JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

HAHAHA

I wonder what I would do if I spoke the words, then a spirit popped up right in front of me? I would hope I had the rest of the incantations to let me have control over it. Wouldn't wanna be out in the middle of the desert with an ornery ghost!

Best-Mike

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

The first thing I would hope, if that happened to me - is that the spirit would have another pair of underwear for me!!

B

 

[Oroblanco]

I think Cactusjumper may be closer to the real purpose of this conjuring than might appear at first glance, for it has nothing to compel the "spirit" to reveal the location of his/her treasures, only this, quote

<from the English translation part>

Who hath condemned thee to frequent this place wherein thou hast buried thy treasure

Very curious indeed, I wonder if it is truly Jesuit in origin?
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

This part is also very curious,

[I summon, require, and compel you, O human spirit,] who frequentest this place, and in thy life hast interred thy treasure herein, who also of recent time, to wit, in the day or night of ...., about the hour of ...., hast shewn thyself in the form of a fire at this spot

...and recall the Amerindian/Mexican folklore connecting mysterious "lights" seen over a spot, believed to be the location of a hidden treasure. Gee, I wonder where they got that peculiar notion.....

I don't wonder that it IS truly Jesuit now.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

This part is also very curious,

[I summon, require, and compel you, O human spirit,] who frequentest this place, and in thy life hast interred thy treasure herein, who also of recent time, to wit, in the day or night of ...., about the hour of ...., hast shewn thyself in the form of a fire at this spot

...and recall the Amerindian/Mexican folklore connecting mysterious "lights" seen over a spot, believed to be the location of a hidden treasure. Gee, I wonder where they got that peculiar notion.....

I don't wonder that it IS truly Jesuit now.
Oroblanco

Beth,

The lights you are talking about have a very old history in mining. Father Nentvig even talks about them in "Rudo Ensayo." He talks about how during the rainy season, flashes are common aids in finding mines.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes Michelle, I do know that - but don't you find it curious, that here is a purported "Jesuit" convocation to a spirit guarding treasures, witnessed in the form of "fire"? I suspect that the Mexican/Indian belief may be rooted in Jesuit teachers, rather than the other way round. Consider if this set of magic incantations originates in Europe, and in Latin - and that these Mexican/Indian peoples that have this belief, are generally the same ones who had Jesuit padres for a time. I find it interesting, trying to find out if such a belief (ghost lights/fires over buried treasures) was also held in Spain/Italy/Germany in the past.

If <on the other hand> the belief system was native to Mexico/southwest USA, something must have led to such a set of incantations being written up and ritual defined to handle it. If the padres did not believe it true, why set up a whole ritual and set of chants to deal with it? Of course this would fly in the face of the Jesuit claims to never, ever had any such treasures or interest in treasures. On the face of it, it does already.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

So we have a common 'superstition' among native peoples in the southwest US/Mexico about mysterious lights or fires being seen over buried treasures, and a Jesuit incantation for dealing with such a situation. Hmmmm.....

BURIED TREASURE
One of the peculiar beliefs that were epidemic during the Middle Ages, especially in Germany, was in the presence of hidden treasure in the earth. The folk-tales of Northern Europe have familiarized every child with the ghostly blue flame that sometimes flickers on the ground above the hiding-place of a hoard.

<Jewish Magic and Superstition, by Joshua Trachtenberg, {1939} pp 225>

Isn't that interesting? A very similar belief, from the Middle Ages and especially Germany, and now where were most of the Jesuit padres serving in Sonora from again?

Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Oro:
And once again we are brought full circle.The Jesuits of the day,from Germany,were considered the best geologists and mining engineers.Not to mention tops in metallurgy.
And what nationality was Georgius Agricola,author of "De re metallica"......but of course
Indeed,why assign so many to Sonora?

Regards:SH.

 

[gollum]

DAMMITT! I keep doing that. Sorry Royleen! It was late when I typed that.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Blue Light Special
Supposedly, mercury (?) vapors emanating from buried gold that emigrate upward through the soil above the cache can become phospherescent when they reach the surface under the proper atmospheric conditions and therefore visible (at night only) as a blue light, resembling a methanol flame. Reportedly, the phenomena best occurs during a time of period of high humidity and electrically-charged air. A summer night with thunderstorms imminent is the classic Mexican description of when this light can be seen. Dig below the blue light and recover the buried gold. Simple.

 

[gollum]

Yes Michelle, I do know that - but don't you find it curious, that here is a purported "Jesuit" convocation to a spirit guarding treasures, witnessed in the form of "fire"? I suspect that the Mexican/Indian belief may be rooted in Jesuit teachers, rather than the other way round. Consider if this set of magic incantations originates in Europe, and in Latin - and that these Mexican/Indian peoples that have this belief, are generally the same ones who had Jesuit padres for a time. I find it interesting, trying to find out if such a belief (ghost lights/fires over buried treasures) was also held in Spain/Italy/Germany in the past.

If <on the other hand> the belief system was native to Mexico/southwest USA, something must have led to such a set of incantations being written up and ritual defined to handle it. If the padres did not believe it true, why set up a whole ritual and set of chants to deal with it? Of course this would fly in the face of the Jesuit claims to never, ever had any such treasures or interest in treasures. On the face of it, it does already.
Oroblanco

Roy/Beth (playing it safe now) ,

I guess its' a "chicken or the egg" argument with this. I know it was used in Europe, but don't know when it started (before or after 1540 or so).

Mike

 

[gollum]

Blue Light Special
Supposedly, mercury (?) vapors emanating from buried gold that emigrate upward through the soil above the cache can become phospherescent when they reach the surface under the proper atmospheric conditions and therefore visible (at night only) as a blue light, resembling a methanol flame. Reportedly, the phenomena best occurs during a time of period of high humidity and electrically-charged air. A summer night with thunderstorms imminent is the classic Mexican description of when this light can be seen. Dig below the blue light and recover the buried gold. Simple.

Springy,

Supposedly, different minerals give off different colored lights. I think that gold lights are based on the high levels of arsenic found in gold bearing areas. I think mercury has its' own color.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Blue Light Special
Supposedly, mercury (?) vapors emanating from buried gold that emigrate upward through the soil above the cache can become phospherescent when they reach the surface under the proper atmospheric conditions and therefore visible (at night only) as a blue light, resembling a methanol flame. Reportedly, the phenomena best occurs during a time of period of high humidity and electrically-charged air. A summer night with thunderstorms imminent is the classic Mexican description of when this light can be seen. Dig below the blue light and recover the buried gold. Simple.

Springy,

Supposedly, different minerals give off different colored lights. I think that gold lights are based on the high levels of arsenic found in gold bearing areas. I think mercury has its' own color.

Mike

Arsenic makes sense too and may also relate to the so-called 'death vapors' that allegedly do in those who enter unventilated sealed tunnels containing cached gold. Another unsubstantiated rumor regarding the 'gold auras' is that they can be captured on the old Polaroid SX film (very hard to find nowadays) if the photo is taken at the correct time of day - sunup supposedly. I actually tried this stunt once with no results. Of course, I later verified that there was no gold where I was looking, so the experiment was doomed from the start. It was a beautiful sunrise though, so all was not lost.

 

[gollum]

I just started a thread on this subject in the mining section so we can get some old time miners' opinions.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes Michelle, I do know that - but don't you find it curious, that here is a purported "Jesuit" convocation to a spirit guarding treasures, witnessed in the form of "fire"? I suspect that the Mexican/Indian belief may be rooted in Jesuit teachers, rather than the other way round. Consider if this set of magic incantations originates in Europe, and in Latin - and that these Mexican/Indian peoples that have this belief, are generally the same ones who had Jesuit padres for a time. I find it interesting, trying to find out if such a belief (ghost lights/fires over buried treasures) was also held in Spain/Italy/Germany in the past.

If <on the other hand> the belief system was native to Mexico/southwest USA, something must have led to such a set of incantations being written up and ritual defined to handle it. If the padres did not believe it true, why set up a whole ritual and set of chants to deal with it? Of course this would fly in the face of the Jesuit claims to never, ever had any such treasures or interest in treasures. On the face of it, it does already.
Oroblanco

Roy/Beth (playing it safe now) ,
I guess its' a "chicken or the egg" argument with this. I know it was used in Europe, but don't know when it started (before or after 1540 or so).

Mike

No offense amigo, we both use oro in the avatar, and both have pups as the image - it is a deliberate attempt to confuse and befuddle everyone and works remarkably well. It is a good test to see how well your reading/comprehension and attention to details are. So far, your score is still passing grade.

I must respectfully disagree about whether the origins are a case of the 'chicken or the egg' (clearly egg wins hands-down) for we have middle-ages folklore in Europe, and no Amerindian importance attached to treasures prior to 1492. I would say that clearly, this seemingly odd superstition originated in central Europe, brought over by Europeans in particular the mostly Germanic Jesuits who were pastors of the flocks of Amerindians and this superstition took root among them. Amerindians did believe in ghosts of course, but had no special importance for gold/treasures.

In a way, this actually supports the contention of Jesuits being directly involved with treasures. Why else would they have come up with a set of instructions and ritual on how to handle the spirit protecting a buried treasure? A side point here but this also casts a bit of a shadow on the Jesuits proud heritage as being great "teachers" instructing the poor Indios in higher learning - for we have an example of what some might view as nothing more than 'Catholicized' black magic. One wonders how the other Orders viewed such ritual and incantations.

No one noticed that the European superstition is traceable to Jewish folklore, rather than Christian; there are similarities between Catholicism and Judaism so perhaps it is not surprising.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Listening and a thunken.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

When I say chicken or the egg, I am referring to Jesuit involvement with the light story. Did the story start before 1540.

Mike

 

[bandit27]

Thanks Guys,
I don't think the Jesuits were interested in protecting with their conjuring something heavenly. They had their hands tied. They were educated beyond any persons level except their peers. In saying that, they knew the history of what had happened to the Templars plus anyone that crossed the King or the Pope. What it comes down to is " He who has the Gold makes the rules".

The Jesuits at that time and their oaths to the Pope or Black Pope I think are right up there with the Masonic Rights and oaths that exist today. This includes the Templars; being a degree of the Masons 33 degrees. "The Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses" covers conjuring and was written by the Jews. This text was available to the Jesuits along with many others. When the Bible was translated to the Goths, Rune symbols with Latin defintions became common to Jesuits in training.384 a d -400 a dThere are three basic degrees of the Masons. Apprentice, Fellow Craft then Master Mason. This is the Blue Lodge known of today. The Templars had four initiation steps (I think). Those steps can be seen in symbols left at sites. Lion, Eagle, Peacock, and Wolf. These symbols are from the steps going up to King Solomons throne. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

I ran across one entry and did not mark it and haven't been able to refind it in the Catholic archives that mentioned the Brothers of St. Thomas joining the Masonic Society. This was completely against Catholic directives from the Pope. What if you had done this before the directive. The oaths you took would still bind and there would be others around you who would want to part of that.

If you had no other choice, the bottom line is that you would put trust in your Faith and your training. You had taken oaths that secured your place in Heaven if you lived up to them. If anyone hasn't read the Jesuit Blood Oath they should.
I have no evidence that Jesuits placed Templar crosses, Pentagrams or the like as a code to direct one of their Brothers back to caches, mines or vaults. But they were the ones who were there and the symbols left behind exist. They had the education and other means (control).
I believe in myself and those talking here. Just as they did then.

JW

 

[Old Dog]

Supposedly, different minerals give off different colored lights. I think that gold lights are based on the high levels of arsenic found in gold bearing areas. I think mercury has its' own color.

Mike

From what I am understanding the color of the mercury vapors are green.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

The subject of luminous gases is quite complex. It has been covered to an extent here in TN before.

It originated in the old world and was exported to the new one. The Jesuits themselves report of it successfully finding treasure and mineral veins. they also gave steps on how to eliminate these gases when hiding a treasure. HMMM, very interesting, no? Now just why would they do that ?

This luminous gas was undoubtedly seen by the Indians, but since it was of no importance to them, they probably did not follow up on it. They had many extremely rich outcroppings available to work for their needs.

Many of the successful mines in the new world, as well as treasures, were found following luminous gases.

When I first embarked in treasure hunting in Mexico, I heard so many tales of luminous gasses indicating where buried metal or mineral veins were, that I embarked upon a campaign to educate these poor, --deleted-- Indians in the facts of life and scientific knowedge.

After finding many tincans, garbage dumps, a few veins, I surrendered when I found a large silver platter with one following the traditonal bluish light for Silver, sigh.

Before anyone asks, yes, the lights did disappear in the areas where I had recovered metal. NO ! I have never found any Gold with lights.

However, I will not go out of my way to check on a light, since it's exit path from a buried mass of metal, is often many meters from the metal itself.

Incidentally, the gas is supposedly similar in color to the metal emiting it, which makes sense if you can understand the process / theory. Golden for Gold, bluish for Silver, Reddish for Cooper, whitish for Iron etc., etc.

Yes, I do know several people that became wealthy through fires, and also lost two treasures by waiting too long and someone else finding them by a %^$$%## fire.

Don Jose de La Mancha