JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Crow]

I have only ever seen star bits with four cutting edges, but would like to see one with five, that would be kind of neat! BTW not to derail the topic here but a lot of drilling by the early prospectors and miners in the southwest was done with plain vanilla flat iron bits made by a blacksmith. You can drill a nice round hole with a flat bit, by the exact same method used with the star bits (rotating a quarter turn with each hammer blow) although most people today would not dream of using such slow and labor intensive methods, it was the 'only show in town'. Drill tools were used and re-used until they grew too short to use, have a collection of them myself mostly too short for use, found at old mines. If needed I can try my hand at photographing them and then posting it, but they are pretty ordinary looking iron bars with one end flattened to a chisel point, the other end mushroomed from hammering.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

Simple flat point rock drill: <NOT from my collection but exactly similar>
View attachment 1059006

Star bit drill with four cutting edges, which I think is more modern than the Spanish colonial period but not sure:

View attachment 1059007

Oro hats of to you also for the fine post.

Crow

 

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[doc-d]

I have a star chisel……did not know what is was until this post…..very cool….makes sense also……
Although slow, with some HE packed into the hole, you can move much…...

 

[releventchair]

With two man teams they got through it faster but at greater cost per hole(?). One to turn drill after each strike. Some accounts there was a spoon on a stick to clear hole. Must have been hazards of flying iron pieces from undressed mushroom end and flying fragments of rock. Then too how many hands holding the drill were struck by a hammer?
Here is some writing, one man per drill explaining greater width at chisel tip, and a need for constant reworking of bits by an onsite smithy and another mention of spooning debris..
Bodie History: Drilling & Blasting in the Bodie Mines

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ref\v VChair you earned three coppas coffee.

 

[deducer]

 

[sailaway]

The reason for posting the Spanish Rock Crusher picture was everyone has shown Drag stones but no one had shown the rolling type of rock Crusher. They also had a sea-saw type rock crusher. Which was a large round rock like the revolving crusher that rolled up and down a pivoting flat rock that had a angled rock under the center for it to rock on.

My Grandfather used to have one of the round stone wheels of a rock crusher but it was so heavy it sank into the ground at his house.

 

[sailaway]

I found this representation of a rocker crusher in a Spanish archive

 

[somehiker]

I found this representation of a rocker crusher in a Spanish archive
View attachment 1061004

Recognized and known....SH.

Is this the world's oldest known protractor?

[url]http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1107/1107.4946.pdf
[/URL]

 

[sailaway]

Members of the archaeological community remain skeptical. Kate Spence, a Cambridge archaeologist who specializes in ancient Egyptian architecture, cites the lack of precision of the artifact's decorative markings as proof that the Egyptians would never have used the object as a measuring instrument, stating succinctly: "When the Egyptians want to be precise, they are."

Notice I used the word representation of a rocker crusher. The Spanish story was talking about how the old Spanish used the the idea for the rocker from the Egyptians only the wheel was not fastened but rolled on the flat rock. It was very labor intensive and not used when there were other methods besides manual labor. The one I saw had a square hole in the center it so a lever could be placed in it on either side to roll it, when it got to center the flat rock would rock over and gravity helped roll the round crusher. Not a job I would want. Also notice in your links that it does not claim to be a protractor but just an opinion of one author. We do know that the Egyptian Pyramids have the number Pi built into them because the method for laying out the site was done with a wheeled measuring device, but was it done on purpose or just because the wheel was round?

 

[somehiker]

Notice I used the word representation of a rocker crusher. The Spanish story was talking about how the old Spanish used the the idea for the rocker from the Egyptians only the wheel was not fastened but rolled on the flat rock. It was very labor intensive and not used when there were other methods besides manual labor. The one I saw had a square hole in the center it so a lever could be placed in it on either side to roll it, when it got to center the flat rock would rock over and gravity helped roll the round crusher. Not a job I would want. Also notice in your links that it does not claim to be a protractor but just an opinion of one author. We do know that the Egyptian Pyramids have the number Pi built into them because the method for laying out the site was done with a wheeled measuring device, but was it done on purpose or just because the wheel was round?

Can you post a link to one of the sites where the rocker-roller crusher is discussed ?
The Egyptians used counterbalanced lever mechanisms as one way to move water for irrigation. They and many in other countries still do.
The object in the exhibit may or may not be a protractor, but in any case it is one piece. The round part could never roll along the straight part.
The Egyptians knew Pi x diameter gave circumference. By counting the revolutions of a wheel along a surface, they could calculate distance without the use of rod or cord lengths. There are many variations of the same thing available today. Most millstones have a square holel in the center, so that they can be rotated against the stationary stone by a mechanism with a square post. I doubt they would be suitable for crushing rock from the typical mine though, since the heavy crusher stone would have to be hoisted each time ore was to be added.

 

[somehiker]

It's an arrastre, but a more modern one with grinding wheels made from concrete filled iron rings (voladoras ).
These would last a lot longer than the drag stones used during the Jesuit era, and even today where drag stones are used or arrastres located in remote areas or away from a constant water source.

 

[somehiker]

Ok-OK...

From now on, I will refer to this type of crusher as a " Chilean Mill" .

 

[sailaway]

somehiker posted :
I doubt they would be suitable for crushing rock from the typical mine though, since the heavy crusher stone would have to be hoisted each time ore was to be added.

Why would they have to lift the stone to add or remove ore? the stone rolled so you remove or add ore from one side then roll the crusher stone to the other side and repeat. no lifting necessary.

The earliest form of mill consisted of a small stone mortar with a stone pestle. But there was a development in milling methods, and the next consisted of a block of rock, with a slight depression in the top for the ore, which was pulverized by means of a heavy rubbing stone. A still later development, possibly belonging to the time of the Ptolemies, 322-330 B.C., was a mill somewhat like the arastra which may still be seen in California and Mexico. It consisted of a block of rock several feet in diameter and circular in outline, in the top of which was a shallow depression to receive the ore. The pestle consisted of a large spherical or cylindrical block of the same kind of rock. The finely broken ore was placed in the depression, and the movable block was rolled around over it until it was reduced to the desired fineness. The mill was essentially a huge shallow stone mortar in which the pestle was rolled by slaves.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Popul...ng_and_Use_of_Metals_by_the_Ancient_Egyptians

The Romans used hydraulic mining methods on a large scale to prospect for the veins of ore, especially a now obsolete form of mining known as hushing. It involved building numerous aqueducts to supply water to the minehead where it was stored in large reservoirs and tanks. When a full tank was opened, the wave of water sluiced away the overburden to expose the bedrock underneath and any gold veins. The rock was then attacked by fire-setting to heat the rock, which would be quenched with a stream of water. The thermal shock cracked the rock, enabling it to be removed, aided by further streams of water from the overhead tanks. The methods had been developed by the Romans in Spain in 25 AD to exploit large alluvial gold deposits, the largest site being at Las Medulas, where seven long aqueducts were built to tap local rivers and to sluice the deposits. Spain was one of the most important mining regions.
Roman techniques were not limited to surface mining. They followed the ore veins underground once opencast mining was no longer feasible. At Dolaucothi they stoped out the veins, and drove adits through barren rock to drain the stopes. The same adits were also used to ventilate the workings, especially important when fire-setting was used. At other parts of the site, they penetrated the water table and dewatered the mines using several kinds of machine, especially reverse overshot water-wheels. These were used extensively in the copper mines at Rio Tinto in Spain, where one sequence comprised 16 such wheels arranged in pairs, and lifting water about 80 feet (24 m). They were worked as treadmills with miners standing on the top slats. Many examples of such devices have been found in old Roman mines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining

Did Roman mining in Spain bring the technology from Egypt? I believe so. What methods could a poor Spaniard use for his mining? Those methods which had as little cost as possible. The cheapest of those being the early type which required manual labor. yes the circular type meant you did not have to back up but remember we are talking about the Spanish who while in 1970 most did not have running water, I can remember having to draw water from the well to flush the toilet. ( this in a recently built house in town and even at eating establishments)
somehiker, I have no idea why you are so fixed on this type of ore processes as this type was seldom used because of it being labor intensive, and what we are calling a Chilean Mill was developed by the Egyptians in 330 B.C. Yes the picture of the one in Spain was more modern, as i could not find a picture of one of the older ones with stone crusher wheels in Spain, however there were some in the link Ed posted.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

This theoretical gold mining is turning out to be such hard work I am beginning to wonder if it is worth all the effort

 

[somehiker]

Ain't it though.....

But I can't see how it helps answer the question as to Jesuit treasures.
Unless sailaway thinks it proves something ?
We already know the missions had smelting facilities at or nearby.
We know the Jesuits had gold and silver and other metals.
We know they were involved in mining to some extent.
What else could the type of refining process tell us, since the Jesuits knew a lot about both mining and refining ?

 

[deducer]

The rangers are believed to have taken the 10-pound statue, a ruby ring, a gold calf and other priceless artifacts during a 1759 raid on a Jesuit mission at an Indian settlement in Quebec. Much of the treasure is still lost today somewhere on the north side of 6,288-foot Mt. Washington.

Throughout the 19th century, treasure hunters prowled the mountains of New Hampshire, and some still come.

Last summer two men sought information about the rangers' path from the Lancaster Historical Society. The pair planned to use a metal detector to hunt the statue.

Father Jacques Monet, director of the Jesuit archives in Toronto, can find no record of the missing artifacts but says it is plausible that they would have been housed at the mission.

"They had these benefactors in Europe who would send these things to the missions," he said.

Loot stolen from Jesuit Mission

 

[sailaway]

I wanted the treasure hunting community to know about the most advanced forms of mining at the time of the Jesuits. Being as it has been said they were the brightest fellows around,It would seem that they would have known of the Chilean Mill and would know that it was the most efficient form of milling ore at the time. This means that somewhere out there in the mountains may be a set of these stone wheels. Now that everyone knows what they look like, it would be easier to spot them. The key to identifying the locations of the Jesuit treasures is knowing what signs could have been left behind. Seeing the top edge of a mill stone might not catch your eye if you did not know that there was such machinery.

 

[UncleMatt]

How would you transport such wheels to remote mountain locations? I doubt they could be transported by anything other than very sturdy carts and large animal teams, assuming existing mountain trails could accommodate that, which is unlikely. You would have to chisel them from native stone on site, which would have been quite a feat!

 

[sailaway]

Can a round stone be cut from native rock? sure it can, its as easy as taking any piece of wood and attaching it at the center and rotate as you chisel. This is also why there may be some around in the mountains as they would be hard to transport, unless you used them as the wheels for your cart. I remember watching a well be dug in Spain, where a rope was lowered from the center of a beam across the top of the well with a stick attached to the rope. This 15 foot stick was the guide for making the hand dug, 30 foot across well round. and for placing the stones for the walls in the well when it was at the water table. The same thing can be done for making the crusher wheels. Many of you might not go to such extremes but the early pioneer Catholics would have years to build such items. If you have a mine that produces a significant amount of ore, why would you not want the best machinery to mill your ore? It is a mine so there would be chisels to do such a job. Yes I would start out with drag stones, but as time went on I would want the best processes to get my gold.
The Molino Chileno (Chilean Mill ) also known as tahona or ta'una. This Mill is composed of two Gigantic Circular Grindstones fitted atop one another, with the upper stone of four tons attached to a central spindle - shaft or axle. The Mill is driven by the circling of draft horses, mule or burro spurred on by a muleskinner's whips and whistles. By the middle of the 1800's, these volcanic grindstones were being replaced.

Mexican Mining Journal, Volumes 19-20

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ce...ge&q=transporting chilean mill stones&f=false

Notice it talks about the hand operated rocker stone version?
http://practicalaction.org/docs/technical_information_service/mineral_processing_milling.pdf

Archaeological finds at the Reed Gold Mine
Apparently parallel alignments of stone have been variously referred to by Babits ...... remarks that the Chilean mill is more expensive to use than the arrastra and ..... The Mill had 12 foot crusher stones and were thought to be capable of carrying a load up to 2 tons per day
http://www.chicora.org/pdfs/RS6 - Reed Gold Mine.pdf

So the Chilean Mill could process in one day what would take weeks of grinding with drag stones.

 

[UncleMatt]

Since huge round arrastra stones would be left behind as evidence when people were done with them because they were so heavy, why have none like that been found in the US from the Jesuit time period? If I am wrong about that, please post evidence to show I am. And my focus isn't on Chile, its on the American Southwest.