JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I can see how I might read/understand Father Nentvig's words differently than someone who believes as you do.....Can you?

It's quite true that many, if not most, of the missions (Jesuit, Franciscan, Dominican....etc.) were located near Spanish mines. As I have said before, it's possible that the Jesuit's worked, or had them worked, mines in Mexico. I don't see it on the scale that you and many other do. I don't think that makes me stupid.

Hope all is well with you and Beth. Give her a smooch for me, and give the pups an extra treat.....Don't get those instructions mixed up.....you know how you are. Seems like last time that happened you ended up with a scar on your lip.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

For a little history on the beginnings of the Jesuit Order, I would highly recommend "The First Jesuits" by Father John O'Malley.

Some inexpensive copies can be found here: 0674303121 - AbeBooks

There is one copy that is signed.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, you posted--> I don't think that makes me stupid.

Being a true gentleman, I will let that pass on the condition that you produce some coffee.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, you posted--> I don't think that makes me stupid. Being a true gentleman, I will let that pass on the condition that you produce some coffee. Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[deducer]

I realize it will be an exercise in futility, as you will just call the authors liars.
Joe Ribaudo

Please show me where I have done that.

 

[deducer]

As I have said before, it's possible that the Jesuit's worked, or had them worked, mines in Mexico. I don't see it on the scale that you and many other do.

Then I would like to ask you about the precepts declared by Fr. Francisco de Arteaga, and later Fr. Andres Javier Garcia, in which knowledge of mining, directly or indirectly was expressly forbidden, never mind the act of working mines.

If Jesuit mining did not occur on such a large enough scale, then why the need for not one, but two ecclesiastical precepts?

If it had happened on a much smaller scale as you argue that it did, wouldn't it have been better for those Fathers to deal with the particular offenders directly, rather than risk putting word on paper that was to be circulated widely within the Jesuit community?

 

[fmfdoc]

While my own historical knowledge of the SouthWest is limited, I am familiar with the history of the Great lakes region. The Jesuits had a very prominent influence there. The Missions which reached out to the Native populations, also looked after the French trappers in the area, as well. There are a couple written referrences on Jesuits that went missing, as well as "All traces". The trappings of the Ceremonial Mass were, in fact, a large part of the conversion of the natives. The biggest reason the prescious metals were used were two-fold: 1) because it was used in the ceremonies of God, and there is nothing "common" about the mysteries of the Church, and 2) the presciious metals looked better, longer, than base metals (they didn't tarnish/rust with environmental exposure as easily). Two really good referrences are "Bressani's Journal" kept at the University of Wisconsin, which chronicals the mapping of the Great lakes region in the middle 16th Century, and, "Rene Menard's Bibliogragraphy of Jesuit Missions of the Great lakes" which also goes into the Indian Cuture of the region, too!

I would imagine the expansion towards the SouthWest was similar. I'm planning on searching the location of an old mining community, the end of June, in Northern Michigan...... will let you know how THAT turns out!

 

[cactusjumper]

Then I would like to ask you about the precepts declared by Fr. Francisco de Arteaga, and later Fr. Andres Javier Garcia, in which knowledge of mining, directly or indirectly was expressly forbidden, never mind the act of working mines. If Jesuit mining did not occur on such a large enough scale, then why the need for not one, but two ecclesiastical precepts? If it had happened on a much smaller scale as you argue that it did, wouldn't it have been better for those Fathers to deal with the particular offenders directly, rather than risk putting word on paper that was to be circulated widely within the Jesuit community?

deducer,

I can't explain what was in the minds of those folks. I will leave that mind reading to others. I suppose you will have to clarify exactly when those papers were "circulated widely within the Jesuit community". If it was done before the expulsion, I believe that might indeed be risky, depending on the content of the papers. What did you have in mind when you wrote that?

Does having carnal knowledge mean having sexual relations or knowing about the mechanics of the act?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sheesh Joe, blushing, you asked --->Does having carnal knowledge mean having sexual relations or knowing about the mechanics of the act?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stay away form the darker secrets and actions of a lonely, isolated, poor Priest living in a humble (?) church.

It was even worse for one in one of the many clandestine missions used to leap frog precious metal across northern, present Mexico, to the vicinity of present Matamorros on to Rome.

Ya know many of those young Parish gals were/are very toothsome, some still have roots in Alamos, but live in Florida..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[deducer]

I suppose you will have to clarify exactly when those papers were "circulated widely within the Jesuit community". If it was done before the expulsion, I believe that might indeed be risky, depending on the content of the papers. What did you have in mind when you wrote that?

What purpose then, does an ecclesiastical precept serve, if not to be widely circulated?

You will of course recall that Fr. Francisco de Arteaga was the Provincial of New Spain.

Back to the question: if Jesuit mining or Jesuit association with mining did not occur on a widespread scale as is your belief, then why the need for ecclesiastical precepts to deal with this?

 

[deducer]

I would imagine the expansion towards the SouthWest was similar. I'm planning on searching the location of an old mining community, the end of June, in Northern Michigan...... will let you know how THAT turns out!

I, for one, am curious. I look forward to your report.

 

[cactusjumper]

What purpose then, does an ecclesiastical precept serve, if not to be widely circulated? You will of course recall that Fr. Francisco de Arteaga was the Provincial of New Spain. Back to the question: if Jesuit mining or Jesuit association with mining did not occur on a widespread scale as is your belief, then why the need for ecclesiastical precepts to deal with this?

deducer,

I have given you an answer for this question before. It seems obvious that many people believed that the Jesuit Order was involved in mining in Mexico. After the king and his officers heard it enough times, they believed it. You might not like that answer, but it is logical.......if you know the history of the Jesuits.

Once again, I believe the Jesuits did have ownership of a (very) few mines but I don't believe there were enough to create the vast treasures claimed in treasue stories.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

Once again, I believe the Jesuits did have ownership of a (very) few mines but I don't believe there were enough to create the vast treasures claimed in treasue stories.

Joe Ribaudo

Once again, why the need for ecclesiastical precepts, if all they had to deal with were "very few mines?"

 

[Peyton Manning]

Sheesh Joe, blushing, you asked --->Does having carnal knowledge mean having sexual relations or knowing about the mechanics of the act?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stay away form the darker secrets and actions of a lonely, isolated, poor Priest living in a humble (?) church.

It was even worse for one in one of the many clandestine missions used to leap frog precious metal across northern, present Mexico, to the vicinity of present Matamorros on to Rome.

Ya know many of those young Parish gals were/are very toothsome, some still have roots in Alamos, but live in Florida..

Don Jose de La Mancha

young parish gals who were "very toothsome"? I'm 58 and don't know what toothsome means. Please enlighten me?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geeze Jeff, wouldn't ya rather hear how to make top Mexican hill coffee blushing.

However since you did politely ask,and in deference to your young age (kiddie) --->

• toothsome (sexy) - Memidex dictionary/thesaurus www.memidex.com/toothsome+sexy "toothsome" (sexy) definition: having strong sexual appeal. Synonyms: juicy, luscious, red-hot, voluptuous. Similar to: sexy. +Audio pronunciation
• .

• Of course there is the other interpretation that aplies to the situation that I found myself in in the Solomon Islands, The main course was to be a 16 or 17 year old 'toothsome' gal.

• "Epicuryan - Blogger tangbro1.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default ... Kamptal</I><BR>The toothsome mixture of supple squid "noodles ... 15.jpg"

• Nah, I didn't attend, claiming that an evil witch doctor had cast a spell on me so that I couldn't enjoy "Long Mary Kai Kai", They were very sympathetic.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Now about the Coffee

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos - this is a very long reply, as one last attempt to sway the opinion of our amigo Cactusjumper Joe. Some of what I am posting has been posted before but it was easier to do than to hunt up the old posts where they were originally done. So I must ask your indulgence, thank you in advance.


Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,


I can see how I might read/understand Father Nentvig's words differently than someone who believes as you do.....Can you?


It's quite true that many, if not most, of the missions (Jesuit, Franciscan, Dominican....etc.) were located near Spanish mines. As I have said before, it's possible that the Jesuit's worked, or had them worked, mines in Mexico. I don't see it on the scale that you and many other do. I don't think that makes me stupid.

I have never said you were STUPID amigo, as I have never held that opinion of you, rather quite the opposite, which is why your opinion on this particular topic is so hard for me to understand. In fact you are one of the most intelligent men I have ever met, which is what makes this topic all the more baffling to me. I might say you can be STUBBORN, however!


I cited Nentvig's work Rudo Ensayo on purpose, for he made it a point to list the Spanish mines and settlements separately! The properties, including ranches, listed with the Missions, we can then conclude are NOT Spanish but are Mission properties. From that passage cited earlier, read it again - perhaps I can point up the angle.

Aribaca, destroyed in 1751, was an estancia and dependent mission of Guebavi. Two ranches nearby, Sopori and Tucubavi, have remained deserted although the missionary of Guebavi has sent some cattle there, and the mines in the vicinity are being worked.

<Rudo Ensayo>


Aribaca (Arivaca) was an estate and dependent mission of Guebavi (Guevavi). Two ranches nearby, have remained deserted although the missionary of Guebavi sent cattle to them, and the mines in the vicinity are being worked, at the time Nentvig wrote his essay. The ranches are clearly the property of the dependent mission and thus owned by the mission of Guevavi, as are the mines. Why should the mission re-stock ranches they did not own? These very same mines were later mentioned by de Anza in 1774, on passing them, he noted that,

"This place has the advantage of good gold and silver mines which were worked until the year 'sixty seven, <edit, Anza means 1767> when they were abandoned because of greater persecution by the Apaches."

<Diary of Juan Bautista de Anza, Sunday, January 9, 1774>


So the mines that Nentvig mentions right along with the cattle ranches of Guebabi's dependent mission, were abandoned in 1767. What happened in 1767? The Jesuits were expelled! No Apache raid or Pima rebellion, the padres left and presto, the very mines listed as property of a dependent mission for Guevavi are suddenly abandoned.


What about Matape? A Jesuit college was located there, one especially richly furnished with silver ornaments. Father Polzer, famous and highly accredited historian of the southwest, known to chuckle at any mention of Jesuit mines, said, quote

“San José de Mátape, situated at the headwaters of the Río Mátape in central Sonora, never enjoyed the prominence of being one of the major Indian centers in the Jesuit mission system of northwestern New Spain. From the time of the first recorded visit to the village in 1622 to the final gathering of the exiled Sonoran Jesuits in 1767, the mission's importance fluctuated with the fortunes of Indian inhabitants and shifts in Jesuit strategy for the conversion of the north…. it was the earliest Sonora mission to be designated a collegium inchoatum (incipient college), a status it maintained throughout the greater part of its history.”

<, Polzer, The Jesuit Mission>


Any mention of the silver mines being operated by the Jesuit priests stationed at Matape? Nope. Yet, West found out about it, (thinking it the ONLY such operation) and wrote

"In at least one documented case, the relationship between missionaries and miners in connection with food supply resulted in a singular activity on the part of the priests. Mining in sonora was not limited entirely to lay Spaniards. The Jesuits of Matape mission also engaged in the extraction and refining of silver ores from deposits near Tecoripa, not far from San Miguel Arcangel. According to the rules of the Jesuit order, priests were forbidden to own, operate, or even knowledge of mining. But apparently ownership of the mines in question had been signed over to the mission by a Spanish miner in payment for debts he incurred for supplies obtained from the padres. Moreover, the priests claimed that the mines belonged to the College of San Jose at Matape, not to the mission itself, and thus the superiors permitted continuation of the "forbidden" activity. During the late seventeenth century, annual proceeds from the Tecoripa mines under church management ranged from three thousand to twelve thousand pesos, a substantial windfall for the college and the missionaries. "

<Sonora: its geographical personality by Robert Cooper West, pp 62>


To prove that the silver mines supporting the college at Matape were NOT the only mines owned OPENLY by the Jesuits (just very quietly) remember what was listed in the study mentioned earlier, quote

"Some capital was also placed in non-agricultural enterprises. The most significant were the mines which provided the sole support of the college of Zacatecas.<snip>


This occurred, for example, in the case of the mines belonging to the college of Zacatecas. The assessors appraised them in 1773 and gave them a value of 365,000 pesos but because of renewed vigor in the mining industry in Zacatecas, the officials conducted a reappraisal in 1780 and increased their value to 730,000 pesos."

<The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, 1670-1767 Author(s): James D. Riley; Source: The Americas, Vol. 33, No. 2 (Oct., 1976), pp. 226-266 Published by: Catholic University of America Press on behalf of Academy of American Franciscan History pp 243, 245>


Just for good measure, I will add this - the author James Riley also stated, quote

"The Jesuits had three kinds of investments, urban rental property, interest bearing notes, and commercial ventures such as haciendas, mines, obrajes and retail stores which they exploited themselves."

<ibid, pp 242>
To this we can add the mines of Pozos, the mines owned by the California Fund, which itself was Jesuit owned. The Jesuits owned a number of mines and yet none of our modern Jesuit apologists ever mention them!


If none of this is "convincing" to you Joe, I don't know what would be. We could again post the lavish and very valuable decorations described at the Jesuit (and Franciscan for that matter) mission churches and even the visitas, despite being in buildings made of humble adobe mud, which decorations are nowhere to be seen when the Franciscan padres arrived in 1768 to take over. In fact their inventory found very little of value at any of the former Jesuit missions, for example not one silver statue of the Madonna, though this is specifically mentioned by several Jesuits as being one solid silver statue (size not given, so perhaps not large) in EVERY mission church and visita in Sonora including Pimeria Alta.

Would it help if you were to read the story of the lost Wandering Jew mine, and how the Americans found Jesuit documents in an old mission and then found the mine, followed by my taking you to the Wandering Jew mine so you can stand in it? Or the Salero? Or the Ostrich? (also known as the Old Padres mine, reportedly the first silver mine discovered by the Jesuits in Arizona) It would be a fun field trip, and heck I will even do the cooking if that might help.


The Jesuits and their apologists of today are to put things bluntly, lying about their history in the Southwest, rather a whitewash job is all we are supposed to see. I don't know what you think the "scale" of Jesuit and Franciscan mining activity was, but it was certainly larger than incidental, using apparently fairly large amounts of quicklime to crack the rock and fairly large smelting activity at Guevavi. Not mining on a vast scale, but more than a "little". I do not propose that any Jesuit mission had thousands of Indians working at their mines daily, for a good part of the available manpower had to be used for working the fields and livestock to support the population. We know that the Jesuits made use of trusted Opata (and other tribes) overseers to keep the Pimas and Papagos at their work, and not Spaniards.


One last thing - I do understand that your opinion may be affected by what I call the Santa Claus syndrome; for when we stop believing in Santa, it is almost impossible to believe again, no matter what evidence is presented. However you have stated repeatedly, that you keep the door open, and consider each new piece of evidence/document and/or argument. I would have thought that your views would have shifted (pole-shift) at the actual listed mines owned by the Jesuits, considering how much denial and silence of recent decades about them, plus the NOT-lost mines, and for that matter just what is NOT found for we know that the product of gold and silver mines is gold and silver, and very little of either has ever been found that can be traced to the Jesuit mines. When considered in the light of their subversive plotting which led to their downfall in Spanish America, and add to this that the former Indians of their missions tell us that the Jesuits hid vast treasures, I don't see how one can continue to view it all as if it were practically nothing.


Cactusjumper also wrote

Hope all is well with you and Beth. Give her a smooch for me, and give the pups an extra treat.....Don't get those instructions mixed up.....you know how you are. Seems like last time that happened you ended up with a scar on your lip.

And a dent in the cranium! To our readers - don't believe all those web sites that claim that all Huskies are super friendly, will never bark, never fight and never bite! My wife and I have the scars to prove those claims wrong! We are doing very well, been extremely busy of late as we have added to our work which I will explain in an email later, even the weather here has been cooperating. This year of 2014 has been very different for us, in a positive way so far.


Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Loke]

@deducer.
You said:

As I have just said, the size of anyone's library does not matter to me as much as that person's ability to research in an efficient manner that is beneficial to me and others.

I do not believe that any research needs to be 'beneficial to you or others'.
Research is something we do for ourselves to scratch an itch or because we are seriously interested in the subject. As far as I know - unless the research is a sponsored one - there is no obligation to share the results.
Granted - we might 'slip in' pieces of it on TN to see what reaction we get ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I haven't believed in Santa Clause since I reached the age of reason......which was very young in my case.

You make the best argument for (extensive) Jesuit mining, by far. I will wait for the first (authenticated) evidence before capitulating.

Over the years I have spoken and corresponded with a number of historians and archaeologists. They have all stated that Jesuit treasure, as related in the treasure world, is a myth. I have great respect for those people, just as I do for you. You are, first and foremost, a treasure hunter/prospector. It may be that your Santa Clause Syndrome also applies to you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

@deducer.
You said:

I do not believe that any research needs to be 'beneficial to you or others'.
Research is something we do for ourselves to scratch an itch or because we are seriously interested in the subject. As far as I know - unless the research is a sponsored one - there is no obligation to share the results.
Granted - we might 'slip in' pieces of it on TN to see what reaction we get ...

No doubt.. some of us have found things in our research that we wouldn't share online.

But when you do post online, you are presumably doing so to share facts that you found with other people.

So it does not help when someone makes a blanket statement such as "After the king and his officers heard it enough times, they believed it," without providing source for it. It forces me to then treat that statement as pure conjecture.

 

[deducer]

Hola amigos - this is a very long reply, as one last attempt to sway the opinion of our amigo Cactusjumper Joe.

I hope that this won't be your last attempt. I enjoy reading your very informative posts.

I do not have any hope of changing Joe's opinions, but this does not stop me from debating or discussing with him. He frequently generates interesting discussions, and has provoked many excellent posts that otherwise would not have been posted. For that, I am grateful to him.

My purpose in debating with him or with others, or presenting evidence or speculating here, as far as the real purpose of the Jesuit expansion into the Southwest, is to solidify arguments that I may have to make elsewhere at another time that will have far more ramifications than on here.