Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[somehiker]

Cropped and enlarged for easier reading.

Roy:

Although both Waltz and Weiser would surely have worked placers during their prospecting/mining days, the LDM was described as a hard rock mine, with a pit above and a tunnel below. No mention of silver. No mention of a tunnel at the bottom of the pit either, for that matter. I also doubt that any reporter would have had trouble pronouncing Waltz/Walzer or Weiser/Weisner. That good placer might be found in a creek downstream from a gold lode, or even from a silver deposit with "pockets" of gold is entirely possible in the case of the pit ridge though. I think the story of Waltz's carpenter and dry-washer is therefore credible, but I also believe that chapter applies to a time prior to his "finding" the actual mine. If his lode was found as he said it was, the discovery didn't involve panning or other forms of prospecting.

 

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[Racer53]

I would like to thank everyone for their insight. This all has been very interesting, and especially the mystery surrounding the Pit Mine. I've been been reading this forum for a few years now, trying to take everything in. i don't have anything to add, as I have yet made it to the Superstition's and my research is limited to following along here and a few books I have. I do have a couple questions though. If someone has ore that is believed to be from the Lost Dutchman mine (whether from the pit mine or from somewhere else) why not have it tested and reveal the results for all to see? The skeptic in me says a match hasn't been found. I understand that if a match was found in the Pit Mine, for obvious reasons the participants wouldn't want to come forward. But, it seems theses gentleman are talking and if you're in the area it's no big secret. However, for example, say the participants claimed it came from somewhere legal to dig irregardless of where it was really dug. Then prove it with matching gold specimens. Would they have to prove to authorities or the the public the location of their find? As a side note, I enjoyed the Mysteries of the Superstition Mountain videos. In the Nugget of Truth video, did I Hear Ron Feldman saiy the Pit Mine is the Silver Chief, or did I misunderstand?

 

[azdave35]

I would like to thank everyone for their insight. This all has been very interesting, and especially the mystery surrounding the Pit Mine. I've been been reading this forum for a few years now, trying to take everything in. i don't have anything to add, as I have yet made it to the Superstition's and my research is limited to following along here and a few books I have. I do have a couple questions though. If someone has ore that is believed to be from the Lost Dutchman mine (whether from the pit mine or from somewhere else) why not have it tested and reveal the results for all to see? The skeptic in me says a match hasn't been found. I understand that if a match was found in the Pit Mine, for obvious reasons the participants wouldn't want to come forward. But, it seems theses gentleman are talking and if you're in the area it's no big secret. However, for example, say the participants claimed it came from somewhere legal to dig irregardless of where it was really dug. Then prove it with matching gold specimens. Would they have to prove to authorities or the the public the location of their find? As a side note, I enjoyed the Mysteries of the Superstition Mountain videos. In the Nugget of Truth video, did I Hear Ron Feldman saiy the Pit Mine is the Silver Chief, or did I misunderstand?

what makes you think the ore hasnt been tested ?

 

[cactusjumper]

I would like to thank everyone for their insight. This all has been very interesting, and especially the mystery surrounding the Pit Mine. I've been been reading this forum for a few years now, trying to take everything in. i don't have anything to add, as I have yet made it to the Superstition's and my research is limited to following along here and a few books I have. I do have a couple questions though. If someone has ore that is believed to be from the Lost Dutchman mine (whether from the pit mine or from somewhere else) why not have it tested and reveal the results for all to see? The skeptic in me says a match hasn't been found. I understand that if a match was found in the Pit Mine, for obvious reasons the participants wouldn't want to come forward. But, it seems theses gentleman are talking and if you're in the area it's no big secret. However, for example, say the participants claimed it came from somewhere legal to dig irregardless of where it was really dug. Then prove it with matching gold specimens. Would they have to prove to authorities or the the public the location of their find? As a side note, I enjoyed the Mysteries of the Superstition Mountain videos. In the Nugget of Truth video, did I Hear Ron Feldman saiy the Pit Mine is the Silver Chief, or did I misunderstand?

Racer,

Welcome to our little race.

My guess is that a personal friend might have done any assay that was performed. Second to that, the ore might have been claimed to have come from a legal source. How would anyone know?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Racer53]

Good morning gentleman. I would venture to say it has been tested. And that is kind of where I'm going with my thought process. If it has and it matches, it seems as if the group; or at least part of the group would want the notoriety of finding the Dutchmans gold. And yes, it could be from a legal source which makes the secrecy even more intriguing.

 

[audigger53]

[QUOTE=somehiker;
Does the IRS have a statute of limitations for this sort of situation ? Yes or no though,

There is no Statute of Limitations on Income Tax Fraud.
Back in 1972 I was working as a Warehouseman For a furniture store and one of the other guys was moonlighting even though he was a lawyer for the IRS. He was chuckling all night long and at the break time, I asked him what was so funny. He told me this story. A guy had a business and pasted away in the late 50's and they didn't catch it then. His wife had just passed away and they found out that he had "Never" paid any income taxes, ever! He stated that the kids were going to be upset as after fines and taxes they wouldn't be getting as much as they thought they would. Me Well that's OK, but not that funny. Him The funny part is that he sold his half of the business to his partner and he is still alive, and it turns out he has never paid any income tax either. "We got him!" and he laughed.
Murder, Income Tax Fraud, and cheating on your spouse, none of those have a Statue of Limitations.

 

[somehiker]

I have also assumed that samples of any gold ore said to have been taken from the pit mine had been tested at some point in time.
Same goes for the Kochera ore, since Ron has said publicly that he has no doubt the Kochera ore came from the pit mine, AND that the pit mine IS the Silver Chief.
However I suggest that it would also be a good idea to have the same samples tested by an independent assayer unfamiliar with this story or the area from which the samples were taken. Perhaps the same source used by Dr. Glover and using the same method as was used to test the Waltz LDM ore.

 

[Cubfan64]

I have also assumed that samples of any gold ore said to have been taken from the pit mine had been tested at some point in time.
Same goes for the Kochera ore, since Ron has said publicly that he has no doubt the Kochera ore came from the pit mine, AND that the pit mine IS the Silver Chief.
However I suggest that it would also be a good idea to have the same samples tested by an independent assayer unfamiliar with this story or the area from which the samples were taken. Perhaps the same source used by Dr. Glover and using the same method as was used to test the Waltz LDM ore.

I've only been following all this leisurely but I don't remember Ron publicly saying that about the Kochera Ore - can you expound on that?

As far as independent and unbiased analysis, that's ALWAYS a good practice when trying to confirm data so I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[cactusjumper]

I have been saying for a number of years now, that the Kochera Ore came from the Pit Mine. Anyone interested could easily look that up.

 

[Oroblanco]

View attachment 1533332

Cropped and enlarged for easier reading.

Roy:

Although both Waltz and Weiser would surely have worked placers during their prospecting/mining days, the LDM was described as a hard rock mine, with a pit above and a tunnel below. No mention of silver. No mention of a tunnel at the bottom of the pit either, for that matter. I also doubt that any reporter would have had trouble pronouncing Waltz/Walzer or Weiser/Weisner. That good placer might be found in a creek downstream from a gold lode, or even from a silver deposit with "pockets" of gold is entirely possible in the case of the pit ridge though. I think the story of Waltz's carpenter and dry-washer is therefore credible, but I also believe that chapter applies to a time prior to his "finding" the actual mine. If his lode was found as he said it was, the discovery didn't involve panning or other forms of prospecting.

Thank you Wayne, for taking the time to crop and enlarge the relevant section. Agree with your statements completely. I am not taking the stance that this 1880 report is Jacob Waltz, however it COULD be. A rich placer might well exist close to or even directly below a rich lode that produced the placer.

On the IRS having no statute of limitations, while this is true they are bound only to the past three years, if they should find something wrong in that time period they are free to go back many more years, with really no limit as they have the excuse of having found issues already. So if the 'Pit' team has been 100% honest about their taxes for the last three years, they are pretty much home free on that angle, seven years for the other aspects of legal risks. Plus as Cactusjumper pointed out, it could always be claimed that the ore had come from a legal claim somewhere or even traded with another prospector unless they were actually caught hauling it out of the mine.


I think I need more coffee...

 

[coazon de oro]

I have been saying for a number of years now, that the Kockera Ore came from the Pit Mine. Anyone interested could easily look that up.

Howdy Joe,

The fact that you have been saying it for a number of years does not prove that the Kochera ore came from the Pit Mine. Kochera's ore got spread around, it seems more likely that someone working the Pit Mine, flashed some Kochera ore, and claimed it came from the Pit mine. The fact that none of the Dutchman's clues fit into the Pit Mine, and the fact that the Dutchman could not have been mining the Silver Chief at the same time others were legaly taking silver out of it, seems to bust that theory.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

I've only been following all this leisurely but I don't remember Ron publicly saying that about the Kochera Ore - can you expound on that?

As far as independent and unbiased analysis, that's ALWAYS a good practice when trying to confirm data so I wholeheartedly agree.

From about 8 minutes in.....

 

[somehiker]

Howdy Joe,

The fact that you have been saying it for a number of years does not prove that the Kochera ore came from the Pit Mine. Kochera's ore got spread around, it seems more likely that someone working the Pit Mine, flashed some Kochera ore, and claimed it came from the Pit mine. The fact that none of the Dutchman's clues fit into the Pit Mine, and the fact that the Dutchman could not have been mining the Silver Chief at the same time others were legaly taking silver out of it, seems to bust that theory.

Homar

Exactly Homar.
Far too many timeline problems with so much overlap of the pit ridge mines history and Waltz's.
But it is possible that those working the pit mine did recover some gold, since the report of 1883 mentions the presence of pockets of gold within the Silver Chief.
Doesn't say anything about a cache.

 

[Cubfan64]

From about 8 minutes in.....

I did watch that a few days ago but the only thing I came away with from what Ron said is that he has no doubt that the Kochera Ore came from the east side of the mountains and was found out in the Malapais area because the Spanish lost the saddlebag at some point on a trip out of the mountains. I guess one can read between the lines and it's not a great stretch to believe that he's saying it came out of the Silver Chief mine but he doesn't exactly come out and say that.

Joe has been saying the Kochera Ore came out of the Silver Chief for more than a few years, but unless I'm mistaken his belief is very different from what Ron is saying. Joe - correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that the Ore Ron possesses as "Kochera Ore" came directly out of the Pit Mine and was never found out on Malapais.

Those are 2 different things. Maybe I've been wrong about what Joe has suggested - hopefully he can correct me.

One other thing - does anyone else find it a little odd that Ron would suggest that the best way for the Spanish to leave the mountains from the Roger's Trough area would be to go out through the mountains to the N/NW all the way to the Salt River? I suppose if they were transporting the ore down the Salt River or processing it along the river that may make sense, but to just get out of the mountains and head back to Mexico doesn't it seem like it would be easier to just head south directly out of the mountains?

 

[cactusjumper]

Howdy Joe,

The fact that you have been saying it for a number of years does not prove that the Kochera ore came from the Pit Mine. Kochera's ore got spread around, it seems more likely that someone working the Pit Mine, flashed some Kochera ore, and claimed it came from the Pit mine. The fact that none of the Dutchman's clues fit into the Pit Mine, and the fact that the Dutchman could not have been mining the Silver Chief at the same time others were legaly taking silver out of it, seems to bust that theory.

Homar

Hello Homar,

I'm aware that what I say proves nothing. Just trying to say I've been ahead of the curve, so to speak, on this story for a number of years now. At this point I'm starting to forget more than most folks know. That excludes you, of course.

People still keep telling me things that I'm supposed to keep to myself, but I no longer trust myself to remember that detail. This is fair warning to everyone not to tell me anything you want me to keep to myself.

Hoping all is well up there and you are spending more time by the fire.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Hope you are staying warm and dreaming of warmer climes.

"Joe has been saying the Kochera Ore came out of the Silver Chief for more than a few years, but unless I'm mistaken his belief is very different from what Ron is saying. Joe - correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that the Ore Ron possesses as "Kochera Ore" came directly out of the Pit Mine and was never found out on Malapais."

You are exactly correct there. Always glad to see you still pay attention to me.

I have told the story of the two men who came to my house and told me about making a trip to the Pit Mine. The one did not really want to admit to that trip, but when his friend said "........you remember, don't you......." he fessed up. One of those men took all of the pictures of the Kochera Ore. When I asked him, directly, if he thought that ore came from the Pit Mine, his reply was "I know it did."

Just to clear up some of this legal talk that's been going on here, these guys are not stupid. For them to be coming forward with all these hints, at this time, there is nothing left to go after them for. I have always said if I found such ore, I would buy a local mine and find "a new vein". I would have it processed, sold and claim the income. Who's to say where that ore came from?

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

In the " Nugget of Truth " video , Mr. Feldman said how the Perfil map could be attached to many places in the Supes .
How this would be possible ? Is there in every place that could match to Perfil map , a rock ( human ) face with a tunnel below ? I don't think so .

 

[cactusjumper]

In the " Nugget of Truth " video , Mr. Feldman said how the Perfil map could be attached to many places in the Supes .
How this would be possible ? Is there in every place that could match to Perfil map , a rock ( human ) face with a tunnel below ? I don't think so .

Marius,

Ron has been all over the Superstitions. Not many, still living, who can make that claim......but they are out there. What about you?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

"Just to clear up some of this legal talk that's been going on here, these guys are not stupid. For them to be coming forward with all these hints, at this time, there is nothing left to go after them for. I have always said if I found such ore, I would buy a local mine and find "a new vein". I would have it processed, sold and claim the income. Who's to say where that ore came from? "

I certainly can't answer that question Joe......maybe the test results could ?

Regards:Wayne

 

[coazon de oro]

Hello Homar,

I'm aware that what I say proves nothing. Just trying to say I've been ahead of the curve, so to speak, on this story for a number of years now. At this point I'm starting to forget more than most folks know. That excludes you, of course.

People still keep telling me things that I'm supposed to keep to myself, but I no longer trust myself to remember that detail. This is fair warning to everyone not to tell me anything you want me to keep to myself.

Hoping all is well up there and you are spending more time by the fire.

Take care,

Joe

Howy Joe,

Yes I have been spending a lot of time by a fake fire, it's still warm though. Hope you are doing good also.

I thought I would make you spill the beans. It almost worked, but I see that you are still honorable with your sources.

Homar