humm worth while -- $5,000,000 in 1820 gold bullion -- 30 feet deep-- off of

[ivan salis]

lost on a reef off the the mouth of the suwanne river is a vessel lost in 1820 * carrying $5,000,000 in gold bullion-- it was a schooner that was being escorted by a gunboat to havana to turn over to spain a payment for damages of $5,000,000 in gold bullion ---spain was to give over to the united states florida in exchange for this payment. --the vessels were hit by a massive storm and the schooner spang a leak and was taking on water --the vessels capt attempted to run her aground to save the crew and cargo but hit a reef in about 30 feet of water and sank off the mouth of the suwannee river. --- 5 million at 1820 gold prices ($22 per oz) would be worth much much more than that now.since golds at $848.80 per oz ( 38.581818 times as much) -- so 5 million worth of 1820 gold is worth ($ 192,909,090 today )--- good luck ---Ivan

 

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[G.I.B.]

I can't believe that there should be any room there to drop my anchor... This has not been found?

Let the bull shark feeding frenzy begin!

I've got the boat if you've got the mag-

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Ivan:

This sounds like a story from either "Dr." L. Frank Hudson or F.L. Coffman. Unfortunately, these authors are considerably more popular than accurate.

However, if you're interested in finding out more about this story, may I offer a couple of research suggestions?

Some years ago I researched the wreck of the Brother Jonathan, and the US Government archives are not only remarkably complete but easy to access. This hulk was supposed to hold a huge US army payroll, along with gold coin being paid to an Indian tribe per treaty (!). It turned out there was a modest payroll aboard - packed in "an iron box or safe" and consisting of paper money.

The paymaster - Major Eddy - had included in his will that his estate was not be settled until his accourts with the US Army were balanced in full!

If I were to research this one, for example, I would start with the on-iine Congressional Record. If funds were going to be paid to the government of Spain, Congress would have had to vote on it. The captain of the lost vessel would have, I believe, been courtmartialed for the wreck. There would be records of that. Chances are the newspapers of the day - perhaps Nile's Register? - would have a story or two about the disaster.

Unless you are in the Washington, DC area, or near one of the respositories of Federal archives, the on-line Congressional Record is probably the easiest place to begin.

 

[Darren in NC]

The Brother Jonathan was already salvaged by Gary Gentile and his crew a few years ago. The Suwanee River wreck was the "ghost ship" Peg Leg was after. I personally find it hard to believe they wouldn't have salvaged it at the time of loss. There are some known wrecks in the area, and an agreement with Florida is possible, but be prepared for years of legal due dilligence. My vote is to find the wrecks in int'l waters.

 

[ivan salis]

the paymemt was "damages" paid by the US govt to spain because americans had settled in western florida without spain's blessing -- the US agreed to pay $ 5,000,000 in gold to spain and spain agreed to give up florida to the US since they were too weak to protect and control it effectively. -- the sale was in effect held up due to the loss of this "payment" and was not completed until 1821 when the second "payment" arrived-- hurricane force winds were the cause of vessel sinking so the capt was held blameless. (act of god) the historical record of this wreck is there -- word is the gold has not been found to date (yet)

the legal dealings of this wreck will be a "royal" real pain---US GOVT GOLD (I'm sure the federal govt will claim it as theirs --count on it ) --in florida state waters (sure their going to want a "piece of the action" somehow ) yep finding it very well might be the easy part.--- getting to keep any of it will be the hard part.

some folks if they found it might not say squat to anyone and just get the gold value from the finds by melting it down and selling it off bit by bit. but thats not legal by the "law"

 

[aquanut]

Darren,
Just so nobody wastes their time looking at Pegleg's old posts...This wasn't Pegleg's "Ghostship".
Aquanut

 

[ivan salis]

god bless poor old peg leg --hope hes sitting on a pile of gold --laughing his butt off.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Darren in NC:

When I published my original research on the Brother Jonathan the wreck had not been found. Through the efforts of the late Phil Burton I received permission from the US House of Representatives to publish documentation for the first time. Whether that took a "private bill" or just a word from Mr. Burton I do not know. I do know that my article was the first time accurate information on the lost US Army payroll first saw the light of day.

And to the best of my knowledge that information was correct because when the wreck was found - before the salvors broke up in their dispute - the storied millions in US Army gold was not recovered. Because it was not there.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Ivan Salis:

After reading your post (and I would be interested in learning your source for this information, if you're willing to share it) I did some poking around on the 'net and came up with some interesting information.

Although the history books (and many history sites) talk about the Florida "Purchase" apparently no money changed hands for the land. There was an assumption of a $5,000,000 liability (does that figure sound familiar?) by the United States government.

One source states:

Adams used the Jackson’s military action to present Spain with a demand to either control the inhabitants of East Florida or cede it to the United States. Minister Onís and Secretary Adams reached an agreement whereby Spain ceded East Florida to the United States and renounced all claim to West Florida. Spain received no compensation, but the United States agreed to assume liability for $5 million in damage done by American citizens who rebelled against Spain. Under the Onís-Adams Treaty of 1819 (also called the Transcontinental Treaty and ratified in 1821) the United States and Spain defined the western limits of the Louisiana Purchase and Spain surrendered its claims to the Pacific Northwest. In return, the United States recognized Spanish sovereignty over Texas.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/jd/16320.htm

Another source states that the money was paid to American citizens for damages done by Spain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adams-Onís_Treaty

If this version is correct, then there would be extensive records of the claims made and the claims paid.

As you point out, there would be some governmental claims on the gold if it were found. Lately the Spanish government has become aggressive in persuing such claims:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/06/08/spain.treasure/index.html

There are a number of articles on the "Black Swan" case - and plenty of accounts here on the TreasureNet Forum, as well.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[jeff k]

"The Adams-Onís Treaty, also known as the Transcontinental Treaty, was signed on February 22, 1819 by John Quincy Adams and Luis de Onís, but did not take effect until it was ratified by the Spanish government in 1821. It is widely believed that America paid $5,000,000 to the Spanish as a result of this treaty; however this is a myth. No money was exchanged between the two governments; the U.S. received Florida and Oregon while ceding all Texas claims to Spain."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Territory

 

[ivan salis]

old buckaroo --the money was to be paid to spain for "loss / damages" done by illegal us settling of west florida -- in exchange for the Payment of "damages" --spain was to cede florida to the us --(in effect the us bought florida for $5,000,000 in gold )--- the gold on this vessel is not spain's money --as until it was turned over to spain in havana it was us govt money * -- however it never made it to havana to become"spain's money"---it sank enroute to havana (at the time a spanish colony --were it was to be transfered spanish control --paid) -- thus it is us govt money "lost at sea"--the turnover of florida was delayed until 1821 when a "second" shipment of $5.000.000 got to spanish hands

current value of the gold is about 193 million dollars .

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Ahoy, ivan!

It appears the money was to be paid to American citizens, not to Spain:

ARTICLE 11
The United States, exonerating Spain from all demands in future, on account of the claims of their Citizens, to which the renunciations herein contained extend, and considering them entirely cancelled, undertake to make satisfaction for the same, to an amount not exceeding Five Millions of Dollars. To ascertain the full amount and validity of those claims, a Commission, to consist of three Commissioners, Citizens of the United States, shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate; which Commission shall meet at the City of Washington, and within the space of three years, from the time of their first meeting, shall receive, examine and decide upon the amount and validity of all the claims included within the descriptions above mentioned. The said Commissioners shall take an oath or affirmation, to be entered on the record of their proceedings, for the faithful and diligent discharge of their duties; and in case of the death, sickness, or necessary absence of any such Commissioner, his place may be supplied by the appointment, as aforesaid, or by the President of the United States during the recess of the Senate, of another Commissioner in his stead. The said Commissioners shall be authorized to hear and examine on oath every question relative to the said claims, and to receive all suitable authentic testimony concerning the same. And the Spanish Government shall furnish all such documents and elucidations as may be in their possession, for the adjustment of the said claims, according to the principles of Justice, the Laws of Nations, and the stipulations of the Treaty between the two Parties of 27th October 1795; the said Documents to be specified, when demanded at the instance of the said Commissioners. The payment of such claims as may be admitted and adjusted by the said Commissioners, or the major part of them, to an amount not exceeding Five Millions of Dollars, shall be made by the United States, either immediately at their Treasury or by the creation of Stock bearing an interest of Six per Cent per annum, payable from the proceeds of Sales of public lands within the Territories hereby ceded to the United States, or in such other manner as the Congress of the United States may prescribe by Law. The records of the proceedings of the said Commissioners, together with the vouchers and documents produced before them, relative to the claims to be adjusted and decided upon by them, shall, after the close of their transactions, be deposited in the Department of State of the United States; and copies of them or any part of them, shall be furnished to the Spanish Government, if required, at the demand of the Spanish Minister in the United States.

http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/adamonis.htm

If your sources show something different, please be so kind as to share them.

I suggested the Captain of the vessel that wrecked would be courtmartialed because just about the most serious thing a captain can do is lose his ship. If, indeed, the loss was due to an Act of God, then the courtmartial would be the formal military investigation that could clear his record (although probably not his name; chances are he would windup on the beach anyway).

I am very confident that if anyone lost $5M in US government funds - in 1821 or 1921 or 2021 - there would be a complete and well documented investigation.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[ivan salis]

these funds were for the "payment" of damages money owed to the citizens of spain---(for loss of land and livelyhood of spanish settlers --since us settlers had effect "taken over " florida )-- by treaty the us took over its own citizens claims against spain in effect letting spain off the hook for any us citizens claims against them and "capped" the loss they had to pay out at at $5 million (in exchange for taking on the burden of the us citizens claim --florida was ceded to the us --- however money also had to be paid out on spanish claims of loss as well for their loss of land and livelyhood. (this was what the money shipment was for settlement of spanish claims against the us -- in a like amount 5 million )

 

[Darren in NC]

Darren in NC:

When I published my original research on the Brother Jonathan the wreck had not been found...And to the best of my knowledge that information was correct because when the wreck was found - before the salvors broke up in their dispute - the storied millions in US Army gold was not recovered. Because it was not there.

I believe you. Gary told me that they were disappointed with the wreck, but they did find some coins. Just not the amount that was rumored to be there.

 

[Darren in NC]

Darren,
Just so nobody wastes their time looking at Pegleg's old posts...This wasn't Pegleg's "Ghostship".
Aquanut

Thanks for the clarification. I always get this wreck and cooper's wreck mixed up

 

[mariner]

I spoke a couple of years ago to the guy who was operating the mini-sub that recovered the safe from the Brother Jonathan. I think they found about 1,000 gold coins on the wreck, but not the thousands that they had hoped for.

As for Peg Leg's ghost ship, he hoped that it was a very early Spanish wreck. Somebody claimed to have recovered what Peg Leg believed to be an Aztec calendar from it several years ago. As the personal representative for the current heir to Hernan Cortes, I had given Peggie permission to examine the wreck in the belief that it might have been one of Cortes'. He was getting the run around from the State of Florida, you might recall, and I was trying to open another door for him, though I am sure the State would have had a strong opinion about the situation if he had actually found anything there. God Bless, Peggie.

Let's all spare a thought for absent friends and former colleagues at Christmas.

Best wishes,

Mariner

 

[Salvor6]

Ivan what is your source for the claim that there is $5 mil in gold aboard that ship? Is it Frank Hudson's book? Also what is the name of the vessel that carried the gold? If it were so easy to locate, it would be long gone.

 

[FISHEYE]

I researched this wreck about 6 years ago.The story doesnt add up.the water depth around the suwanne river area is very shallow.near any of the reefs is like 3 feet or less deep.A schooner loaded down with gold is going to have a draft of 5 foot or more.It would have ran aground further out than where any of the reefs are now.I never found the name of the navy schooner nor the name of the gunboat that was escorting it.Most likely it was a secret mission as not to alert any pirates in the area.There were no survivors nor were there any coins found washed up on any of the beaches around there.Did the gunboat crew salvage it on thier own?The water is less than 9 feet 15 miles straight out from that river and theres no reefs out there.I even found charts dated all the way back to 1823.But there is a few wrecks(more than 8) that were on those charts that arent on any charts past 1890.I still have the charts and the aprox location of the wrecks.who has a boat in the gulf?

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Maybe it wasnt the suwanne river ...But another !

 

[Old Bookaroo]

When it's time to research a treasure wreck, seldom will one go wrong starting with "The Homewrecker." Almost fifty years since it was first published, John S. Potter, Jr.'s The Treasure Diver's Guide (New York: 1960; Revised 1972) remains the "one volume sunken treasure library."

Sure enough, here's what the 1972 edition says about:

The American Schooner "There have been several reports that a United States schooner carrying a part of the purchase price for the territory of Florida, bought from Spain the year before, was sunk in a hurricane of 1820 off the mouth of the Suwannee River. The money was said to be in gold. In view of the depth of only 30 feet and comparatively recent date it seems likely that efforts to recover the money - estimated at several million dollars - would have been at least partially successful.

"Despite rumors that gold coins have been found over the past ten years in this vicinity it would be a good idea to check government records concerning the Florida indemnity payment before investing money on any salvage attempt here." [pages 205-206]

There is a mention of this treasure and a purported recovery of part of it in F.L. Coffman's 1001 Lost, Buried or Sunken Treasures; Facts for Treasure Hunters (New York: 1957). Personally, I place no reliance on any information gleaned from Mr. Coffman's work.

I appreciate Ivan posting this story. I think it adds to the utility of any lead if the poster includes the source(s) - but that is an individual decision. I'm certainly not trying to be a buzzkill and spoil anyone's fun. I do believe in research and facts and treasure hunts based on solid information.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo