Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

And did you know that Mr. Pettibone and Mr. Mitchell Lilley were both members of The Knights of Pythias? Hmmm ... how convienient.

Thats kinda the purpose of those secretive fraternal organizations is to give business to each other. My brother belongs to one of those societies and he gets 90 percent of his business from them.

As a matter of fact, my brother was upset when they elected to bring in another member that repairs computers. They will not allow 2 members in the same profession in the same group. It turned out that he was very specialized and would not interfere with my brothers business so he was allowed to join for now to see how it works out..

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I hope everyone is able to follow this Company stuff of mine, as it is not the easiest thing for me to spell out. The page below is from the 1886 book and hopefully will establish that each Uniform Rank "Division" did in fact include at least one "Guard." I can find no reference indicating that each "Company" had it's own Guard, but they may have. But we know now that Guards were in fact part of the Uniform Ranks on a Divisional basis.

And to reiterate what I discovered earlier ... The "only" reference/connection to crossed-swords I can find is that it was the insignia of the ...

"Inner Guards"

And even though the text below does not specifically say "Inner Guard," I honestly believe that a Guard is a Guard is a Guard, and that the double crossed-swords pins were the insignia of all of them ... with possible variations. Meaning ... the crossed-swords pins in question may have been those of "Divisional Guards" as opposed to the Inner Guards who performed most of their duties within the individual Lodges and Temples. A Division Guard would also have been part of his own Company during regular Company functions that did not involve the entire Division. Thus, I still believe the numbers are for "Companies" and not "Divisions."

[ 1886 Book ~ Page 151 ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

P.S. ~

And in case you are wondering why an Inner Guard would perform the duties of a Division Guard ... it may interest you to know that were it not for the Uniform Ranks, most of those so called secret societies would likely have folded up in nothing flat. In the 1910 book there are numerous accounts indicating that it was the opportunity for members to dress up as soldiers and perform in parades ~ encampments ~ drills, etc, that really caused the organizations to increase in numbers over the years. In fact, most of the members didn't really enjoy all of that crazy Lodge stuff, but did so only because it was required in order for them to be a member of the Uniform Ranks. Thus, a Guard likely had dual responsibilities both within the Lodge as well as during Divisional parades, etc.

In one section of the 1886 book it talks about how members of the Uniform Ranks complained about having to use swords instead of rifles ... saying, "How are we suppose to fight off possible invaders with swords, when the invaders will all have rifles?" The Supreme Officers gradually saw the logic in this, and eventually allowed the training and use of rifles within the Ranks. But the Ranks were never allowed to display them in public, nor carry them in parades. That was a no-no because of the need to protect their precious "image" because they were supposed to be the peaceable "Army of the Lily." Yeah, right! I bet those Uniform Rank guys would just loved to have blown some invader's head off!

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I just set down at my computer and realized I have gone just about as far with this as I possibly can. I don't know where else to look online that I haven't already been. Plus, I have read everything in the books to the point where I am now bored with that. I truly believe now that the ultimate answers will only be found in one or more of the regalia catalogs we have been talking about like the M.C. Lilley example on e-bay. Which I intend to bid on with the hope it contains a clue or two. If nothing else, and if I do happen to win it, it will make a nice souvenir to remind me of the hours and hours of time I have devoted to this project. But even with this said, I have no intention of purchasing twenty different catalogs just in the hope of eventually finding the right one. But this doesn't mean we can't keep our eyes peeled for future catalogs. And when they do pop up, maybe we should contact the sellers and see if they will tell us if the pins are pictured. If so, maybe they will even post a picture of it without us having to purchase the catalog outright. So that's my plan, as I can think of no other avenue that I haven't already been down ... and all the while bearing in mind that some of those so called avenues were nothing more than blind alleys.

~ Current Guess Until Further Notice ~

1. Knight of Pythias crossed swords pin / shoulder-board
2. West Virginia / Connecticut
3. Insignia of the Inner / Division Guards / Uniform Rank
4. Company No.30 and Company No.11
5. W. VA. Circa 1906 ~ Connecticut Circa 1900

(But you just know I'll be back!)

Later



Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Although I bid on the catalog today, I did not win it!

I bid $37.50 ~ It sold for $48.00

Oh, well.

But I did find this, which is described as ...

"Vintage Knights of Pythias Uniform Chevrons for Guard 1st Sergeant"



SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Check out this e-bay link. It will blow your mind!

http://www.ebay.com/sch/harleyrider17/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562

{ It's the same seller as the catalog ~ I wonder why he didn't tell me? }

[ The items were first listed on Friday, October 7th ]

(You just never know when or where the rabbit will pop up next)



SBB

The e-bay seller apparently knows something ~ Notice Staff Sergeant below.

[ U.S. Army Enlisted Ranks ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

As this thread may serve others in the future, plus the fact the e-bay images will eventually self delete, I add them here now for future reference. You will notice that some of the patches appear to be the same, but for some reason have slightly different lily sizes and placements. I'm not sure what they all mean just yet, other than the e-bay seller's descriptions which are included below each picture, but at least we now have a saved record of them to work with.

I still don't fully understand the seller's not mentioning the crossed-swords patch to me when I specifically explaind to him that I was looking for "anything" depicting crossed-swords. I'd like to ask him how he knows for certain that the one pictured earlier is that of a "Guard," but I'm afraid he might yell at me and tell me to stop bugging him. Just as I'm sure is the way some of you feel about these endless post of mine. But I expect this to be one of the last.

Thanks for not yelling at me. (Lol).

Bob

 

[allan]

I am sure that over the 70 or so years the UR lasted that things changed.And No reason to yell at you ..... unless you can not find out exactly what those pins are ! lol

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Okay, wise guy. I'm tossing this back in your court. What say you about sending the e-bay seller the following message? I'd do it myself, but I don't want him to smell a rat and tell me to go fly a kite. If you are interested in sending it, you can just copy/paste it as your own message. But if you rewrite it, I wouldn't mention this forum. The guy seems to have a lot of KOP stuff, and some working knowledge to go with it. He may even be a former/current member and/or a collector.

Thanks.

Bob

Here's my message and direct link to the Crossed-swords/Sergeant/Guard patch listing. If you send it, please let us know what he has to say. In case you have never sent an e-bay message before, just scroll down and click on where it says "ask a question."

[Message]

I am interested in your Knights of Pythias crossed swords patch that you describe as being the insignia of a "Guard." I see the "Sergeant" aspect of it, but I am curious as to what exactly designates the "Guard" aspect? Is it the crossed swords? If so, what does the Single Sword patch represent? Is that some kind of guard also?

[Link]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200660850931?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 

[allan]

When you make post's like the last one I really wonder if you really want to solve this Bob.... lol sent it off, lets see if he answers

 

[uglymailman]

If those chevrons are pre WW 1 then ya have them upside down.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

uglymailman ~

If you go to the actual e-bay listings where the chevrons are displayed, you will notice that the seller does show them the other way. I rotated them myself because ...

1. That's the way the chart shows most of that type of military uniform patches.
2. Almost everything I've seen related to the Knights of Pythias "Lilies" shows them
with the flower part up and the stem and leaves part down.

But the e-bay seller may be right and they could very well go the other way. I'm really not sure. Another thing about them that confuses me is their color (drab green). They look true U.S. Army in color. But from what I know about the KOP Uniform Ranks, they were never directly related to the U.S. Army. Most if not all of the KOP/UR uniforms I've seen are navy blue, and sometimes black, but not drab green. So your guess is as good as mine regarding how to make sense of some of these observations. The two books I have are dated 1886 and 1910, so both would be pre-WWI and not much help in this regard. Maybe allan knows the answer. He's done more research on the Ranks than I have. Mainly I'm just trying to establish a connection to the crossed-swords. Which I still believe is for "Guard" just as the the e-bay seller listed that one particular patch.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Hey allan ~

If you hear from the e-bay seller and establish a raport with him, please shoot him back a quick reply and see if he will tell you when the patches were made? I forgot that part, and it would be great to know.

Thanks.

Bob

 

[allan]

Well depending on where and when, I know at the start of the spanish american war the UR ranks were training with state guards and militias and were considered a trained and ready fighting force.highly desirable than sending someone into combat that had no military style training.I figure they may have even used standard us military style uniforms and equipment, possibly surplus or some that just looked close. I think you are right Bob about the insignia being worn that way since I have seen a few on uniforms shown that way.Could prolly get a better idea if we could just get our hand's on some catalogs from 1878 till 1917 or so lol.Look into the Missouri militia's, their history is interesting to say the least.as the uniform ranks were trained for military use it make's sense that they would mimic us uniform and training. maybe they wore the patchs that way to differentiate themselves from the US soldiers. pretty much speculating though

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Note: I edited my last post and added ... "sometimes black" where it refers to the colors of KOP/UR uniforms I have seen. However, I just found this one which is described as ...

"Original 1930's era uniform jacket for Uniform Rank of Knights of Pythias. Jacket is made from pre WWII U.S. Army wool serge uniform cloth, and is fully lined."

So if color is a factor here, then the "brownish" colored chevron patches 'may' have come from one of these 1930s "brownish" colored uniforms. Sounds good to me!

Added: Circa 1920s-30s Uniform Rank Cap and Shoulder Patch

SBB

[ 1930s Jacket ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I thought you might like to see what the whole gang looked like in full regalia. Here we have a 1923 photo from Michigan. Eventually I hope to identify which officer is which. It depends on their seated positions in relation to the Supreme Chancellor. I also need to confirm some of the others. But based on what I know so far, they are as follows ...

Standing Stewart/Guide? Standing Stewart/Guide?

Center Seated
Supreme Chancellor

Bearded Guy / Scribe ? Axe ~ Master At Arms

Left Standing Inner? Guard Right Standing Outer? Guard

(Guards Helmets Have Visors)

Officers and Representatives List:

Chancellor
Vice Chancellor
Vernerable Patriarch
Prelate
Banker
Master of Exchequer
Scribe
Records Keeper
Guide
Master at Arms
Inner Steward
Outer Steward
Inner Guard
Outer Guard

Numbers 1 thru 10 represent seated officers ~ I'm not sure why they are out of sequence?

"Champions" refers to the trophy ~ They must have won a competition.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Note: Something is wrong with the recent "view count" on posted pictures. Way out of wack!

Anyway ...

Hey allan!

While we are waiting patiently to see if you heard from the e-bay seller, I thought I'd share the following and see if you realized yet that the uniform you posted a picture of on post #244 has a "Quartermaster" chevron on the sleeve? Do you happen to know what year that uniform is from?

{The purpose of these latest post are twofold ~ Identifying Guards and Dating the Chevrons}

Thanks.

Bob

[ Notice the patch on the sleeve points "up." ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

sent it off, lets see if he answers

allan ~

Just curious if you have heard from the e-bay seller yet? I believe they are required to reply to all inquiries within 72 hours.

Thanks.

Bob

 

[allan]

Not a word Bob, I guess he only wants to answer questions that he wants to.or he just has no clue. No big deal, I am sure we will come up with the answers eventually. I have started rooting around the web again looking for anything I can find.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Thanks. Maybe he is aware of this forum and got spooked. But whatever the case, we'll figure it out eventually. As you probably know, I still believe the crossed swords represent "Inner Guards." And although I have tapered off on my own research, I am still trying to make a connection between the pins as being that of collar insignias for "Uniform Rank Guards."

And just for the fun of it, I am also working on trying to figure out who's who in the black & white photograph I posted. Here's what I have come up with so far ...

~ * ~

The Grand Chancellor presides over meetings and aids the Vice-Chancellor who performs social and organizational duties. The Keeper of Records and Seal act as secretary, recording minutes and managing correspondence. The Inner and Outer Guard tend the doors. The Master of Exchequer and of Finance issue warrants, disbursed funds, and balanced the ledger. The only annual salaried positions are those of the Keeper of Records and Seal, who receive $24.00 each. The Exchequer receives $10.00. The Master of Finance receives 10% of all dues collected from members.

~ * ~

The station of the Chancellor Commander is in the executive chair of the lodge. It is his duty to preside over the lodge; to preserve order during its sessions; to appoint a majority of all committees, and to perform all other services required of him by the laws of the order and the by-laws of the lodge.

Vice Chancellor, where is your station and what are your duties in this lodge?
Vice Chancellor, standing: "My station is opposite that of the Chancellor Commander. My duties are to assist the Chancellor Commander in preserving order; to aid in conducting the ceremonies of the ranks; to appoint a minority of all committees, and to preside in the absence of the Chancellor Commander."


Outer Guard, your station is in the ante-room. Your duties are to take charge of the outer door; to see that no one enters the ante-room who is not in possession of the semi-annual password, unless otherwise ordered by the Chancellor Commander.


Inner Guard, your station is at the inner door. Your duties are to allow no one to enter the lodge-room who does not give the correct alarm and password; and to obey the orders of the Chancellor Commander.

Master at Arms, where is your station and what are your duties in this lodge?
Master at Arms, standing: "My station is at the right and front of the Chancellor Commander. My duties are to examine all present prior to the opening of the lodge, and to report the result to the Chancellor Commander; to prepare and accompany candidates; and to obey the orders of the Chancellor Commander."

Treasurer, where is your station and what are your duties in this lodge?
Treasurer, standing: "My station is at the left of the Chancellor Commander. My duties are to receive from the Financial Secretary all moneys collected by him, and to disburse them only on an order from the Chancellor Commander."

Financial Secretary, where is your station and what are your duties in this lodge?
Financial Secretary, standing: "My station is at the left of the Chancellor Commander. My duties are to keep the accounts of this lodge; to notify all who are in arrears; to receive all moneys, and immediately pay the same to the Treasurer."

Secretary, where is your station and what are your duties in this lodge?
Secretary, standing: "My station is at the right of the Chancellor Commander. My duties are to keep a true record of all the proceedings of this lodge; to conduct all its correspondence; to have charge of the seal and archives; to make out semi-annual (or annual) reports of the work and business of the lodge, and transmit the same to the Grand Lodge; to deliver to the proper officers all funds, documents or other lodge property coming into my hands; and to perform all other services required of me by the laws of the order and the by-laws of this lodge."


Master of the Work, where is your station and what are your duties in this lodge?
Master of the Work, standing: "My station is at the right of the Chancellor Commander, opposite the altar. My duties are to have special supervision of all preparations for floor-work in conferring the ranks; and to perform all other services required of me by the laws of the order and the by-laws of this lodge."

Prelate, where is your station and what are your duties in this lodge?
Prelate, standing: "My station is at the left of the Chancellor Commander, opposite the altar. My duties are to administer the obligations; to offer invocations to the Deity and ask his blessings upon our brotherhood; and to perform all other services required of me by the laws of the order and the by-laws of this lodge."

[ Similar, but as yet unidentified examples of "Guard" helmets ]

1st .... Possible Inner Guard
2nd ... Possible Outer Guard