Help with ID on military looking pin

Bill_S · Sep 8, 2011

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

SODABOTTLEBOB · Sep 25, 2011

allan ~

OMG! That pin even has "Wheeling" on it! Thank you. You're my new best friend. Pretty soon I will have a complete Wheeling uniform ... all I need now is the kepi ~ jacket ~ pants ~ shoes ~ belt and shoes. (Lol)(Of course, we're still not sure what the "30" stands for on the W. VA. pin ~ maybe a lodge ~ maybe not) :dontknow:

In the meantime, here's a pretty decent "confirmed" Knights of Pythias uniform that closely matches the one worn by our mystery guy.

SBB

Dano Sverige · Sep 25, 2011

SODABOTTLEBOB said:
allan ~

The shoulder board/patch on the picture you posted has already been confirmed as being ...

Crossed "Axes"

Which is what the one on that website might be too ~ but I don't think it is

Bob

I meant to say this when i originally pointed out they were crossed poleaxes...well, a couple of posts after that actually but...the axe is crossed with a baton, similar to the one Hermann Goering used to carry around to look important. I've seen many pic's of swords and spears crossed with a baton, most being collar badges...it signifies "officer" status.
This probably means our crossed broadswords is a "lower ranks" symbol or possibly a higher rank than "officer", but i doubt it.

All the hours of searching from us all doesn't bode well for this pin! It's very odd that the only other find anyone has made that is remotely close is the WVA pin. I can't understand why pic's and info are so hard to find for something that looks to be a "common ranks" kind of item!

Bigcypresshunter · Sep 25, 2011

Dano Sverige said:
All the hours of searching from us all doesn't bode well for this pin! It's very odd that the only other find anyone has made that is remotely close is the WVA pin. I can't understand why pic's and info are so hard to find for something that looks to be a "common ranks" kind of item!

Yes its very odd and there is a lot of country between Missouri and West Virginia.

SODABOTTLEBOB · Sep 25, 2011

Maybe the answer is in one of these catalogs.

Bigcypresshunter · Sep 25, 2011

SODABOTTLEBOB said:
Maybe the answer is in one of these catalogs.

yes it should be in a catalog somewhere

allan · Sep 25, 2011

I have seen the 1891 edition over at the site where the wva pin is. We need between 1884 and 1890 , or it could be in the catalog for that lodge #79 ? I think it was, I have already contacted lauterer and they say it isn't one of theirs but maybe they just have no records of it.There are a few smaller co.'s out there but I can't find any of those catalogs for free online, except at usernet but I am not ready to spend money for anything yet. :icon_scratch:

SODABOTTLEBOB · Sep 25, 2011

Most of us know by now that crossed swords appear on a lot of Knights of Pythias items, including everything from pins to posters. And there seems to be a specific connection with both single as well as crossed crossed swords laid upon a Bible. I have read about this ritual, but admit I do not fully understand it just yet. If you go back to my post #336 and take a close look at the poster, you will see examples of swords on top of Bibles.

The first picture below is obviously of a Knights of Pythias ring. It is just one example of the Sword/Bible connection. The second picture is an unidentified pin with ribbon, but may very well be a Knights of Pythias pin. Notice the similarity between the sword on the ring and the sword on the pin. (No pun intended, but "Sword on the Ring" sounds like "Lord of the Rings").

Anyway, my point is that both Bill_S's pin and the W. VA. pin might have something to do with one of those Bible rituals, and not necessarily anything to do with Uniform Ranks ~ Lodges ~ etc. This is just one of several theories I have in my neverending quest to understand why the pins in question are so "Rare." :icon_scratch:

Note: I titled the single sword pin "crossed swords" to keep track of it in my photo gallery.

SBB

{ Knights of Pythias ring ~ Unidentified pin w/ribbon }

Bigcypresshunter · Sep 25, 2011

You guys are doing great. I would have green checked and/or given up 3 pages back.. Thats fantastic of you guys to volunteer your time and efforts to try to answer all questions about this item including the missing letter and its meaning. :hello2:

TN is about helping others and the What Is It forum is about getting it right. Its a group effort and anybody is welcome to join in the research at any time. :icon_thumright:

Someone said its about 75 percent solved. I hope you guys fill in the missing blanks. Maybe we could post a pic on the Militaria site to get the discussion going over there?

SODABOTTLEBOB · Sep 25, 2011

Lastly for this Sunday morning's entertainment, I present Exibit-? And I only post this out of pure desperation because lately I have been groping at any straws I can get my hands on. This photo came up during one of my numerous searches involving anything and everything related to the Knights of Pythias. It is an unidentifed photograph with a question mark as to which masonic/fraternal organization these guys were connected with. I draw your attention to the guy laying on the ground with the drum. What's that on his hat? And, no! It's not ...

"The Cat In The Hat"

Also notice the pin on the pants waist pocket of the kid in the center of the photo.

Have a great Sunday ~ I hope your team wins ~ Except the Chiefs against my Chargers.

"Go Team Go"

SBB

SODABOTTLEBOB · Sep 25, 2011

Big Cy ~

Regarding the Militaria Forum, I am just awaiting approval from them to post. I expect it will be tomorrow. I will let everyone here know what develops just as soon as I hear from them.

Bob

Retired Sarge · Sep 25, 2011

Which militaria forum? http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/, if so I am already a member and can post the OP's pin on there if needed, just let me know.

Mike
USAF Retired

SODABOTTLEBOB · Sep 25, 2011

Mike ~

That's the same forum where I found the W. VA. pin. Here is a direct link to that particular discussion. It is from 2009. I intended to ask the OP from that forum if his pin had a makers mark or anthing else he could tell us about it.

Link: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42394

Bob

Retired Sarge · Sep 25, 2011

Bob

Message sent to the poster/owner of the other pin on the US MIlitaria Forum, along with the link to the discussion regarding this pin. I will post any information I receive.

Mike

SODABOTTLEBOB · Sep 25, 2011

P.S. ~

Mike ...

I'd like to suggest if you contact the W. VA. pin guy, not to disclose just yet that his pin has been partially identified. I'd rather entice him to respond first out of curiosity. You just never know about people. If he knows ahead of time about his pin's idenity, he might just say, "oh, cool," but then never post a reply to say thank you or anything. Whereas, if we get him curious first, I think it might draw him out of hiding if he's even still around.

Thanks.

Bob

P.S./P.S ... added. I'm too late with this post. Hopefully the OP or someone else will respond.

SODABOTTLEBOB · Sep 25, 2011

Mike ~

Did you post a reply on the forum itself or send the guy a personal message? If you posted to the forum, I don't see your reply yet. But maybe it takes time before appearing.

Thanks again,

Bob

Retired Sarge · Sep 25, 2011

Sent him a PM, I hate necro-posting unless it is unavoidable.

Mike
USAF Retired

Michellets · Sep 25, 2011

Here's a Knights of Pythias uniform... or so I was told... where would that pin be put? The bottom part of this is seperate leggings that button up th side.

allan · Sep 25, 2011

Thats Knights of pythias, but not the uniform rank which would carry such a pin

Retired Sarge · Sep 25, 2011

Regarding the other pin, the poster on the other forum was not the finder, his buddy was, and the pin has since been sold, so he has no additional information on it. Well that took us to a dead end. :dontknow:

Hopefully someone on this forum will come up with the final answer, as they usually do!

Mike
USAF Retired

SODABOTTLEBOB · Sep 25, 2011

Thanks Mike ... it was worth a shot.

allan ~

You better put your "thinking cap" on for this one ... and do some more research to determine when all of that "changing of emblems" stuff occurred with the UR. The reason I say this is because I have made what I consider to be a major find ... and one that may throw a monkey wrench into the works.

As you know, I have quite a collection now of pictures of Knights of Pythias kepi hats. I can usually spot one a mile away. Well, take a close look at the two kepis below. Both are Knights of Pythias ~ both are from Indiana ~ both are almost identical in design and have the knots in the cord ~ and both have the identifying "Lily." Except now we have a new member to the kepi family that has ...

"Crossed Sabers"

So, "Mr. Smarty Pants Uniform Ranks" guy, how do you explain this one?

You know I'm just teasing you - I can't explain it either - but you have to admit this is a pretty cool discovery. The crossed sabers kepi was undated and listed as unidentifed, but because of the "lily/diamond" emblem and other features, I know it's a Knights of Pythias hat. But please don't ask me anything more about it, because now you know as much as I do.

And if for some strange reason it turns out to be something other than a Knights of Pythias kepi, I will eat my own hat. Lol :icon_thumleft: