Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

[Shadoefax]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

Apparently, Robert L. Garman believed the true name to be "Walzer". In his book "Mystery Gold of the Superstitions" (pg. 34, paperback edition, 3rd printing 1980) he wrote:

Along about 1871, Jacob Walzer and Jacob Weiser or the two Jakes as the pair were sometimes called, set out from where they were then staying near the Mexican settlements at Florence, Arizona on a prospecting trip into the Superstition Mountains.

The name, it seems, is attributed to Herman Petrach as indicated at the end of the chapter (pg. 37) where Garman wrote:

Author's note: The story of the two Jakes and the Lost Dutchman Mine was mostly told to me from time to time over a period of years by my old friend and fellow prospector, Herman Petrach.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

Once again i cant say for sure but Highham gave credit for his information in his 1946 book basced on personel interviews with these people. JWWalker, Gus Hirshfeld, Frank TAlkire, Pearl Fricker Vernon Clark, Herman Petrash Sidney Osborn, CJ Arthur and, WGRinnard. It is probably one of these people who gave the walzer name to Highham. Herman Petrash can be left out because he wrote a letter to the city of phoenix saying where Jacob Waltz had been burried and he used the name waltz so he knew the right name.Mrs Fricker also wrote letters usingthe name waltz so she knew the right name to.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

Mr. Johnson,

Higham states that Jacob Walzer can be found in the 1864 U.S. Census.

There are many, many people who claimed they knew Jacob Waltz, after his death. Frank Alkire is not one of them.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Tuberale]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

i got just one question .. if all these so called books and writers had the facts .. then why did no one find the mine ...?

i saw the mine .. no one has been to that mine in as much as a 100 years or more .. uinless you count those at the bottom ....

Not all writers have all the facts. As apparently not all posters do either. That's the purpose of this forum, I believe.

Mine? Really? Adits, cross-shafts, secondary ventilation shaft? My understanding was this lead was more of a ledge, prospect hole, pocket, or something of the like. Another reason to question anyone's use of "lost mine" in a legend.

I have a cross-reference index. I have mention of at least 500 "lost mines", some of which have been found. Not many. The people who are supposed to have "lost" them didn't consider them "found." Many were by complete accident, picking up a pretty rock here or there.

Ultimately, it's a question of semantics: the meanings of words. Unless people continue to write about lost mines, and others choose to search for them, that part of history becomes lost.

Recently, for example, I came across a reference to gold being discovered by Mrs. Ainsworth, a pioneer woman in 1845/6, in California. She wrote about the discovery in her diary, which was reprinted in The Oregonian newspaper, and saved by an early curator of the Oregon Historical Society in a scrapbook. She was not given credit for the first gold found in California, even though she was able to go back to the site, work the prospect/placer, and removed several thousand dollars worth of gold from it. One wonders how much they were able to remove in the 3 years they worked there. She and her new husband took the gold and moved to Oregon, where they also mined and lived very long and productive lives.

Curious thing: Mrs. Ainsworth never thought her placer was lost, knew exactly where she was although she had never been there before, and was easily able to find the site again.

She also documented (wrote) that she was warned not to say anything about her find at Sutter's Fort, as it would affect on-going US negotiations with Mexico about buying California. A discovery of gold would have affected the purchase price.

Just another case of history being much more interesting than what is usually written in history books.

 

[wwjohnson]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

I dont know who told Charles Highham what, just that he listed those peoples in his book as the ones who gave him information for the book. Herman Petrash at some time knew waltz right name and how it is spelled. Maybe earlier on he thought it was waltzer and later on changed it, i don't know.
I dont know if one of these people told Highham about the walzer on the 1864 census or if Highham found it himself.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

Mr. Johnson,

Anything is possible, but I believe most of the stories by people who "knew" Jacob Waltz can be attributed to the "Hell I Was There" (Elmer Keith) syndrome.

Other stories are made up by people trying to bolster their own fictional account by attributing the story to well known historical figures. The Frank Alkire story is a wonderful example. There is no evidence, that I have been able to find, that links Frank Alkire to Jacob Waltz or the LDM legend, yet many modern-day authors and quasi-historians continue to make up stories to support the original, likely, fictional story.

That is probably the most suspect piece of (widely accepted) historical fiction in the LDM legend. As I asked when I first heard the story being floated on Peter's defunct site; Has anyone ever seen the story written in Alkire's own hand? Even though we were provided with where such evidence could be found, along with personal accounts said to be received from Alkire's children, it was all made up.

With serious research, I believe most of these stories can be proven to be pure fantasy. That's the problem with too much detail and quotes from people who did prolific writing of their own personal history, such as Frank Alkire.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[wwjohnson]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

As i said in a last post, I don't know who told Highham what, only that Highham listed those people as peoples he personaly interviewed for his book in 1946. Was just trying to answer the question where Barney barnard and Highham may have got the name walzer. That was the question I think ? wasn't trying to say who said what to him. I agree with cubfan and think Herman Petrash did write somewhere the walzer name but later on called wim Waltz.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

who really cares ...?


dose it really matter to the legend ?

NO ...

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

let me ask you a out right brillant question ..

OK .. if no one found the mine .. who really knew where it was ?



ok do you get it yet .. NO one found the mine


no one knew where it was ..

if thats the case .. where dose that leave the legend .. back at waltz telling us about shoting the Peralta at there camp site


OK why dose waltz not know where the mine is ...

because the peralta talked alot thhat night at the camp .. but they never told Waltz the location of the mine it self .. just the local area .. he had no idea where the mine was ...

yes he had gold .. from the sacks on the mules after shoting the Peralta ..

show me one peice of evidence anywhere that proves Waltz him self knew where the mine was ...?

show me one peice of evidence that waltz had any gold that was not in the sacks the peralta had at the time he shot them ...


show me one peice of evidence that waltz had any idea where the real mine was ..?

he said a lot things ,, but where is the eivdence he even had a mine or knew where it reall was

 

[Javaone]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

let me ask you a out right brillant question ..

OK .. if no one found the mine .. who really knew where it was ?

Well... You BB. Of course.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

let me ask you a out right brillant question ..

OK .. if no one found the mine .. who really knew where it was ?

Well... You BB. Of course.

your correct and i will tell you why .. because i did not use one peice of evidence that was from Waltz him self ...

see my point is .. it dose not matter if Waltz told the bed side confession to dick homles if it was true, then waltz account if true about the peralta prove the mine exist before waltz .. even if the Peralta were working the mine .. it did not mean the mine was founded by them ether .. so the mine was older then the Peralta as well .. if thats the case where did the peralta learn about the mine .. the only place left .. the Tayopa /Peralta stone , how do i know .. the tayopa legend predated the Peralta and when decoded correctly pinpointed the mine and told us things Waltz did not know about the mine it self .. fact is clear .. Waltz never found the mine !


i found it .. waltz had all the clues ,, just no idea where the mine really was ..

dont belive me .. take what waltz knew and go out there and look for your self .. you better pack a big lunch ...lol your going to be out there a few life times ...lol

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

Evening BB: A question, the number 247 burros , mules, or there has been bandied about. Does anyone have an idea how many men and support materiel that would take to handle them?

Remember the actual mining people are also to be counted in there. This makes a fairly respectable amount of men.

This eliminates 'any' Indian attack,. and of course Jacob killing all of them.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

Evening BB: A question, the number 247 burros , mules, or there has been bandied about. Does anyone have an idea how many men and support materiel that would take to handle them?

Remember the actual mining people are also to be counted in there. This makes a fairly respectable amount of men.

This eliminates 'any' Indian attack,. and of course Jacob killing all of them.

Don Jose de La Mancha

the jesuit were stated to have 240 mules loaded with treasure and hidden in the supers .. if your running a mule train it would still take a few dozen jesuits at lest .. if not 2 or 3 dozen .. but you know as well as i do faith makes people do funny things ..i figerd this out before RD ,, see the fact is IMHO the dutch mine or ma is not the same location the stones pinpoint a number of diffrent location sites and the two sites in question are two diffrent sites all together .. and the event of Waltz account has very little to do with the chruch treasure other then they are coded into the stones ...
. do i think the treasure is still there .. Yes

why because the man in 1959
...

i think Waltz only killed the 3 Peralta .. i dont think he had anything to do with the mule train i dont think Waltz or the Peralta had anything to do with the jesuits dirrectly ..

if you rember my statements .. look at the Tayopa letter .. it out lines a few diffrent events in sets of details .. yet some of the more logical patterns are missing peices when they should not be ..


see logic tells us Waltz never saw the mine it self .. imposable ... he only herd about the mine from the Peralta . they knew about the stones .. how we can only guess at this point but they clearly did know about the stones .. but as i have pointed out the stones were made in the years of 1640 -1646 the same time span as the Jesuit Relations.. few related the events of the beaver wars to be jesuit related or have anything to do with the tayopa letters .. but in fact they do ..

the fact remain the jesuits did record news and tribeal movements and local news and it was collected and sten back to be writen in a jesuit news paper and records called the Jesuit Relations the beaver wars took place in norther new york and coverd a larger area of tribeal lands .. yet the jesuits tried to befriend the tribes and stop them from frighting .. wish most of their efferts were recorded .. much in the same format the the stones decoded translation is in ..
there is no question about it what so ever iMHO .. the jesuits did create these stones with help from a few others ..

is there any evidence of this .. yes . the tayopa letters them selfs ...

what is the main reason for the Tayopa letters . a inventory with hidden codes to record data and pass it back to the the jesuit leaders ..they were in fact collecting data and recording events and locations and codeing it so the tribes and others would have no idea of what was hidden within , it really is funny how how the same group the jesuits were doing the same thing the same way in new york as they were in tayopa ...


the beaver wars took place in 1648 ..over the fur trade with the Iroquois Confederation,,

but the interesting part to me is here is the jesuits recording history and events in the same way as they do on the stones and the tayopa letters .. at basically the same point in history ,..

the point i am trying to make here is the jesuits span the beaver wars area that coverd most of the great lakes and north eastern states the war it self may have broken out in 1648 but the jesuits were there for more then 10 s before the war started in 1648 .. this is the same time frame as the tayopa letters were created .. i beleive some where in the jesuit relations .,. is a coded message about tayopa ..

and just the fact we see this same relationship in the stones and letters as it is in the jesuit relations ... time frame ..

the jesuit coverd most of the new world at this point in time and now we see how the jesuits move their data cross the 6 nations so fast .. they were useing the native tribes with out the native tribes knowing it because the data was coded as is the stones and letters in the same types of codes ...

do i have to have evidence of this .. no in fact the details them selfs reflect a clear pattern .. of jesuit activeities threw out the new world ...,

so when i say the jesuits created the stones .. i am not guessing

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

let me try to explain what this evidence proves ... one the jesuits were in fact very active in the new world within the years the tayopa letters were writern, not only were active they in fact coded messages and sent them back east to where the coded data would then be added to the jesuit relations.. so the fact the tayopa letters are coded conferms they are real ! guess what so are the stones ,, the Tayopa /Peralta stones the letters by them selfs have no real way to dirrectly link them to the tayopa stones but when you know why they were coded and the fact that there is in fact other records of the jesuits codeing this same kind of data in the same years within the new world logically tells us the tayopa letters and the stones are in fact jesuit and real .. and that my translation is in fact correct !




so you dont want me here at the site .. you put me on ignore .. i got a lot things i could be doing for people that honestly do thank me for going out of my way to help them and i would much rather see my skills not wasted on people that dont undewr stand me or my skills .. lets see if the ignore is as usefull as you all think it is ..


you dont need me here ...i have real research to do ..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

Who are you talking to ya would be quartermaster striker? he he hehe I have never had you on ignore.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

Who are you talking to ya would be quartermaster striker? he he hehe I have never had you on ignore.


Don Jose de La Mancha

sorry i was never a striker

with my test corse i picked what i wanted to do ..QM was my second choice ,, riding the waves was my frist ...lol


and no i am not talking about the ocean ...lol

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

DD

you just cant walk away when ever you want .. this is Treasure hunting 101 ..

and we are honerd to have you at this site .. just because we bang head around here dose not mean we dont care about each other .... come back and play .... we were enjoying your topic and you bring good things to the table ...


lesson learned .. start over and i will step back and give you some room .. you would take it any way ...lol

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

the topic Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

OK imho .. killers have a logical reason for what they do .. ether self forfillment or self gain ..

waltz would have had a reason if he killed anyone on the so called bed confession list .. the fact there was a list or a confession makes it very interesting few killers confess unless faced with dead ether by the hand of law or sickness .. Waltz was not being questioned by the law enforcement .. he in fact dieing and i fully believe he knew this at the time of the confession ...logically there is a few factors that show up in the confession that tell us the confession is true ..

as i pointed out in a true confession .. the killer no matter how nice a preson he is or looks to others . he will confess in patterns .. one who he killed . how many .. when where and how he killed is victums and some times in some case "why " Waltz dose in fact explain some of the killings in great detail and dose tell us some of the patterns of his killings ..

now back long ago we did not under stand what a serial killer was and they were just as much a part of their own time as our serial killers are today in modern times . they have evoled with time .. as histroy and culture evoles so do the skills and patterns of the serial killer

lets tak one event from the list and i will go threw the event with my insight and explain the event as it is ...

Waltz frist tells us how he got to the camp site .. he gives us full details even if we do not under stand where the details are takeing place within the mt range .. . he next tell us how he got there and who the victums are . and in what order they were killed and what took place that triggerd the killings . he explains their reactions as well as his own reactions to what is going on at the time .. for a serial killer its about actions and what triggers the event . he may not remember the event it self untill after it is over ..

in Waltz case he give us details . and dose remeber the event after it takes place .. some serial killers do not ..

in this case he tell us the order of the victums ..
the killings are killings of oppertunity ..
Waltz clearly states this in his confession ..

now he could have said he shot all 3 and left it at that .. the account dose not state what would be easly made up if the confession was a made up story ..

he tells us the events as they happen .. not just as it would be in a well told camp fire story .. the 3rd victum .. defines the patterns are noot logically plained out .. he shots the 3rd victum yet he waits for the 3rd victum to come back ... this is the actions of a plained serial killer .. and the event is already in play .. when and were the last victum is killed no longer matters to the killer .. it is a matter of time and waiting .. and Waltz dose tell us he waits for the 3rd victum .. these patterns are very hard to fake . and when someone is investgating a set of serial killings . the patterns are much diffrent from a normal killer ..

see even if Waltz had never killed anyone in the past it dose not mean that he could not become a serial killer when faced with the right conditions to trigger this type beheivor..


we do have a full set of details of Waltz's past yet then we do and we really dont under stand what we do have ...

Waltz tells us more then we know ...

what am i trying to explain ...

Waltz list his victums .. from a starting event , at the Peralta camp site and then details the victums as well as his other events that cause the death of 7 others .. in no way is the account seen as a forced confession .. Waltz account is in fact the oppisite ...and he tells Holmes this threw out the account in diffrent ways ..

now if we look at just the frist set of killings within the patterns of the list .. what do we see in the patterns ..

he is faced with ethical choice . he makes his choice and killes two of them and then waits for the 3rd . and by the time the 3rd preson gets there he kills him in cold blood ,he has evoled waiting for the 3rd preson.. plaining and pictureing the event as he waits for it to happen..

this is a pattern that Waltz will not be able to stop if the same conditions show up latter on in his life time .. look at the list .. the patterns have become part of his nature and he will remain a trigger any time these feelings and patterns are set in motion ..

after he realizes what he has done .. he distences him self from the event.. by returning to Phoenix in fact he dose repete this same pattern in another event within the list ..more then once and the pattern is not always the same with all the events ..
we are not looking at a stroy .. we are looking at account confessed ,, not the smoothest told story .. just a confession as it was told ...

now the topic is about the killings .. but we can also see some details and patterns within the evidence that tells us some insight into the over all account ....things about Waltz Logic behind the events at play and what triggers the events and why ..

this tells us a lot about the account and the patterns that take place with in the acount and the order that they appear ...

now the topic is about the killings them self and the man in question .. is he a killer . or not ... IMHO yes with out any dout what so ever , these patterns can not be faked .. and if the account was nothing more then a well told camp fire story .. the patterns would not hold true and the killers confession would be come nothing more the a stroy ..

in these events we do see the patterns and the details only a real serial killer could have give in a account ..

IMHO yes Waltz was a nice old man and good friend to many around him and helped others with a cherrfull out going presonality .. but .. deep in side his inner being rest a trigger waiting to go off , and if you were in front of him when the trigger went off you would have been on that list ... this is often the case in one type of serial killers .. Waltz fits this type 100% ...in the inpolsive serial killers .. a trigger is like haveing the hammer pulled back and the playing spin the chamber .. when the killer is normal and with out the conditions to pull the trigger the chamber spins free and no one knows how loaded the gun is ,till the right conditions are set in motion , in this case the chamber stops spining and at any time Waltz could have gone off and killed anyone at any give time that those conditions are set in motion .. the victums are int he early part of the list all shot .. impolsive act ..now look at the so called Nephew event .. dirrect shot to the forhead . not only inpolsive .. but dirrect .. he has presonal feelings to the victum .. this pattern is a fession not a stroy ..
and see how waltz details the evnt after he shot the nephew .. it presonal .....

when the other victums are not ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

BB, you posted --> ,, riding the waves was my frist ...lol

I don't get it ? blushing

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

BB, you posted --> ,, riding the waves was my frist ...lol

I don't get it ? blushing

Don Jose de La Mancha

women in the navy are called waves

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Jacob Waltz the "Killer"??

BB yer kidding of course?

Don Jose de La Mancha (el celibate saint who has no idea about your remark??)