, then we will have a final identification, but yet I won't have to pay for it.
Also, if the current single bid is that of a TN member who reads this, please let me know and I will help you pay for it so as to prevent some outsider from getting it. I am prepared to invest $20.00 for the cause. And if the bid is not that of a member, then I may go even higher to get it.
Here's the link if you want to check it out. But there is no 100% guarantee that it's the "identical" pin. The seller only said it was "very similar" to the one I described.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200659208651?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
I don't know and forgot to ask what year the catalog was published.
I don't mind sharing with everyone that I found this catalog which is currently on e-bay and closes this coming Sunday, October 9, 2011 at 2:19 PM Pacific Time. I also don't mind telling you that I have already contacted the seller and described the crossed swords pin we are looking for. I just got a reply from the seller informing me that the catalog "does" show a pin similar to the one I described.
There is currently one bid on this catalog, which is at $7.99 now. The reason I'm sharing this with everyone, is because I hope someone else bids on it and wins it. That way, if it is the same pin, then we will have a final identification, but yet I won't have to pay for it.
Also, if the current single bid is that of a TN member who reads this, please let me know and I will help you pay for it so as to prevent some outsider from getting it. I am prepared to invest $20.00 for the cause. And if the bid is not that of a member, then I may go even higher to get it.
Here's the link if you want to check it out. But there is no 100% guarantee that it's the "identical" pin. The seller only said it was "very similar" to the one I described.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200659208651?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
I don't know and forgot to ask what year the catalog was published.
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TheCannonballGuy
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If I may suggest... we don't want to have two TreasureNet people bidding against each other for that catalog. Settle on a single person here to be the bidder. I would volunteer to be the bidder, but I don't have a PayPal account, which Ebay now requires for payment when you win the auction.
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SODABOTTLEBOB
Silver Member
TCG ~
I agree. I have PayPal. Plus, I really don't mind winning and paying for it solo. But it would be nice to know if another member intends to bid. But just how high to go is another question? I think I better contact the seller again and try to get a more specific description. This may take a day, but I will report back just as soon as I hear from them.
Bob
I agree. I have PayPal. Plus, I really don't mind winning and paying for it solo. But it would be nice to know if another member intends to bid. But just how high to go is another question? I think I better contact the seller again and try to get a more specific description. This may take a day, but I will report back just as soon as I hear from them.
Bob
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